A different duck search question.....

[jlp8cornell]

Does anyone start duck work before the dog is finished with his FF? My guy is about 2/3 of the way through FF and so for now, I am just tossing bumpers and having fun.

I am hiding dead birds in my yard and telling him to 'find it' and doing that kind of search exercise.

Anything else I can do in the water in the meantime?

[crackerd]

What you're doing won't hurt you for the duck search but it's not really applicable. If the dog's retrieving the ducks, that's very good, and you should expand on that by having it retrieve them from the water. If I had a nickel for the NAVHDA dogs I've seen that didn't want to/wouldn't retrieve the duck during a duck search, I wouldn't be rich but I could buy a couple of good bottles of wine to drown the handlers' sorrow.

Introducing the dog to retrieving in the water gets beyond that hitch and also lets the dog get familiar with water retrieves, including, someday, a shackled duck. Unless you don't want the dog to retrieve the duck so you have to get judged not just on the search but the retrieve as well and also may have to resend your dog without a shot. You, and your dog, need to aim higher and think beyond that.

Good luck,

MG

[jlp8cornell]

You, and your dog, need to aim higher and think beyond that.

MG- I have been told we should do water retrieves with birds until he is done with his FF. So what are your thoughts??

[crackerd]

Should or shouldn't do water retrieves until the dog is through FF, jlp?

You'll get varying answers on this, and you'll get answers that vary according to what you're aiming to accomplish with force fetch, and regrettably to my thinking, answers that vary according to what breed you're forcing. Some trainers discontinue marks altogether while the dog is undergoing FF. They reason that there's no ammunition if the dog refuses a retrieve.

I don't adhere to that notion because as I've said, my dogs are all retrieving to hand before I start force fetch. That makes FF so much easier to begin with, when a dog has to understand only why it's being forced to retrieve--which is to teach it to shut off pressure by responding to the Fetch! command and concurrent ear pinch. (We are not forcing it to get it to retrieve.)

If your dog's retrieving from water and happy about it, especially ducks, don't stop it during force fetch. However, during FF, it might be prudent if throwing marks to meet the dog at water's edge and take the duck from the dog rather than having it get out of the water, drop the bird and shake off.

Good luck--except against Army this weekend ,

MG

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Remember, the duck search doesn't necessarily result in a retrieve. Just as it's named, your dog is being evaluated on its search and ability to expand as needed. I think a lot depends on what command you plan to give your dog when you send him on the search. If you are planning to use "find it" like you are in the yard, then he won't associate it with a required retrieve. However, if you use "fetch" as your send command and he is fully broke, he should retrieve the duck, if found.

Much like any other taks you are training for, there should be incremental steps when progressing through duck search training.

Now if a chase ensues and the duck must be shot, the dog must retireve the shot duck.

[jlp8cornell]

I mis-typed- I was first told NO ducks until FF is done. But...by another trainer was told I need to start exposing him to ducks. I tend to think it is better to expose him now. So, if I am to start a step by step process....where do I start. I would like him to start to understand the search process in the water as he does in the field.

Thanks! Jen

[crackerd]

You don't start the search until the dog's been force fetched. You do start with live ducks at that time. Otherwise, if you use live ducks before FF, you've got no ammo when the dog blinks a live duck even while swimming after it, by refusing to retrieve it.

You keep on throwing marks--dead ducks--for the dog to retrieve from water for exposure to them. And if you're worried about delivery, do as suggested above as the dog's returning to shore with the bird.

And why you don't start the duck search until after force fetch is down to what switchgrass WPG noted

if you use "fetch" as your send command and he is fully broke, he should retrieve the duck, if found.

--"Fetch!" is the retrieving command that takes you through force fetch and should not be used before, or it loses impact when given and makes it tougher for the dog to understand it as a command, "the" command, during force fetch.

MG

[jlp8cornell]

Thanks MG. Now I just have a find a dead duck!

[crackerd]

Easily done--get through to these folks http://leatherstockinghrc.tripod.com/ or give Mr Combs of NYSAES-Cornell a call at 315-787-2341.

MG

[jlp8cornell]

Good idea. the Cornell group you linked is about an hour from main campus where i am but they usually make runs back and forth. Thanks for the ideas. I have a freezer full of dead chukkars but no ducks!