6 month GSP loves birds (little too much)

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Sun May 16, 2010 6:47 pm

Took my gsp out today to run a couple birds. 1st bird out she nails point and holds for 5-8 seconds then jumps toward the bird and he is gone! Problem is, she chases the bird for a couple minutes barking at him. I know she is young, and I am thinking its a maturity issue that will come in time she will stop this action. Should I correct it now or let her enjoy the birds? She has massive potential and I am having a ball watchin her mature on birds. She will be 7 months in 2 weeks. Would it be time to start a whoa training program on her? She wont hold point long-especially if the bird makes any moves. Any help would be great.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun May 16, 2010 9:29 pm

Thats about when I pull them off birds before bad habits start. My dogs I will run birdless for the most part until they mature enough to start the formal training.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon May 17, 2010 5:04 am

There is NO value in letting a dog that age chase birds. Some will tell you it teaches them they can't catch birds and they'll stop on their own. I can tell you right now, some NEVER stop and never tire of trying to catch that bird. You should be running the dog with a cc on it. When it chases the bird, just hit two quick blasts on the whistle, which for me means "NO", and snub him up on the cc. Now in a couple of harmless lessons you've taught him what the whistle means and not to chase birds. It will make steadying him to flush much easier.

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Mon May 17, 2010 8:50 am

Or you just whoa break the dog... I'll post a video sometime soon of a 6 month old I have right now, steady through shot... and I mean steady...

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Mon May 17, 2010 11:26 am

desertcountrygsp wrote:Took my gsp out today to run a couple birds. 1st bird out she nails point and holds for 5-8 seconds then jumps toward the bird and he is gone! Problem is, she chases the bird for a couple minutes barking at him. I know she is young, and I am thinking its a maturity issue that will come in time she will stop this action. Should I correct it now or let her enjoy the birds? She has massive potential and I am having a ball watchin her mature on birds. She will be 7 months in 2 weeks. Would it be time to start a whoa training program on her? She wont hold point long-especially if the bird makes any moves. Any help would be great.

Are these wild birds?

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Mon May 17, 2010 11:54 am

Are these wild birds?[/quote]

Ridge--They are actually my pigeons I use to train with. We head outside of town where she can run and they fly back home after they have been used.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Mon May 17, 2010 2:17 pm

desertcountrygsp wrote:Ridge--They are actually my pigeons I use to train with. We head outside of town where she can run and they fly back home after they have been used.

Are you using carded birds, or launchers? If you are using launchers then your pup will probably stop chasing on his own. Since you are training offsite of your coop, those birds are getting up and getting gone. I would be suprised if your pup continued much longer, especially with the weather getting warmer.

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Mon May 17, 2010 2:33 pm

Are you using carded birds, or launchers? If you are using launchers then your pup will probably stop chasing on his own. Since you are training offsite of your coop, those birds are getting up and getting gone. I would be suprised if your pup continued much longer, especially with the weather getting warmer

Carded for now. I am in the process of buying a launcher. We are hitting the 80's for our temp now. I had 5 birds yesterday and she chased everyone of them. Tongue hanging out and running flat out. I am trying to find a whoa program that would work for us. We may not have the chance to train everyday, but most days. I'm not a field trial guy, I just want a good hunting partner. Maybe its also time to start with the e-collar in the yard?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon May 17, 2010 3:09 pm

whoa break the dog now....

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Mon May 17, 2010 5:57 pm

desertcountrygsp wrote:
Are you using carded birds, or launchers? If you are using launchers then your pup will probably stop chasing on his own. Since you are training offsite of your coop, those birds are getting up and getting gone. I would be suprised if your pup continued much longer, especially with the weather getting warmer
Carded for now. I am in the process of buying a launcher. We are hitting the 80's for our temp now. I had 5 birds yesterday and she chased everyone of them. Tongue hanging out and running flat out. I am trying to find a whoa program that would work for us. We may not have the chance to train everyday, but most days. I'm not a field trial guy, I just want a good hunting partner. Maybe its also time to start with the e-collar in the yard?

Have you introduced the dog to gunfire? If not then get that done while your pup is still in chase mode. After that perfect your yard work (including the e-collar when she is ready). Introduce it in the yard, then take her out where you train her on birds and do it there. Every couple times you go out put a pigeon out there just to keep her really hunting hard every time you go out. At 6 months I want my pups handling like a dream.

If you can get two launchers I would really recommend it. It opens up some really good training scenerios if you have more than one.

Like Brenda said above, you could take your dog off birds once you intro gunfire. If you don't have anything to train for on birds, then alot of times you just create bad habits. Once your yard work is solid at home and in the field, you can decide how and when to break her, if that's what you decide to do.

My wife has a 4 year old that has never been on a pen raised bird or pigeon. Only wild birds and only during hunting season. He knows fetch,here, and kennel. He has never had any formal training on birds, does not know how to whoa. I am not allowed to do any training with him because he is her dog and she wants to do it her way. That dog holds his points to the fall every time and retrieves to hand every time. We have shot quite a few chukar over him the past 3 years (even with the poor bird numbers). You can create a nice dog without using birds in the offseason.

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Mon May 17, 2010 8:49 pm

I introduced her yesterday to a 22 shot. She did good. She stopped and looked to see what happened. She wasent scared at all. For a first day, not too bad. Going to try it again tomorrow.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue May 18, 2010 4:18 am

If you whoa break the dog and use whoa around birds, she'll never learn to reliably point them. A launcher will be your best friend for teaching her steadiness.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Tue May 18, 2010 6:47 am

A checkcord on that dogs neck, will help you.
Its way of doing things right now, isnt doing anything to help you or the dog...so the dog is being independent, and doing what it wants, because it can.

Your mouth, and the ecollar are crutches in this situation with dogs. There isnt any need in shocking it to, or telling it to point.
Let the dog figure things out itself, with your guidance, and things will get back to normal.
Take an dizzy a pigeon, set it up where the bird can get good few of things, and has an easy exscape route. I dont care if the dog can see it right now, dizzy the bird up, and walk the dog into the area, when it shows it sees, or smells the bird........you watch the dog reactions, it will prolly flash point for a sec, an then wanna go in an put it in the air...........you an it go in an fly it. Now, here is what will help you an it figure things out. The checkcord, should be about 20 ft or so, this will allow you to let it feed to the dog, slide threw your hands.........you give it enough cord to bump the bird, and thats it.........no chase, you hold onto the cord an your footing, and the dog doesnt go anywhere forward.....will prolly go right....or left ..........or might even step backwards........it wants to go, and is trying to figure out a way that it can, dont allow it at this point. No walking forward, even when everything is calm, walk yuourself up hand over hand to where the dog is standing....pet just a bit, tap and turn oppisite way of the birds flight, and put it up. Let it think about what happened for today. You were not involved, because you werent talking, dog caused the problem, and the dog didnt get to play after the problem was caused.....this kept things on the dogs table of understanding. I bet ya it'[ll act different tomorrow. Might not be a huge difference, but I bet you will see some. Some dogs fix real fast an some dont, you stay consistant, and it will fix. Thanks Jonesy

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 am

Heres a couple videos of what she is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITagj6roi5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmK4EV9C4Qo

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:11 pm

This is not good..He is learning he can crowd the bird and that Whoa means go get 'em. I agree with Jonsey on keeping him on a CC. Jonsey explained the best way to get him holding point without a launcher. If you had a launcher it would need popping as soon as your pup made scent, but the pup is able to keep moving in on the bird until he is about to catch it, and he will learn how to get good at it at this rate. DO NOT say Whoa. If it were my dog he would not see another bird until I was ready to steady him. Yard work thru the summer, let him grow up some, then come back with a plan.

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Tue May 18, 2010 3:16 pm

snips wrote:This is not good..He is learning he can crowd the bird and that Whoa means go get 'em. I agree with Jonsey on keeping him on a CC. Jonsey explained the best way to get him holding point without a launcher. If you had a launcher it would need popping as soon as your pup made scent, but the pup is able to keep moving in on the bird until he is about to catch it, and he will learn how to get good at it at this rate. DO NOT say Whoa. If it were my dog he would not see another bird until I was ready to steady him. Yard work thru the summer, let him grow up some, then come back with a plan.

Thanks for the good info. This is exactly what I needed. I knew you guys would pull through for me. Im working on the launchers right now. Was planning on yard work this week, but high winds expected.......again!!!! Thanks to all! Keep the info coming if you have it. Im open to suggestions!

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Tue May 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Bird needs to be loose, because if your timing is off, the dog is still in a not learning mode. He/she will figure out that dad has control an it will do what it can to play with, and in the situation. Traps will kick in lil bit later, for now get the dog doing things on its own. It wont figure things out if you have bird control at this point of the game. It will smell, see, look at, whatever on the traps, it will figure out whats up. With a dog always remember, they will read your eyes, voice, and touch, always wether or not neg. or pos. it will be read, someway. Your timing with things, and on things is a major also. You think on it.....as a kid, mom or dad....says dont touch that its hot.........keeps saying whole time your around, and whats the first thing you do, when they turn their back??........touch it to see how hot it is. Experience is the best teacher.
In the situation we are talking on, its the dogs fault bird is in the air, and it doesnt get to chase an play anymore. This bit of experience situation, will help it understand things a lil better, without folding the dog up by mouth or hands. Thanks Jonesy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed May 19, 2010 8:17 am

Has that dog had ANY yard work? Keep in on a cc for sure. The dog is just running wild out there. Do you have any other place to plant birds? When you plant in that type of country, scent is very bad due to dryness and tends to rebound off the sage brush. Try and alfalfa field it there's one around and keep the dog under control!

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Wed May 19, 2010 8:34 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Has that dog had ANY yard work? Keep in on a cc for sure. The dog is just running wild out there. Do you have any other place to plant birds? When you plant in that type of country, scent is very bad due to dryness and tends to rebound off the sage brush. Try and alfalfa field it there's one around and keep the dog under control!

Honestly, she has done great with her yard work. She is only 6 months in age. I have limited training knowledge, thats why I am here to get info from you guys. Her yard work is excelling everyday. Heeling and retrieving are coming in great. Im going to keep her on the cc for sure from now on.

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Wed May 19, 2010 9:35 am

NOTHING is important unless a dog can whoa....

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed May 19, 2010 9:41 am

Whoa IS important...But this is still a pup!!!

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Wed May 19, 2010 9:51 am

snips wrote:Whoa IS important...But this is still a pup!!!

+1. I have tried the whoa training with her, but I think she is still a bit too young. She will hold while attached at the neck and flank but I dont think she understands the concept quite yet. Heeling is coming along great for her. Just trying to build that bond where she listens to my voice right now. I may get serious with the whoa post next month or two....

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Thu May 20, 2010 4:44 pm

Whoa doesn't always require intense pressure on a dog.

This is my pup from Nathan Phillips. As of today, she is 5 months and 15 days. Whoa broke on a barrel, and a lot of repetitions... transferred to the e collar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufyM0ziH3A

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Thu May 20, 2010 6:20 pm

kylenicholas02 wrote:Whoa doesn't always require intense pressure on a dog.

This is my pup from Nathan Phillips. As of today, she is 5 months and 15 days. Whoa broke on a barrel, and a lot of repetitions... transferred to the e collar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufyM0ziH3A

Kyle, looks good. I got a training video today and they recommend the barrel method. I started her today on whoa training. She is doing good. She didnt fight the post. If I get a barrel, do I need something above her to tie her off or use the same method as on the ground?

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri May 21, 2010 9:36 am

Videos will tell a person alot. I do not want this to feel as I am pointing fingers or trying to stir contraversy, I am not attempting or trying to do in way, shape, or form. I will advise on lookers to what your watching an how it doesnt have anything to do with this style or reasoning of the fix. So they can keep their heads straight as to what I am saying on the whoa stuff and this style of fix.

Ok, so the dog is whoa broke on the barrel, dead whoa broke I believe you said, so if it has done such a good job, why has it lost it tail when you went to the ground? A dog always reads the voice, eyes, and touch. Look at how the dog is holding herself in the work shown.....to me says " Oh Crap, Dad is gonna get me" If it doesnt, she would hold her tail high and confident.........because you two have went threw all this, and she has had enough time to understand your whats and whys. An in the video she shows it, by her tail in a non-scenting situation.
Now, it has lost its tail, because if it hasnt, the tail would be held higher.......now watching the video, it isnt pointing the bird, if it was, birds fly in the wind, and grass moves when the wind is blowing, the bird flys across the front of the dog at a large distance, and the grass doesnt move during the video shoot. Plus the dog would have a stronger tendancy to not look away from the flush, when it has been scenting the bird.
Ok, if the dog is so broke and this has helped so much in her work, why isnt there any free run prior to what has been demonstrated? Why is the bird still trapped? The biggest question with the whoa work, and it being so great for the fix of the other person........why arent you in front of the dog, during the flush or simulation of the flush? Why isnt she pointing, or being allowed to point? She is broke, why arent you continuing on to the next level?
Desertcountrygsp, you do things the way you want, I was only trying to help with the non - pointing fix. The road your going down, hasnt got anything to do with why your dog isnt pointing. Sorry, your not closer to me, I would be happy to help show you what and why. Thanks Jonesy

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Fri May 21, 2010 10:25 am

tailcrackin wrote:Videos will tell a person alot. I do not want this to feel as I am pointing fingers or trying to stir contraversy, I am not attempting or trying to do in way, shape, or form. I will advise on lookers to what your watching an how it doesnt have anything to do with this style or reasoning of the fix. So they can keep their heads straight as to what I am saying on the whoa stuff and this style of fix.

Ok, so the dog is whoa broke on the barrel, dead whoa broke I believe you said, so if it has done such a good job, why has it lost it tail when you went to the ground? A dog always reads the voice, eyes, and touch. Look at how the dog is holding herself in the work shown.....to me says " Oh Crap, Dad is gonna get me" If it doesnt, she would hold her tail high and confident.........because you two have went threw all this, and she has had enough time to understand your whats and whys. An in the video she shows it, by her tail in a non-scenting situation.
Now, it has lost its tail, because if it hasnt, the tail would be held higher.......now watching the video, it isnt pointing the bird, if it was, birds fly in the wind, and grass moves when the wind is blowing, the bird flys across the front of the dog at a large distance, and the grass doesnt move during the video shoot. Plus the dog would have a stronger tendancy to not look away from the flush, when it has been scenting the bird.
Ok, if the dog is so broke and this has helped so much in her work, why isnt there any free run prior to what has been demonstrated? Why is the bird still trapped? The biggest question with the whoa work, and it being so great for the fix of the other person........why arent you in front of the dog, during the flush or simulation of the flush? Why isnt she pointing, or being allowed to point? She is broke, why arent you continuing on to the next level?
Desertcountrygsp, you do things the way you want, I was only trying to help with the non - pointing fix. The road your going down, hasnt got anything to do with why your dog isnt pointing. Sorry, your not closer to me, I would be happy to help show you what and why. Thanks Jonesy

Come on Jonesy, just buy a plane ticket and fly out!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri May 21, 2010 11:04 am

Whats your thoughts on the method Wehle shows in Wing and Shot?

Dog on a check led into 3 or 4 launchers then made to stand for each flush....Never really knowing
is there another bird.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri May 21, 2010 11:24 am

I work dogs with what works for me. The video hasnt got a thing to do with helping a dog point, and it shows how mentally ready that dog is, or was, for the whoa work.
Myself, I dont teach it, I do things that allows the dog to figure out that the bird is whoa. You put a dog in a successful environment, and it will be successful. What you work with a dog today, should benefit you for tommorrow.
Whoa hasnt got a thing to do with pointing, it is feet movement, I will not tell a dog to point, I will teach it to, or help it understand how. You do things with dogs when they show you they are ready to understand it, and you never loose the tail or the style. Patience always pays off with dogs, they will teach you alot if you stop an read what they say, that dont happen with most, everyone in to big a hurry to show off, or brag on the dog. Which is an unfortunate thing for the dogs. IMO Thanks Jonesy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri May 21, 2010 11:40 am

tailcrackin wrote: Patience always pays off with dogs, they will teach you alot if you stop an read what they say, that dont happen with most, everyone in to big a hurry to show off, or brag on the dog. Which is an unfortunate thing for the dogs. IMO Thanks Jonesy

That's one heck of a quote Jonesy!! Should be engraved on most owner's arms!! Nice job on analyzing the video.

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Fri May 21, 2010 12:23 pm

I'll preface this by saying that I'm searching for instruction, cause I just don't see the issues claimed about that pup in the vid. His tail is up and he seems to be eager to me. I don't see any lack of enthusiasm or fear of reprimand myself. Not trying to pick a scab for the poster of the vid, either.

My ES pup of 4 months has had NO formal training so far. Just walks where he's allowed to explore and learn to keep me in mind while he's out there. I will add that I do have enough of a handle on him that he isn't just running wild to his heart's content. He frequently points things like butterflies and such, and neither his tail, nor many dogs that I've seen is strait up. Sometimes it is strait behind him. Since he's had absolutely NO whoa training or styling done yet, I know he hasn't "lost his tail" due to fear of reprimand, cause he's not been reprimanded at all. I find it fairly hard to believe that that could be said of a trainer and his dog by watching a 12 second clip where the dog isn't in frame for half of it. I know a lot of you guys want that tail strait up and style and all that, but I don't think a dog is ugly or worthless with his tail at some angle less than 12 o'clock. Where am I wrong?

Sorry for getting off topic. As to the original poster with the running wild GSP, I agree with most everyone and say you need a check cord and some control on that dog before you make your work a lot harder. He sure ain't hunting for you.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri May 21, 2010 12:58 pm

Just for reference Dan,

Your dogs tail is probably not letting down from pressure, but he probably hasn't showed you yet what he will look like on point over a bird....that takes some time.

This is my dog on a bird.

This is same dog on the bench, the difference and why should be apparent.

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Fri May 21, 2010 1:30 pm

Has anyone really used the barrel or bench method and had great results with it? I wonder if there is a difference in outcome vs the ground style.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri May 21, 2010 1:40 pm

The bench method is easier because the dog is out of his element. It's easier for you to control the dog, and in ff, easier on your back.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Fri May 21, 2010 2:07 pm

I went back in time a couple months for some more info. http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 89&t=22725

So we know that back in March the dog was allowed to point wing clipped pigeons and then retrieve them after a futile attempt to fly away. That was not very long ago. What you have now is a bird crazy dog (which is good) that wants to get a bird in her mouth.

desertcountrygsp wrote:Im going to keep her on the cc for sure from now on.

If you are going to continue using carded pigeons, you could guide the dog crosswind into the scent cone. Allow the dog to establish a point, and then restrain the dog from chasing the bird once it is flushed.

The problem with that is, you only have control when you are holding the cord, you have no control when you are not. I personally don't like adding control you cannot enforce. To me that means hunting season. Are you going to go out looking for quail in the desert holding on to your 20' check cord?

Whatever training you decide to do with this pup, if you don't enforce it during the season she will learn quickly that there are 2 sets of rules.

If this dog were mine, I would probably get 2 launchers and start popping pigeons on any movement once a point is established. If she creeps the first bird go's up, if she chases the second one follows. If I didn't have launchers I probably would wait till hunting season and let the quail do all that work for me.

desertcountrygsp · Post by **desertcountrygsp** » Fri May 21, 2010 3:06 pm

R-P, I actually just purchased 2 launchers today. Both used, but in great working order. I am planning to do a little more yard work 1st then start utilizing the launchers. Do you have any videos demonstrating this type of training. I understand how to do it, I just like to see it to make 100% sure I'm doing it right.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Fri May 21, 2010 4:01 pm

desertcountrygsp wrote:R-P, I actually just purchased 2 launchers today. Both used, but in great working order. I am planning to do a little more yard work 1st then start utilizing the launchers. Do you have any videos demonstrating this type of training. I understand how to do it, I just like to see it to make 100% sure I'm doing it right.

I don't own a video that covers it very well. I'm sure there are a million posts on this board (and others) that cover many ideas on how to use them. You might try the Maurice Lindley training seminar DVD http://www.higginsgundogs.com/store.htm I have not purchased that one yet, but heard good things.

Couple tips on using them. Always pop the bird before there is any chance your dog can run up on it. Pick a distance and pop the bird if your dog is inside that distance from the launcher, be consistant with it. When in doubt launch the bird. Try not to overuse the launchers, if you don't have anything to train then just go for a walk and work on obedience in your training grounds. Don't say much to the dog, let the birds do the work. Don't say whoa unless you really mean it and can enforce the command. Set your launchers out and allow time for a scent cone to build.

Try to get her holding a point long enough for you to walk up and grab the check cord. Right now you have no control even with a check cord on, if she will hold point long enough for you to grab it you will have control. You can plant two launchers together to teach her the concept of a covey. You can plant two launchers far apart to teach her there are more birds to find and chasing is a waste of time. If she won't give up chasing you can grab the check cord and start moving her off to another bird.

If you are in a bind and don't know what to do, there is nothing wrong with taking your dog off birds for awhile while you figure out what to do next.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri May 21, 2010 4:06 pm

Birddog1968 , your pictures have not got anything to do with the non pointing issues on this topic, or I guess they do, your dog looks nice posing in the woods, and looks nice posing while being ff. No p'ing match now I hope.
The work can be done any style that you want to do it with. I have no dog in that fight, and I havent told you how to do your stuff or guide you to a certain style. I have told you what to do on the fix, it is exactly what I say on any board, with someone in this situation.
The barrel style is fine if ya like it.......one thing to remember the dog will never be on a barrel in its life pointing, so why teach it there? When ya get done there, you get to go to the ground.....and reteach.....then go to the field and reteach, I guess I am lazy, I teach it once, in the field on the ground. No biggie, it just works for me. The whoa post style is fine if you like it. There are alot of negatives that could come from anything when you get in a hurry to do this before the dog is ready, or had enough experience to show that its ready. I guess the puppy teeth are gone? I see where this is trying or wanting to go, and I will bow out. Every post I have made on here is dealing with the non pointing issue that this topic is about. I always look out for the dogs, and try an help guide or explain why things are happening. Everything that happens with a dog, is for a reason.....positive or negative, its for a reason. Never be to big to sit down and think on things, when its not the reason you expected. I hope it all works out well. Sorry that I even offered some advise to fix the non pointing problem. Thanks Jonesy

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Fri May 21, 2010 4:24 pm

Train how you hunt, we break the dogs right on the ground pointing quail! no barrels or tables! I got to agree with Tailcrackin, he knows his stuff from what I have read.

Personally I would put the dog up for a few months and show it no birds, just let it mature. Too many birds is much worse than too few from my experience. Around a year+ I would put him on birds with a CC, then a pinch collar, then an ecollar and break the dog!! Its not rocket science! Another thing, WHOA is a great thing for the dog to know, but when you are breaking him say nothing, the dog should stop and stay their because of the bird not because of you, keep your mouth shut!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri May 21, 2010 4:59 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Birddog1968 , your pictures have not got anything to do with the non pointing issues on this topic, or I guess they do, your dog looks nice posing in the woods, and looks nice posing while being ff. No p'ing match now I hope.

No TC, you'll see i addressed Daniel, just showing what a little pressure can do to a dogs tailset. Don't read anymore than that into it. Ive been reading all your posts carefully. Thanks for posting.

I'm to old to get into p'ing matches, or waste time being a smart arse

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri May 21, 2010 8:57 pm

Amen on the p'ing matches, I am man enough to say I am sorry, and will be proud to do it publically. I am sorry. After this reply of yours, I now see what you mean on your pics, and helping show what an why. I didnt take it that way, and I apologize.
Ridge point, Maurice has a write up he done with Martha Greenlee, couple years ago on traps. You can veiw it at www.pineyrunkennel.com This Marthas site, and has some other write ups with maurice also. He is there as we speak getting ready for their yearly seminar at Martha's. He has taught me alot in the last 20 years, a good hand with a dog. Thanks and again, sorry for the confusion. Jonesy

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Fri May 21, 2010 9:14 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Ridge point, Maurice has a write up he done with Martha Greenlee, couple years ago on traps. You can veiw it at http://www.pineyrunkennel.com This Marthas site, and has some other write ups with maurice also. He is there as we speak getting ready for their yearly seminar at Martha's. He has taught me alot in the last 20 years, a good hand with a dog.

http://www.pineyrunkennel.com/calm_dogs ... rainer.htm

Great article on stop to flush work. I always love the stuff Mo has written on this and other boards.

Here is another good one that also pertains to this topic. http://www.pineyrunkennel.com/calm_dogs ... rainer.htm

Martha did a great job on those articles.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri May 21, 2010 9:56 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Amen on the p'ing matches, I am man enough to say I am sorry, and will be proud to do it publically. I am sorry. After this reply of yours, I now see what you mean on your pics, and helping show what an why. I didnt take it that way, and I apologize.
Jonesy

No worries bro....

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sat May 22, 2010 6:55 am

There is another place on west style, this is a site that started lil while ago. There is a write up a frind of mine done outta ohio. He went and worked dogs at Maurices for the weekend, and wrote this lil pamphlet, that I thought was perfect at the time. Pretty short, simple, easy to understand, and just a good read. In the site it is a free download, I believe alot will benefit from it. I really enjoyed it when john presented it me. http://steadywithstyle.com/catergory/videos there is a little more there with Bill Gibbons, than some of us. Bill spent alot of time with Bill West. The download is on the right side of the screen. The site is pretty neat place to go and read, listen or learn. Thanks Jonesy

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Sat May 22, 2010 7:20 am

TC,
That link isn't working. I got a 404

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Sat May 22, 2010 9:14 am

tailcrackin wrote:Videos will tell a person alot. I do not want this to feel as I am pointing fingers or trying to stir contraversy, I am not attempting or trying to do in way, shape, or form. I will advise on lookers to what your watching an how it doesnt have anything to do with this style or reasoning of the fix. So they can keep their heads straight as to what I am saying on the whoa stuff and this style of fix.

Ok, so the dog is whoa broke on the barrel, dead whoa broke I believe you said, so if it has done such a good job, why has it lost it tail when you went to the ground? A dog always reads the voice, eyes, and touch. Look at how the dog is holding herself in the work shown.....to me says " Oh Crap, Dad is gonna get me" If it doesnt, she would hold her tail high and confident.........because you two have went threw all this, and she has had enough time to understand your whats and whys. An in the video she shows it, by her tail in a non-scenting situation.
Now, it has lost its tail, because if it hasnt, the tail would be held higher.......now watching the video, it isnt pointing the bird, if it was, birds fly in the wind, and grass moves when the wind is blowing, the bird flys across the front of the dog at a large distance, and the grass doesnt move during the video shoot. Plus the dog would have a stronger tendancy to not look away from the flush, when it has been scenting the bird.
Ok, if the dog is so broke and this has helped so much in her work, why isnt there any free run prior to what has been demonstrated? Why is the bird still trapped? The biggest question with the whoa work, and it being so great for the fix of the other person........why arent you in front of the dog, during the flush or simulation of the flush? Why isnt she pointing, or being allowed to point? She is broke, why arent you continuing on to the next level?=y

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Sat May 22, 2010 9:26 am

tailcrackin wrote:Videos will tell a person alot. I do not want this to feel as I am pointing fingers or trying to stir contraversy, I am not attempting or trying to do in way, shape, or form. I will advise on lookers to what your watching an how it doesnt have anything to do with this style or reasoning of the fix. So they can keep their heads straight as to what I am saying on the whoa stuff and this style of fix.

Ok, so the dog is whoa broke on the barrel, dead whoa broke I believe you said, so if it has done such a good job, why has it lost it tail when you went to the ground? A dog always reads the voice, eyes, and touch. Look at how the dog is holding herself in the work shown.....to me says " Oh Crap, Dad is gonna get me" If it doesnt, she would hold her tail high and confident.........because you two have went threw all this, and she has had enough time to understand your whats and whys. An in the video she shows it, by her tail in a non-scenting situation.
Now, it has lost its tail, because if it hasnt, the tail would be held higher.......now watching the video, it isnt pointing the bird, if it was, birds fly in the wind, and grass moves when the wind is blowing, the bird flys across the front of the dog at a large distance, and the grass doesnt move during the video shoot. Plus the dog would have a stronger tendancy to not look away from the flush, when it has been scenting the bird.
Ok, if the dog is so broke and this has helped so much in her work, why isnt there any free run prior to what has been demonstrated? Why is the bird still trapped? The biggest question with the whoa work, and it being so great for the fix of the other person........why arent you in front of the dog, during the flush or simulation of the flush? Why isnt she pointing, or being allowed to point? She is broke, why arent you continuing on to the next level?
Desertcountrygsp, you do things the way you want, I was only trying to help with the non - pointing fix. The road your going down, hasnt got anything to do with why your dog isnt pointing. Sorry, your not closer to me, I would be happy to help show you what and why. Thanks Jonesy

First, the bird is not trapped, but asleep... Similar to how almost every field trial I've ran in are. Second, this isnt my only dog, but one that I am proud of at her age. Third, She isn't dead broke... I have a kennel full of dogs, and I doubt I'll ever have a "dead broke" dog in my consideration. "Dead Broke" is subjective to the person training, and again I would love to see anyone else post pictures or videos of a dog steady to wing at LESS THAN SIX MONTHS. Every dog has wrongs and faults. Lastly, before your "know it all" comments attack someone on their wrongs, think... I'm training by myself and videoing from my camera phone. If you look the bird flushed prior to start of the video. And the bird had been flushed almost ten-fifteen seconds prior to her even thinking about looking at me.
This isn't my first bird dog, and I'll always make mistakes... But attacking someone for giving their opinion is beyond me.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sat May 22, 2010 9:55 am

You wont see videos like that because we dont, and wont advise to do it with a puppy. That is why I commented on your video. You put the video out there for the public to see, and people should be strong enough to voice an opinion. I did, because your dog showed alot if ya look into it. Your dogs actions on the work, showed alot of us that its to young for what you have already put it threw. Didnt say you did anything wrong, I said your dog showed us what was happening. When ya look.
Ok, I might have been wrong on the traps being used in the video, so you had the bird asleep.....now if lets say.....dog was feeling perky.....and didnt wanna stand there, and didnt wanna do anything but blow gaskets all over the place, what would you have done? What if the dog just hit scent when you were trying to burn the fire outta it, for saying screw you on the whoa....by your actions here, apple dont fall far from the tree, you got awful ancy here, would just about bet money you get ancy when things dont go the way you want in training. Dont know, and dont really care, but actions in public, show actions in private.
So, or lets say the dog got in to tight on the bird, and snatched it up for a bird turd, then what would happen? Dog knows that it can catch birds asleep now. When a person works a dog, you need to be prepaired for anything an everything. Expect the un-expected, when you think it wont happen, it will. The timing on what and when you do things is the most important things that you can do with a dog, if your timing is off, gaskets can and will blow.
I will watch and read as I have an always do, when things get quirky on the dogs work, I will step in an comment. I dont preach style of, and you need to do this style, man that dont mean crap to me, people will do what they think is best, they will do what they want. Thats cool to, I posted what I see and why I feel what I feel, A dog will always tell on ya. Everything happens for a reason. Right or wrong, its for a reason. When it comes to a newbie possibly screwing something up on a dog, I will step in an try an save the dog, always have, and always will.

Daniel, I got a 404 also, I am checking into things to see if the site is still working, it will take a bit before I will get a resonse on, as quick as I do, I will let ya know whats up. Sorry that it didnt work, I hadnt checked it in a while. Thanks Jonesy

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat May 22, 2010 12:01 pm

I think about everyone giving advice here, that has experience, has advocated waiting on doing the formal steadying. If I had this dog at this age and had a couple of launchers, they would be good for exposing the pup maybe every couple of weeks or so, enough to get the pup holding his point on his own. (and WANTING to get back to the field to maybe see more birds).... The issue with age is, yes, dog will do what you ask..They are made that way, they want to please you...But what is left, at a year and a half-2 yrs old...Are they dragging you to the bird field? Are they hitting intense, eye-poppin points, are they flagging, are they looking around for approval....on and on.....I train for down the road, not for the now. You might end up with a product to be proud of, or chances are you could end up with a dog that looks like crap...Over anxious trainers are the ones that learn on their first dog, then need another dog that can get the job done...JMO...