Controlling over-excited dog

[mediocre]

I have a 1 1/2 year old lab. We've been training non-stop and things have gone very well. Heeling, steady as a rock, doubles, triples and simple blinds. We've trained with duck calls, guns, birds, etc... But this year I joined a retriever club where a problem has reared its ugly head. I have no idea what to do about it.

Simply put my dog will not obey at all when there's a chance he won't get a retrieve. I'll explain.

When I train on my own he's near flawless (at what we've trained on), he takes commands well and his focus is on me. When we're working with the club he won't do anything i tell him, he gets too excited. He barks incessantly in the crate from the moment we arrive until we leave. Only stopping when he's let out for his turn. When he's let out of the crate he won't heel, stay, lie down or even focus on me, simply put, completely out of control. He only want's the chance to get the bird. He even vocalizes at the line before I let him go. He pays no mind to a shock collar or choke collar when he's in this state.

I've tried to replicate the problem and have failed until today. I took him along when shooting skeet. He barked non-stop from the crate so I tied him to a stake near to me to see if that would help. He pulled the stake out of the ground and wouldn't obey my command until he found the last clay pigeon I'd shot.

What can I do to solve this. The guys in the club say it's basic obedience but their pointers haven't helped yet.
I want to be able to enjoy my dog and have him be save around others. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Ridge-Point]

When I train on my own he's near flawless (at what we've trained on), he takes commands well and his focus is on me.

The guys in the club say it's basic obedience but their pointers haven't helped yet.

The guys at the club are right. It's basic obedience training. You need to go back to the beginning when you take him to those places he freaks out. You wouldn't expect him to nail a triple the first time you showed it to him, this is no differant. Find a starting place and work from there. You simply need to work on basic obedience outside of the back yard and around other dogs/gunfire. Once he settles down find a training buddy and work on honoring.

To curb the barking, put him on a chain gang with a bark collar on and go help someone else work their dog. Don't say anything to him, his behavior is unacceptable.

[Tall Boy]

Not sure, but I would start by picking one command, like sit, and really get on him until he does it. If he won't focus, give the command and make him do it. Sit is good because you can put pressure on him by pulling up on the lead (stud collar would be good) and pushing your thumb in the small of his back to make him do it. If he just won't do it, or sits and wont stay still you could flip him or better yet put him in a crate and walk away, get him back out in 10 - 15 minutes later and try again. You may have to hold off on the advanced skills and go back to the beginning until he gets it, every bad repetition he gets requires many good ones to correct.

A good drill my dad uses a lot in his classes is a "here" straight into a "heel", take a couple steps and "whoa" or "sit" (or "whoa" then "sit") then release, repeat. Another good one is put the dog into a heel and every three or four steps "whoa" or "sit", hold for a split second then back into a heel. String about 10-15 together to work up a rhythm and you should be able to grab his attention. Both of these drills are great for distracted dogs (dog class), because they require his continued attention and are very easy to control and correct effectivley.

I have a setter that is the same way, drives me crazy, it just takes repetition-repetition-repetition....

[crackerd]

I have a 1 1/2 year old lab. We've been training non-stop and thing have gone very well. Heeling, steady as a rock, doubles, triples and simple blinds. We've trained with duck calls, guns, birds, etc... But this year I joined a retriever club where a problem has reared its ugly head. I have no idea what to do about it.

I would wager those who responded with good intentions don't understand how retriever training plays out. And I'm also led to believe that

thing have gone very well. Heeling, steady as a rock, doubles, triples and simple blinds. We've trained with duck calls, guns, birds, etc...

means you've thrown exclusively for your dog and you've thrown (and trained) solo with nobody else in the field for the dog to get acclimated to. And obviously no other dogs competing with yours for attention or being the "working dog" while your dog observed from the sidelines, and from within his crate.

So it is basic obedience as the club members told you but it's also getting acclimated to retriever training, where you have three people, maybe four or five, at gun stations in the field, other dogs in holding blinds awaiting their turn to run, and still others "on the truck" while their owners are either throwing birds for others or running a second or third dog they may own.

The only way you'll overcome this is continue training with a group and make sure the dog becomes inured to what's going on around it. There are bark collars for the behavior in the crate and there is continued correction in heeling to the line. I wouldn't use the e-collar for that but I would get a pinch collar for allowing the dog to correct itself when it forges ahead. The vocalizing probably is going to plague you if there's any intention of running hunt tests, because it's not allowed and is extremely difficult to get rid of once a dog's "announced" itself. Don't even think about the possibility of the dog honoring at the line for a working dog.

If HTs are your ambition, you really need a pro to take your dog for six months. That means the dog is on the pro's truck all day or in his kennel all day, save for when he's out for his turn at training. He would be one of a dozen and have no choice but to recognize that. A routine develops, and with it all the elements that you need to combat but aren't equipped for. A pro makes his living at this. Training alone is fine--but the corollary is, training alone's also why you can't replicate your problems when you're training with a group. Your dog gets all the retrieves, all the attention, and you throw all the retrieves and give the dog all your attention--so who's training whom?

I have a friend who went out on the first bird of a master test yesterday--not the first bird the dog tried to pick up, which would have been the last bird down of a triple, but the first bird thrown. Meaning the dog broke on a dead bird even though it knew there were two more birds to come, including a flyer, which retrievers live for. So why did the dog break on an unexciting dead bird? Because it knew it could--the dead bird was the shortest of the three marks and the dog knew it could get away with it (no collar, and a handler too slow on his read of the dog)--and also because the handler trains alone 95% of the time and the short bird is always the "go bird" for his training. Plus he's been lax on obedience and line manners, which is what invariably bites you with competitive retrievers and trying to develop one for the first time. They're all talented dogs at what they do, they just have to be persuaded about doing what they do when you want them to do it--or not.

Don't get discouraged, just get back in there for more with the training group, and get up with them as frequently as you can. I'm presuming there are experienced trainers among them and they will help. But they also will probably advise you to stop training by yourself until the dog begins to behave accordingly when you're training with a group. Because if it doesn't, the group may say you're not welcome any more. Unless it's a club training day or function. Then you paid your money and you're good to go regardless how the dog behaves--but you may not be getting invited to train with other informal groups that are the backbone of retriever clubs and of retriever training.

MG

[Ruffshooter]

Just to add a little: I would also go his problem areas, the bird club and skeet club and do the training there and no bird work etc, just obedience training. until he gets it. Keep going to different places to do the training until he gets it in each place.

[gonehuntin']

The dog has no respect for you and is NOT under control at all. BUY A HEELING STICK AND USE IT!!! When the dog begins to forge ahead, hit him across the chest and hit him hard. For any infraction, crack him. If he raises his but while on the line, hit him hard on the rear. I wouldn't use and ecollar to stop the barking of this dog, I'd use a cattle prod. With an ecollar, all association with the collar will be negative and sometimes the collar makes them noisier. With a prod, they shut up and they shut up fast. That's why there's one on every dog trainers truck. Hit him right in the neck or on the chest with it.

There's an old saying among dog trainers, "When you train for the rediculous, the trials come easy." You have a problem and you have to correct it fast and harsh. If you don't, trust me, it'll only get worse.

[A/C Guy]

You should road the dog before hand and get burn off some of that puppy energy. Then do as mentioned, train with other dogs around. You work the basics while the other dog(s) are allowed to fetch or retrieve. You can do this at a park where other dogs are playing, it does not need to be formal retriever training. You just need other dogs for the distraction and temptation. Use a check cord to keep him from busting into the other dogs training or playing. Our female was very much like your puppy and that is how we handled the problem. She still whines when the other dogs get to retrieve, but she is much better at obeying. We can call her off a retrieve now.

[mediocre]

Thanks for the advise.

A few questions...
We've gone to the same place the club regularly conducts the training sessions and worked on both formal obedience training as well as some simple retrieves, a few times in fact, without the presence of the other dogs and handlers. No problems. I try to train in random places as much as possible and after the initial perimeter check he does fine. It's the presence of a the other dogs/handlers and gunfire or duck calling that trigger him, not necessarily the location on its own.

I've done some on obedience training with other dogs and he's certainly not perfect but nowhere near as bad as when we work with the club. It's the difference between simply being distracted by the other dogs and being completely fixated regardless of consequence I struggle with.

We've been working with the club for about a dozen sessions. Training is done now for the year and I have seen no improvement. In fact I think it's gotten worse. I've also worked an entire session (about 4 hrs, of and on) on just sit and heel using a choke collar in the parking lot while the other guys worked their dogs. The entire time he never gave me his focus and he didn't even notice when I'd use the collar. I'd continue thinking that he'd get tired and start to get it but my arm got tired way before he did. Put him in the crate. And start over again in a few minutes. Is there something I can do if the pressure I'm using simply isn't effective? This is where I think my biggest problem is. I think I know the steps to fix this but I can't even begin to get him to respond to any type of pressure. He's simply fixated on that retrieve. I think if I can get him to respond to something we'll be fine, but I'm struggling to get any response whatsoever.

When training I've started to throw dummies and pick them up myself. He doesn't seem to care, I think because he know he'll just get the next one. Even if I use a dummy launcher for the gun sound. He gets all excited for the retrieve but doesn't really have a problem sitting tight while I walk out to pick it up.

I don't really have the club at my disposal until HT season is over. Any other ways, besides going to a dog park (the get touchy when you handle your dog "roughly" or use e-collars). I'm thinking about getting in touch with one of the guys in the club for some one-on-one time, he's a pro trainer. But it's an hour plus drive and I don't think he's really into it. He has 4 dogs he getting ready for HT himself.

[daniel77]

Your profile doesn't say where you're from, but there's no place within an hr of where you live that you could go work your dog with a buddy? I'll bet once a week for a month would make a big difference. Personally, I would not use the e-collar on him at all until this is pretty well solved. Same for trying to get a retrieve, until the BASICS are back in line. Like GH said, you would do well to get a healing stick. When it comes down on him, he shouldn't be able to ignore it. You could also give him some sort of command and a few seconds, when he ignores it, flip him on his back HARD AND FAST and submit him, meaning you get down on him, hand on his throat, your face in his, just like a dominant dog would do. You want to do this in a manner that will SHOCK HIM AND MAKE HIM TAKE NOTICE. The pack leader is NEVER ignored, and the leader's problems trump the individual dog's desires. The pack leader is also calm and cool and not emotional. Temper is not what is needed, but some rough handling that CAN'T be ignored is.That is why everyone is telling you this is an obedience problem. If he's ignoring you, you aren't really his BOSS in his mind. You do need another dog to solve this but not a whole hunt test (although, I bet you're giving him signals at home that back up his feelings of being dominant). I agree about not getting rough with him in a dog park, but surely you can find some other setting where you can get away with it. One buddy who understands what you are going through, with his dog and an empty field will help bunches. You could probably do a lot of good in a back yard setting with another dog present. When one dog is no problem try something a bit more challenging. The main point most are trying to make is that you don't have your dog's attention, and without that, you've got ZIP. He needs to learn his place, and you need to better represent yours.

[mediocre]

It's been almost 3 mos. since I originally posted and until about 2 weeks ago I still had no clue what the problem or solution to the problem was. People said he'll grow out of it or it obedience or turn up the shock collar. I just wanted to post an update that might help another first-timer down the road.

When people were saying it's obedience I wasn't understanding. My dog already knew all of the basic commands and performed them well. I just didn't know why he didn't do them around gunfire and other dogs/people. Thanks to some articles on ducks.org I found that I actually needed to go back and brush up on steadiness. I had been throwing way too many bumpers for my dog and along the way teaching him that he got every retrieve and that it was okay to get revved up for them. We've been training at a local shooting range for the past 2 weeks, my dog tied to a platform so he has no choice but to be steady. We've completely gotten away from throwing bumpers and are refocusing on other aspects of retrieving. And part of that means that he only gets 50% of the retrieves, the rest I pick up. I'm hoping to do some work with other dogs in the coming weeks but it look like things are starting to get better and under control. I can't describe how frustrating it was to deal with this and halt training and tests for months. It's all making sense now.

Here's the link for anyone who might be interested.

http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverT ... =retriever

[gonehuntin']

Why do you let him bark incessantly at club days? Why do you only demand "nearly" perfect obedience? The dog is training you well. Use the club days to your advantage. If he barks in his kennel, grab the kennel and shake it, telling him NO. If he persists, take a cattle prod and work him over in the kennel.

Obedience is never a "pretty good" thing. It's a perfect thing. All or nothing. Letter perfect. Give NO quarter.

I think you're looking at your dog with rose colored glasses. Look a little closer and you'll see a ton of imperfections.

[AzDoggin]

It's been almost 3 mos. since I originally posted and until about 2 weeks ago I still had no clue what the problem or solution to the problem was. People said he'll grow out of it or it obedience or turn up the shock collar. I just wanted to post an update that might help another first-timer down the road.

When people were saying it's obedience I wasn't understanding. My dog already knew all of the basic commands and performed them well. I just didn't know why he didn't do them around gunfire and other dogs/people. Thanks to some articles on ducks.org I found that I actually needed to go back and brush up on steadiness. I had been throwing way too many bumpers for my dog and along the way teaching him that he got every retrieve and that it was okay to get revved up for them. We've been training at a local shooting range for the past 2 weeks, my dog tied to a platform so he has no choice but to be steady. We've completely gotten away from throwing bumpers and are refocusing on other aspects of retrieving. And part of that means that he only gets 50% of the retrieves, the rest I pick up. I'm hoping to do some work with other dogs in the coming weeks but it look like things are starting to get better and under control. I can't describe how frustrating it was to deal with this and halt training and tests for months. It's all making sense now.

Here's the link for anyone who might be interested.

http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverT ... =retriever

Good for you for coming up with some ideas that are helpful. Your dog knew the basic commands and knew them well in cases with few distractions. When more distractions were added, his performance fell. Now he has more confidence.

With working dogs, most trainers train in 3 phases:

Learning phase - concepts are introduced and trained through repetition

Distraction phase- new distractions are slowly added - new places, new dogs, new bumpers - frozen birds, new variables - rivers, etc. etc

Correction phase - once the dog is fairly reliable under a variety of disractions, correction for non-compliance seals the deal and teaches the dog that saying "no" is never an option.

[AzDoggin]

It's been almost 3 mos. since I originally posted and until about 2 weeks ago I still had no clue what the problem or solution to the problem was. People said he'll grow out of it or it obedience or turn up the shock collar. I just wanted to post an update that might help another first-timer down the road.

When people were saying it's obedience I wasn't understanding. My dog already knew all of the basic commands and performed them well. I just didn't know why he didn't do them around gunfire and other dogs/people. Thanks to some articles on ducks.org I found that I actually needed to go back and brush up on steadiness. I had been throwing way too many bumpers for my dog and along the way teaching him that he got every retrieve and that it was okay to get revved up for them. We've been training at a local shooting range for the past 2 weeks, my dog tied to a platform so he has no choice but to be steady. We've completely gotten away from throwing bumpers and are refocusing on other aspects of retrieving. And part of that means that he only gets 50% of the retrieves, the rest I pick up. I'm hoping to do some work with other dogs in the coming weeks but it look like things are starting to get better and under control. I can't describe how frustrating it was to deal with this and halt training and tests for months. It's all making sense now.

Here's the link for anyone who might be interested.

http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverT ... =retriever

Good for you for coming up with some ideas that are helpful. Your dog knew the basic commands and knew them well in cases with few distractions. When more distractions were added, his performance fell. Now he has more confidence.

With working dogs, most trainers train in 3 phases:

Learning phase - concepts are introduced and trained through repetition

Distraction phase- new distractions are slowly added - new places, new dogs, new bumpers - frozen birds, new variables - rivers, etc. etc

Correction phase - once the dog is fairly reliable under a variety of disractions, correction for non-compliance seals the deal and teaches the dog that saying "no" is never an option.

[ZMan079]

For a moment I thought you were talking about my dog.......LOL