Force Fetch - Dog won't fetch on the ground

[tatraxle]

Hi, I'm in the process of force fetching my 2 yr old griff, and have made a couple of posts at hangups that I've run into in the process. The forum has been very helpful with many opinions and good advice. I have another issue to try to work out. I've been force fetching for almost 3 weeks using the Dobbs method. I"m through "hold" without any trouble. I was concerened about moving to "fetch" with the toe hitch but he started reaching for the dummy consistently after about 2-3 short sessions of the toe hitch. He's collar conditioned with obedience commands so I have incorporated the collar with the toe hitch. It took a few sessions for him to actually reach for the dummy without the toe hitch or at least the string attached to his leg. He responds much better to the toe hitch than he does to the collar. Now, it seems that he is doing well with fetch. However, I'm not 100% sure he's actually trying to turn off the collar or if he has learned the command and wants to retrieve. as soon as i get him on the table he's reaching for the dummy trying to take it out of my hand. I no longer correct him with the collar unless i have to give the command twice. Even then, it doesn't really seem like it is the collar correction that he is responding to, more so my verbal command.

On the table, I had no trouble with the transition from my hand to the ground as I've read and heard I would. He will leave my side, pick up the dummy anywhere on the table and bring it back.

Here's my problem. When i get him on the ground to try to do the exact same thing, he freezes up. He won't respond to the collar and he won't fetch. He's actually hesistant to get off the bench when I try to call him off of it. It's really strange. I thought he'd be happy to get off the bench, but now he actually seems to like it on the bench. He's not correlating what I'm doing with him on the bench with what is happening on the ground at all. Do I pull out the toe hitch again and basically start over on fetch on the ground? Earlier in training, I tried to get him to walk/hold on the ground and he clammed up with that as well, so I continued all training on the bench. and here i am. Any ideas as to what's going on? Thanks.

[snips]

When you go to the ground start at the beginning with Hold...The dog has to understand with little pressure (to avoid lock-ups) that you want the same thing he is doing on the table...Baby steps...I have found that anytime you hit a hic-up you need to back track...Dog is likely confused. Help the dog to start with on and new setting or change.

[gonehuntin']

What Snips said, plus, if he's responding better to the toe hitch than the ecollar, he really isn't fully conditioned to it yet. He'll be wearing a collar, not a toe hitch while you hunt, so work on the collar. You are probably at too low an intensity.

[tatraxle]

that's what i've been thinking all along. i have it set on 1.5 low (it's a tritronics sport g3) and that's enough that he notices it when he's not paying attention and i hit him with it. anything less, and he doens't notice. if he's on the table and i hit him with it and give the command, he'll pick up the dummy, though like i said, it doesn't seem to be directly related to the collar pressure. but off the table, as soon as i hit him with it, he clams up. it seems like it is the collar that causes him to clam, but he responds well to it in the field for heel and here commands. I introduced the collar a year ago and he hunted with it all season. i'm afraid to crank up the juice as it may make the situation worse.

[tatraxle]

Well, I had the worst session of the the process yesterday. i tried to get him on the ground and start over. he would not respond to anything other than hold. fetch didn't mean anything to him, so i put him back on the bench and it carried over to the bench as well. nothing. he wouldn't budge. he clammed up the entire time, would not move. he acutally dropped the dummy a few times, which he never does. i finally pulled the toe hitch out and used combo pressure of the collar and toe hitch. i put more pressure on him with the toe hitch than i've ever had to, it was like he was intentionally resisting everyhing, to the point of looking away from me while i was applying pressure. he finally gave in after a few seconds of toe pinch, let out a yelp and reached for the dummy. i praised him and ended the session. not a fun session at all. I'm concerned that the collar is having some negative affect on him. I'm not getting the same response from the collar taht i'm getting from the ear pinch and toe hitch.

I had another session this morning and it went better. i only used the collar on the bench and he did reach out and then go across the table to pick up the dummy. it wasn't very enthusiastic but he at least was doing it.

Am I missing something or am i making too much of a bad session? Any ideas on how to ensure the collar conditioning is working?

[snips]

I would drop the ecollar....I do not use it for FF as it can cause hi stress.

[daniel77]

I may be wrong on this, and trying to judge from a forum, as opposed to watching you is nearly impossible, but from the totality of your posts, it seems that you may be giving up on things too early. What is your criteria for ending a lesson?

I'm not trying to down you or anything, and again, I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems that you are going through quite a few lessons to accomplish what should be accomplished in one. In other words, you are not winning your battles with the dog, and he's learning to out-wait you rather than learning to comply quickly. If this is the case, you are certainly making things harder both on the dog and yourself, by not taking things far enough during each lesson. Again, I may be wrong, and I'm not trying to offend, but that is the impression that I am getting. Lessons shouldn't end until definite progress has been made. The skills of the trainer come in so that you can keep working the dog without getting into bad territory. I hope that makes sense, and I feel like I have just scratched the surface of what I'm trying to say. Please note that I'm NOT advocating that you need to fry him, or make his ear and toes raw to make the dog comply. I may be confusing you with another poster, but weren't you talking about having spent three weeks on "hold" in another thread? That is what I mean, you get improvement and move on, but don't end a lesson, assuming you haven't taken the dog to a very bad place, until you've gotten something. Dogs resist and test you, sometimes even when they know what you want. If you give up during those times, their will to resist you is strengthened rather than their obedience to your will. You do NOT want your dog learning that shutting down is a valid way to turn off the pressure.

I'm not trying to make you think that you are going to ruin your dog or anything, but I would strongly encourage you to have someone familiar with FFing to watch you work your dog.

[gonehuntin']

I really think you're overlaying the collar too soon. The collar is only used when a dog KNOWS AND OBEYS all commands given, then the collar is added as a reinforcement to a known command.

When you don't use enough pressure on a dog during ff, you can get into some horrible times with them, just like you can by using too much pressure. Get em' in and get em' out, ff is 6 weeks from start to finish.

[tatraxle]

daniel you may be right, i may be spending too much time on sessions. I've really tried to take it slow so that I dont' skip past anything. This is my first go round with training and I don't claim to be an expert. I would prefer to send him off to a trainer, but that's a battle I can't win with my wife. So, the other options are a.) don't force fetch him b.) do it myself. As I am tired of searching for downed birds, i chose b.

I don't let him get away with anything and i do feel like there is progress in most sessions. like i said earlier the ear pinch and toe hitch went exactly like it was supposed to, and he does respond well to that pressure. However, I'm not real sure how to continue on the ground without the collar. that's why i'm trying to incorporate it. i don't see how i can apply pressure to him on the ground if the dummy is 10ft away and he runs out 5 ft and stops and stares off into space. It seems like the collar is the logical "corrector" for this.

[daniel77]

I agree with GH and Snips that you don't seem to be to collar territory yet. That should be about the last thing you do.

Again, it is very hard to speak about this without watching exactly what you are doing, but is your dog refusing to go? Evan G responded on another thread about the use of Ear/toe hitch/collar and I suggest you read it. Especially the part about walking fetch.

Maybe it would be helpful if you were to write out just what you expect the process to be, and where you think you are in the process. I'm not sure why you are releasing the dog completely to "fetch" if you are as early in the process as you seem to be.

Will he pick up from the ground right in front of you? Will he go 4 ft on the table? 6 ft? 10 ft? All while on the table?

If he's stopping at 5 ft on a 10 ft retrieve, you shouldn't be asking for a 10 ft retrieve yet. You do seem to be skipping some steps if that is the case. Why can't you walk along with him for that retrieve and apply pressure when he refuses?

I really think that you outlining what you feel the process is and where you feel you are would shed a lot of light on this subject. In other words, give us all the info in one spot rather than different threads. This may well wind up being a FF sticky. Someone did go through a lot of length and time to write out their method not too long ago. IMO, it would be well worth your time to search out that post.

Good luck

[tatraxle]

Ok, I can see that there is a communication issue as is probably inherent in a blog.

As far as the process goes, I am following the Dobbs method by the book. I actually am following the DVD that dobbs made. The process goes like this.

1.) Get dog on table, put gloved hand in dog's mouth without saying anything, make him hold it til he shakes then give release command. after a session or two start giving the hold command while putting hand in mouth.

This was no problem. It took no time for him to accept my hand without struggle.

2.) On the table, Begin inserting items in dog's mouth, eventually giving "hold" command. If he drops, pinch his ear, say no, and insert item back in mouth.

No problems here, I spent a few days on this making sure he had it. I used all sorts of objects from hammers to brushes. I always tug and knock on the item to make sure he's holding it. I used a frozen hun and a frozen pheasant, he'll hold the hun all day long, but won't hold the pheasant at all. Based on advice from this forum, I decided to move on and no longer use birds until I'm finished. Other than the pheasant, he'll hold anything.

3.) Get the dog on the ground and have him walk and hold. Utilize the collar to correct him.

I tried this one session and he clammed up on the ground with the collar, so I went back to the table and continued with plans of starting over on the ground once i got through fetch.

4.) at some point the dog should start opening his mouth when you give the command. It's time to fetch.

This actually happened one day. In one session, I pinched his ear, and he opened his mouth. I inserted the dummy, praised him lavishly and repeated a few times.

5.) Once the dog will open his mouth, he is ready to reach out and "fetch." Tie the toe hitch to the dog's foot, hold the dummy out in front of the dog, and simultaneously give the fetch command while pulling on the string.

I did this and he hesistantly reached out and grabbed the dummy. I let off and praised him. then told him to sit, gave him the "up" command to have him look up and "hold" command to reinforce him to keep the dummy, then "give", then praise. I repeated this process for 2-3 sessions.

6.) Incorporate the collar with the toe hitch by pulling on the toe hitch and hitting the collar at the same time as commanding fetch.

I did this and it seemed to continue to work.

7.) Remove the toe hitch and just use the collar while holding the object out in front of the dog and giving the command fetch.

I did this and he continued to fetch. not aggressively, but slowly reach out and grab the dummy.

8.) hold the dummy out farther and farther. give the fetch command while applying pressure with the collar until the dog grabs the dummy, then release pressure. Eventually lay the dummy down on the table and give the fetch command.

i continued to do this and he continously went and got the dummy (4-5 ft away). i had no problem with laying the dummy on the bench, he went straight to it picked it up and brought it back. My bench is only about 8-10 ft long but i've had him go that far to retrieve without any trouble. after a couple of sessions of this i only hit him with the collar if i had to repeat the command "fetch". it got to the point that he would actually reach out for the dummy as soon as I got him on the bench without giving the command.

9.) get the dog on the ground and beginning with short distances, set the dummy out in front of the dog and give the command fetch.

This is where this post got started. This is where I am now. He doesn't respond to the fetch command on the ground at all. Yesterday he had a meltdown and wouldn't do anything. As I mentioned earlier in this post, he responded to some fairly heavy pressure from the toe hitch and collar combined while on the ground, but that was just to reach out 1 foot and grab the dummy. That was yesterday. This morning, he did a little better on the bench. I just used the collar and the command and he would go 5-6 feet to pick up the dummy bring it back.

10. From my understanding, after they will fetch on the ground, it's just a matter of extending the range of the fetch. Though Dobbs introduced birds at the beginning and used them throuhout, I was planning to start the process over with birds and go back through the whole thing.

I'm sure I've left something out, but that's basically the process and how I've used it to this point. Hopefully that will make it a little clearer to someone where my problem is. Thanks in advance for your help.

[gonehuntin']

Stop using the collar. It's to REINFORCE, it is not to TEACH. Get rid of the toe hitch. Go back to the tabel. Pinch the ear on the buckle of the collar and command "fetch". If the dog doesn't whimper and DRAG you toward the bumper, he doesn't get it yet. IF he does it, Take the bumper half way to the ground and command fetch, then all the way to the table top if successful. Now place in one foot in front of him on the table and command "fetch", pinching his ear and making HIM pull YOU to the bumper. When successful, two feet out, then three.

Now go to the ground and START ALL OVER. It'll go fast. Never throw the bumper for the dog. Place it on the ground in front of him. Once he's going six feet, turning and coming back to heel, then TOSS it six feet. Send him on fetch. If that goes good toss it 10'. No ecollar yet. See the progression? Now, walking fetch. Once he is through walking fetch, you can introduce the ecollar by STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN.

I feel you have several problems. You're using the collar in the wrong order.
The dog doesn't understand or is not complying with "fetch" properly.
You're not using enough pressure; you're nagging, not forcing.
You're dragging it out. GET HIM OUT OF FORCE. Easier said than done, I know.

If you haven't read or watched Smart Fetch, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. It's the ff bible and the way I learned to do it.

[birddogger]

Stop using the collar. It's to REINFORCE, it is not to TEACH. Get rid of the toe hitch. Go back to the tabel. Pinch the ear on the buckle of the collar and command "fetch". If the dog doesn't whimper and DRAG you toward the bumper, he doesn't get it yet. IF he does it, Take the bumper half way to the ground and command fetch, then all the way to the table top if successful. Now place in one foot in front of him on the table and command "fetch", pinching his ear and making HIM pull YOU to the bumper. When successful, two feet out, then three.

Now go to the ground and START ALL OVER. It'll go fast. Never throw the bumper for the dog. Place it on the ground in front of him. Once he's going six feet, turning and coming back to heel, then TOSS it six feet. Send him on fetch. If that goes good toss it 10'. No ecollar yet. See the progression? Now, walking fetch. Once he is through walking fetch, you can introduce the ecollar by STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN.

I feel you have several problems. You're using the collar in the wrong order.
The dog doesn't understand or is not complying with "fetch" properly.
You're not using enough pressure; you're nagging, not forcing.
You're dragging it out. GET HIM OUT OF FORCE. Easier said than done, I know.

If you haven't read or watched Smart Fetch, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. It's the ff bible and the way I learned to do it.

Ditto!!!!

Charlie

[tatraxle]

I took the collar off, got him on the ground and started over using the ear pinch as the only means of pressure. The last 4-5 days have been the same. I hold his collar with his ear against the buckle and command fetch with the dummy in my other hand out in front of him. sometimes he'll go directly to it and grab it, sometimes he'll lean into my hand because he doessn't like the pressure and i'll have to increase the "pinch" and he'll wimper and then reach for the dummy. He's consistently reaching, but not always on the first or even second command.

Is it just a matter of repetition before he "pulls me" to the bumper? Or do I need to apply more pressure. I feel like I'm applying enough as he often yelps or whimpers on his way to the bumper. Yesterday I began the process for retrieving the object on the ground. Even with my hand on the bumper on the ground, he goes to my arm, then down my arm then to the dummy. I plan to continue this until he's got it, but can I expect him to retrieve more responsively (quickly) with repetition or am i doing something wrong. I do not want to begin the collar overlay until this portion is nailed. Thanks.

[snips]

If you started over with ear pinch, I would do it on table first...

[Supercalifragilistic]

Don't forget praise!! I did that with mine and she seemed to dislike it but the minute I changed my attitude to a more positive and energetic one, she changed hers too and we got a lot further with FF. It can be easily overlooked because FF is not the most fun thing to train in my opinion and it can be frustrating as well. Just remember to give her a good dog!!

[gonehuntin']

I took the collar off, got him on the ground and started over using the ear pinch as the only means of pressure. The last 4-5 days have been the same. I hold his collar with his ear against the buckle and command fetch with the dummy in my other hand out in front of him. sometimes he'll go directly to it and grab it, sometimes he'll lean into my hand because he doessn't like the pressure and i'll have to increase the "pinch" and he'll wimper and then reach for the dummy. He's consistently reaching, but not always on the first or even second command.

Don't command him twice. Command "fetch" once and if he doesn't jump for that bumper, immediately pinch the ear and say nothing until he grabs it. He must learn that this is a one command deal and there's is NO escape from it.

Is it just a matter of repetition before he "pulls me" to the bumper? Or do I need to apply more pressure. I feel like I'm applying enough as he often yelps or whimpers on his way to the bumper. Yesterday I began the process for retrieving the object on the ground. Even with my hand on the bumper on the ground, he goes to my arm, then down my arm then to the dummy. I plan to continue this until he's got it, but can I expect him to retrieve more responsively (quickly) with repetition or am i doing something wrong. I do not want to begin the collar overlay until this portion is nailed. Thanks.

You don't have to use more pressure, you just have to keep it uncomfortable. I WOULD probably use more pressure, but I've done hundreds of dogs. The average person will get in less trouble use less pressure, not more pressure. Make him whimper, but don't make him scream.

There is NO reason the dog should go for your arm on the way to the bumper. When you take him to the ground, do it a couple of inches at a time. You can't expect the dog to reach a foot for the bumper when he won't reach two inches. Once he's picking up off the ground from your hand, go to a knobby bumper. Drop the bumper to the ground and with the toe of your shoe, place the shoe on the air valve end and push down, raising one end of the bumper. Now command "fetch" and it will be easier for the dog to pick up. Once he'll to that, step back as he steps ahead to fetch, and command "heel" at the pick up. You'll be nearly done now.

You have to get in and out of this quickly or the dog may shut down totally and quit all retrieving. That's the danger of ff if it's done wrong.