Running straight lines.

[brule]

I'm looking to find out methods of getting my lab to run straight lines, or swim straight lines on retrieves. On shorter retrieves he does good, but when I send him on longer retrieves he always loops out wide. On water retrieves it is worse then on land. Many times he will run down the shore then enter the water instead of entering the water where we are at.

I'm thinking I should set up two cones, spaced 4ft or so, 20 feet away from us in line with where I will send him. If when I send him he goes outside the cones I call him back in and make him go through the cones before I allow a full retrieve. Good idea. Yes, No?

[gonehuntin']

First, you need a training program to follow. I recomment either the Fowl Dawg dvd's or Evan Graham. You have the basic idea; the best way to teach a dog straight lines is to give them an object to run AT, like a white bucket, or teach them to go over obstacles, like a hay bail or bush.

Teaching them to enter the water requires bank breaking and that is a whole dvd.

The best money you'll spend now is to buy a program so you'll know how to progress.

[daniel77]

I agree, you're in the ballpark, but this can be a long game. This is more of a finishing touch sort of thing and will take a fair bit of time to complete, especially the water stuff at angles and close to the bank, so unless you are planning on trials/tests and such, I wouldn't worry too much about it. For a hunting dog, letting them figure out the best way usually works just fine. For example, it is a lot easier on the dog to run the bank and make a short swim than making continuous long swims. It's a lot faster too. For a working duck dog, you'd rather them back in the blind with your birds quickly, than out there scaring away new flights of ducks. For the trial/test dog, obviously, it is an issue.

[crackerd]

I'm thinking I should set up two cones, spaced 4ft or so, 20 feet away from us in line with where I will send him. If when I send him he goes outside the cones I call him back in and make him go through the cones before I allow a full retrieve. Good idea. Yes, No?

No. Adds an unnecessary complication and call the dog back, especially a young dog, and you'll soon have a retriever that won't go at all. Thus the not-so-little training impediment is known as the "no-go."

I agree, you're in the ballpark, but this can be a long game. This is more of a finishing touch sort of thing and will take a fair bit of time to complete, especially the water stuff at angles and close to the bank, so unless you are planning on trials/tests and such, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

No, he's not in the ballpark, and it's not a finishing touch at all, but you're right in not worrying about it--unless you could be embarrassed by having a retriever that's water shy or eventually may not go into the water at all.

You need to heed GH's advice on training material, but also need to try and outthink your dog. If you want the dog running straight lines into the water, make the retrieve only far enough into the water so that a straight line to it is easier to take than running the bank to get to it.

Understand that? Let's put you and the dog 10 feet back from the water's edge. Let's have you throw the bumper five feet out into the water. Yes, five feet--barely off the bank. That's 15 feet distance total. The dog will quickly get the idea that if it runs 20 feet down the bank, then decides to swim a diagonal to the bumper, it's traveled and swum further to get the bumper than if it'd simply gone straight ahead into the water and retrieved it on a straight line.

Water forcing is a great thing for trial and hunting dogs, but it has to be done right or you suffer the consequences over a dog's lifetime (if that bothers you). Well before attempting water forcing or having a professional undertake it with your dog, you should be encouraging a retriever's love of water and doing everything you can to get it more excited about water. Make it fun, make it easy, and make it want more water--which will mean incrementally longer retrieves through the water.

Good luck,

MG

[daniel77]

No, he's not in the ballpark, and it's not a finishing touch at all, but you're right in not worrying about it--unless you could be embarrassed by having a retriever that's water shy or eventually may not go into the water at all.

MG

Going from not keeping a perfect line to water shyness is a pretty far jump IMO. He said nothing about the dog being water shy. Most greener dogs run the bank when it is easier because, like any animal, they do what is easiest. This would be one of those areas where common sense should prevail.

[brule]

There is no water shyness at all with my lab. I didn't even have to get him to go into the water. He went swimming all by himself and this is when it was only 40 degrees out and still a thin layer of ice around the ponds. My main concern with him veering is when it comes to retrieving doubles, triples, quads.

If he starts to veer and catches sight or scent of something to the side he is veering to he will change what bird or dummy he is going to retrieve. This isn't a huge problem, but it becomes a problem when 1)the bird I sent him on is a cripple and it's getting away, 2)some of the areas we hunt do get quite a bit of hunters and that bird just might not be ours for the taking, 3)at times he can't be running down the bank because of other hunters, or private propery, and 4)I want him going to where I told him to go. I don't spend as much time as I do training my dog to have an ok dog, I want an exceptional dog, even though I won't be trialing him.

[crackerd]

... I don't spend as much time as I do training my dog to have an ok dog, I want an exceptional dog, even though I won't be trialing him.

Then train smarter. Why would you give the dog two birds or bumpers in the water that apparently are without much separation but with enough proximity to each other that the dog's expected to choose? It ain't a democracy in training. But it's supposed to be teaching. You teach multiples with a program, or with foreknowledge of how dog will respond when it's got two birds down and would prefer to pick them both up at once but failing that will go for the one it selects. And even if it doesn't select that bird, it will be influenced by it in going for the other. In other words, you're putting your dog in a poor position to succeed at what you're asking from it.

Now if you're talking hunting--and it's hard to infer that from

I'm looking to find out methods of getting my lab to run straight lines, or swim straight lines on retrieves. On shorter retrieves he does good, but when I send him on longer retrieves he always loops out wide. On water retrieves it is worse then on land. Many times he will run down the shore then enter the water instead of entering the water where we are at.

I'm thinking I should set up two cones, spaced 4ft or so, 20 feet away from us in line with where I will send him. If when I send him he goes outside the cones I call him back in and make him go through the cones before I allow a full retrieve. Good idea. Yes, No?

then the dog may not get a pass, but you've got a far better chance of having it comply with what you're asking if it's been trained to do so. Field trials are all about straight lines and while they're not necessary in hunt tests or certainly hunting--it's a boon if you've trained them into the dogs. Straight lines is also called selection in how you're referencing it. You might want to study it a little.

Good luck,

MG

[daniel77]

Have you done any of the control drills like baseball or wagon wheel yet? How about blinds? T drill? Hand signals? Send by? and now you're stuck, or are you asking what drills to do? Having a dog that handles well is wonderful, no doubt, but there's a lot to it.

Going over or between objects is certainly a part of getting them strait, but there really is a lot more to the advanced stuff. I knew a guy who had a female that he'd done the log thing so much with, that she'd run out of her way to jump a log. Like anything else, start close (more like 5 ft than the 20 you stated) then add and increase until they've mastered it. Most that I know don't reel the dog all the way in, just make him sit when he misses his mark call him in till he's back lined up, and resend. Make it very easy in the beginning. Water lines are pretty much the same. Start at the water line with no angle (90 deg), then back up and increase the angle till they've got it. That sentence could take a few months.

I fully appreciate you wanting your dog as highly trained as possible. There's nothing wrong with that at all. I was just trying to say that some of what becomes obsessed upon for the show pen isn't all it's cracked up to be in real life, on a hunt.

[daniel77]

There is no water shyness at all with my lab. I didn't even have to get him to go into the water. He went swimming all by himself and this is when it was only 40 degrees out and still a thin layer of ice around the ponds. My main concern with him veering is when it comes to retrieving doubles, triples, quads.

If he starts to veer and catches sight or scent of something to the side he is veering to he will change what bird or dummy he is going to retrieve. This isn't a huge problemI disagree, this is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. This is where having an excellent SIT on the dog comes in handy. Also why you master a bunch of things before going to challenging doubles and such, but it becomes a problem when 1)the bird I sent him on is a cripple and it's getting away, Send by fixes that2)some of the areas we hunt do get quite a bit of hunters and that bird just might not be ours for the taking,you should always be sending him to a specific bird, and not just out to fetch something 3)at times he can't be running down the bank because of other hunters, or private propery,again, the sending to a specific mark and 4)I want him going to where I told him to go. I don't spend as much time as I do training my dog to have an ok dog, I want an exceptional dog, even though I won't be trialing him.excellent attitude, now go buy "water dog" or some DVDs that GH suggested

Good luck

[brule]

Hand signals, T drill, baseball, single blinds are all spot on for him. If he veers while out in the water or field I can whistle for him to stop and correct him, but I don't want this. I guess I am stuck and looking for a good method to get him to run straight lines.

[daniel77]

Sounds like you have the building blocks, now just rinse and repeat. Keep in mind that this is a look at the forest sort of thing and takes longer for them to "get" than simply seeing a tree. He is only 8 months after all, right?

[brule]

Yes, he is just over 8 months old. I know some guys think this is to early to be doing lots of training, and some guys think this is a good age for classwork. I haven't had to put much pressure on him at all to excel at anything I've taught him that is why I haven't pushed really hard on the straight lines yet. He's done so well, and picked up so quickly on everything I feel as I don't want to break his great spirit he has right now.

[SeniorCoot]

I am fortunate in that i have lots of straight fence line to run- i use them daily when teaching pattern blinds-Today i will do 3-4 from 60 or so yds to 150 yds with my almost 2yr YLM- then we will do some blinds in pasture where we walk- i drop bumper and later have him retrieve it-if he loops ,we go back to fence line. it works.

[Oscar]

On this subject I would like to tell you that I like to train to keep lines long, with no hunting, no matter if it is a "right" or "left" must always be able to follow several hundred meters.

I give you a video of my labrador Nikon. I sent it to the right purpose to show a friend how I could take a line-to-left or right by several hundred meters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ifudCmC9g

Oscar CHávez

[crackerd]

There is no water shyness at all with my lab. I didn't even have to get him to go into the water. He went swimming all by himself and this is when it was only 40 degrees out and still a thin layer of ice around the ponds. My main concern with him veering is when it comes to retrieving doubles, triples, quads.

If he starts to veer and catches sight or scent of something to the side he is veering to he will change what bird or dummy he is going to retrieve. This isn't a huge problemI disagree, this is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. This is where having an excellent SIT on the dog comes in handy. Also why you master a bunch of things before going to challenging doubles and such, but it becomes a problem when 1)the bird I sent him on is a cripple and it's getting away, Send by fixes that

Daniel, have you trained a retriever? There's no such thing as a send-by, the training is called the swim-by. It's done in conjunction with water forcing. Then you "de-cheat" a dog from running the bank, and if the swim-by and water forcing have been excecuted well, doesn't take much to make your dog "honest" in the water. Honesty is swimming straight out--and in my book, swimming straight back--with a retrieve, whether a mark or a blind.

The original poster may say "there is no water shyness at all with my Lab" but based on his descriptions, he hasn't done any of the drills for training up a retriever on land or water, and his dog's behavior running the bank indicates a lack of what we call "water courage." Do you know what that is? A dog that's comfortable in choosing water even when it could get to a bird faster by land. I've seen Labs with a water entry like a torpedo coming off a TDY dive bomber only to turn back 10 yards from where they go in. "Water shyness?" No, just no water courage--yet. Can be cultivated with training as described above, but usually the dog either has it, or doesn't.

Hey, Oscar, do you have retriever trials down there in Argentina? If so, how 'bout telling us what they consist of?

MG

[daniel77]

There is no water shyness at all with my lab. I didn't even have to get him to go into the water. He went swimming all by himself and this is when it was only 40 degrees out and still a thin layer of ice around the ponds. My main concern with him veering is when it comes to retrieving doubles, triples, quads.

If he starts to veer and catches sight or scent of something to the side he is veering to he will change what bird or dummy he is going to retrieve. This isn't a huge problemI disagree, this is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. This is where having an excellent SIT on the dog comes in handy. Also why you master a bunch of things before going to challenging doubles and such, but it becomes a problem when 1)the bird I sent him on is a cripple and it's getting away, Send by fixes that

Daniel, have you trained a retriever? You're a fairly confrontational guy aren't you? Never much help, but always plenty of criticism. Yes, I've trained several, as well as several cowdogs, and a Schutzhund dog, and several hundred horses. Anything else you'd like to know? There's no such thing as a send-by, the training is called the swim-by.I'm sorry, I thought most trained their dogs on land and then transferred the training to the water. I guess my dogs and a bunch of others that I've known wouldn't send by on land according to you. :roll: Do you mind it when people say "here" and not "come"? There should be some sort of command to break a dog off of a mark and go to another, like to a cripple for example. That's just practical, no matter what you want to name it. It's done in conjunction with water forcingI may be admitting my ignorance here, but you're the only guy I ever heard talk about "water forcing". Then you "de-cheat" a dog from running the bank, and if the swim-by and water forcing have been excecuted well, doesn't take much to make your dog "honest" in the water. Honesty is swimming straight out--and in my book, swimming straight back--with a retrieve, whether a mark or a blindDo you nick your dog when there's a cross current? Relax a bit. His pup is 8 months old. Sounds like he's doing just fine to me, at least.

The original poster may say "there is no water shyness at all with my Lab" but based on his descriptions, he hasn't done any of the drills for training up a retriever on land or water, Did you miss his post where he says the dog's good on T drill, baseball, hand signals, etc.?and his dog's behavior running the bank indicates a lack of what we call "water courage." Do you know what that is? A dog that's comfortable in choosing water even when it could get to a bird faster by land. I've seen Labs with a water entry like a torpedo coming off a TDY dive bomber only to turn back 10 yards from where they go in. "Water shyness?" No, just no water courage--yet. Can be cultivated with training as described above, but usually the dog either has it, or doesn't.

Hey, Oscar, do you have retriever trials down there in Argentina? If so, how 'bout telling us what they consist of?

MG

There just might be more than just your way of doing things. The OP is free to disregard any and all that I've said. I'll even refund what he paid me for it. Have a beer and relax. You might note that he was honestly asking for some help, not for someone to simply tell him he's screwed it all up and leave it at that. Just my opinion, but that doesn't seem very helpful. I'm a hunter and not a trialer. If a fall is 10 feet from the bank and 60 yds away, I'd prefer my dog to run the bank and be back quick rather than waste all that time and energy in the water. As I stated plainly before, obviously, this is not OK for trials/tests, but it is a LOT more practical and sensible for hunting. A dog that takes the easier route isn't necessarily lacking in anything, his handler may be just fine with him doing that. And, I'll bet that at least a few of those dock-launching, ball-crazed, torpedo dogs wouldn't be much fun in a duck boat/blind. Just my opinion. I might even be wrong, but know I'm happy with a relaxed and efficient dog when I'm knocking ducks from the sky.

I would like to add that I'm not saying that it is wrong, or a waste of time to work on running strait lines. I do think that it is valuable stuff, and if I were to get another lab pup next week, it would be a part of what I trained him to do. It wouldn't be the Holy Grail to me, though. Different Strokes...

[SeniorCoot]

daniel77--I agree with you re Bank Running-- although i do NOT promote it in training neither do i get all wet in the pants if dogs do it on occasion- I train my three boys to hunt- although 2 older BLM's have done a couple of tests and been used a test dogs-as for running a straight line- as posted above i use fence etc- a small loop is ok in field but straight is best and gets more meat for table.