Is this a normal thing!!!Need some help!

[inthebox30lbs]

As I said in previos post Im still working on the Hold command Everyday for 5-7min with my male black lab 9 months old. Were getting pretty good at it, but no means is it good. He will hold but but wants to drop more often than not when I am not right next to him. This is going on a month of this, its been extremely slow. WHen I switch bumbers he wants to chomp. We get into a little battle and then he will eventually hold. I am putting plenty of pressure on him with the ear pinch, (he lets me know) I know that he understands no ear pinch= dummy in the mouth. He is even reaching for it at times. He is so stubburn and he shows no sensitity to the pressure at all. As a matter of fact he loves it. He gets his ear pinched of everyday and he stills runs right out and jumps up on the table waggin his big ol tale. Yesterday I thought I would throw a couple bumpers for him, considereing we have done no retireves in 3 weeks. Same old thing, drop the bumper about 3 to 4 feet in front of me. This seems crazy considering people claim to have dogs holding in several days. Is it me thats the problem or does this occassionally take this long. Thanks a ton for any advice or info
scott

[adogslife]

Which FF program are you following?

When I FF I do not apply ear pressure during the hold stage.I keep my thumb under the chin ready to put the bumper back in. Do you have the dog siting or standing? I stop all off leash retrieves until we are past walking fetch.

adogslife

[inthebox30lbs]

I am using a program the DOBBS Force retireve DVD's. I have followed. it to a tee. Been consistent and pervasive. I cant move on if the dog will not hold. Thats why Im asking I have had friends that have watch me give a lesson and say it was done correctly. The dog will not hold realiably I see no point to move on if he cannot hold. His drive to retireve is tremendous. I have taken I believe all the steps and have been reading, asking, etc etc.
scott

I tried not using the ear pinch at first with the hold. it did not work the jowel pinch was not effective on him. When I started pinching he at least started to understand how to turn off the pressure

[surferdave]

I don't know if you should follow this advice, as it's not part of a force fetch program, but when I was first training my puppy to retrieve, I used treats, he would not receive the treat until he brought the bumper back to me hand delivered. It's possible a combination of pressure along with praise or even treats could work. I don't have experience with ear pinch, as I force fetch using an e-collar, but I do think that using your dogs incentive for reward could alongside pressure might do the trick.

[daniel77]

Something is definitely wrong if the dog isn't holding after a week (I'd bet 85% are pretty fair after a few days) much less after a month, IMO. It is difficult, however, to diagnose WHAT is wrong over the internet. I do know that labs are TOUGH. Much tougher than most of us can imagine. They do not feel pain like we do. A vet that I helped out in high school would routinely use a horse needle and no or little local anesthesia on fixing up labs. He was an old country vet, and said that he couldn't do that with any other breed of dog, but labs didn't seem to feel pain. I would suspect that you are either poorly timing what you are doing and confusing the dog, or not using enough pressure to motivate him. Use as little pressure as you can, but enough pressure to get the response. OTOH, with horses, I routinely see people who have run out of ideas getting frustrated and using pain rather than pressure. Pain distracts and makes learning much more difficult. There is a "range" that works and any little bit on either side of that range is counter-productive. However, when you mention how enthusiastic he is to get on the table, I suspect you aren't using enough pressure. I think most would agree that FFing in neither fun for the dog nor the handler. You should both want to spend as little time as possible doing FF.
Also, you don't go from hold to full on retrieving. I'm sure you know that if you've seen and are following a program, but I'd say that test is a poor one and likely caused your program some damage. You don't go from ultra slow (a month for the first small step) to skipping what most would take a 3/4 of the total FF to accomplish. If you can't get some hands on help from someone more experienced (like let them work the dog while you watch for a few days), I'd sure go and find a few more FF programs and maybe seeing it from a different angle will show you what you've missed, but, clearly what you are doing is not working. I don't have his videos, but Evan G, who posts on here, has some good mini-clips from them on YouTube that may help you out.
Not trying to be too hard on you, and sorry if I've come off that way. I just think that some change is certainly needed. I applaud you for asking for the advice of others, and hope you get him sorted out. Good luck.

[Ruffshooter]

The dog is rebelling. Stop for three or four days. Start over and be more assertive. He is bored to tears every day the same ole thing. Need to move on. So make him move on. You need to do hold and walk and hold sit and hold etc. It would help to see what you are doing. GH or Evan can get you through this. But I think YOU ARE NOT MOVING ON and doing it to many days in a row. MY .05 Hard to diagnose with out seeing.
Rick

[snips]

I no longer believe a dog has to be Holding reliably to move foreward... I reinforce the Hold as I am doing the ear pinch to take it...By the time the dog is picking a dumbell off the table and walking he is reliably Holding...Why not learn them both together.... Then if the dumbell is dropped I use the ear pinch as a correction to rehold.

[gonehuntin']

Gotta agree with Daniel. You're not doing something right and my guess is, the pressure. NO dog likes pressure. They hate it. YOU ARE NOT PINCHING THE EAR HARD ENOUGH! I use a collar with a golf spike on it. All I do is barely touch the ear to it. NEVER pinch it so hard you create bleeding or abrade the skin. Forget about the hold. Put pressure on the ear until that dog whimpers and PULLS YOU TO THE BUMPER. Throw him no fun bumpers until he is delivering to hand. Spending a month on hold is rediculous. You are boring the dog to death. You have to get them into, and out of ff as fast as possible. Six weeks is standard, eight is max.

When he is holding and spits the bumper out, pinch his ear and make him whimper until you put it back in his mouth. Gradually start working him toward the ground.

You sound kind of lost. I STRONGLY suggest buying Evan's Smart Fetch and following it. I NEVER quit a dog when it slows down; I push harder.

[birddog1968]

Im with Ruff on this one.....take a break and start again in a few days.

If hold is taking a month you have to ask yourself, Who is training who.....

Don't mean that in a bad way. Take a break, start again and then move on.

[inthebox30lbs]

Thanks for all the advice guys I do appreciate it. I have potentially a great dog with tons of drive and desire to please he just has me stumped right now. I will try and increase the pressure with the ear pinch and If in a few days I dont see improvement I will give him a few days break and regroup and come back after it. I do believe that all dogs are different and this is not being my first has been a challange. My last dog a springer held with no problems at all and FF with him was a cake walk. I had more trouble with him crushing birds, now I have the exact opposite. My lab is very soft mouth. I will say at the same time he is the best dog I have ever owned with basic obedience. I have reflected daily on what we work on and just cant come up with mistaken steps in what I am doing thats why Im asking advice to see if anyone has ever experienced a dog like this. Alot of literature that I have read and seen is how important it is to get the dog to hold before moving on. In many cases trainers say to get a dog to hold reliably could take 3-4 sessions or as much as a month depending on dog. Thats why I Havent been to concerned as of late. Thanks again for advice and will update on progress.
scott

[Sprig]

As I said in previos post Im still working on the Hold command Everyday for 5-7min with my male black lab 9 months old. Were getting pretty good at it, but no means is it good. He will hold but but wants to drop more often than not when I am not right next to him. This is going on a month of this, its been extremely slow. WHen I switch bumbers he wants to chomp. We get into a little battle and then he will eventually hold. I am putting plenty of pressure on him with the ear pinch, (he lets me know) I know that he understands no ear pinch= dummy in the mouth. He is even reaching for it at times. He is so stubburn and he shows no sensitity to the pressure at all. As a matter of fact he loves it. He gets his ear pinched of everyday and he stills runs right out and jumps up on the table waggin his big ol tale. Yesterday I thought I would throw a couple bumpers for him, considereing we have done no retireves in 3 weeks. Same old thing, drop the bumper about 3 to 4 feet in front of me. This seems crazy considering people claim to have dogs holding in several days. Is it me thats the problem or does this occassionally take this long. Thanks a ton for any advice or info
scott

I have been force fetching dogs for over 17 years and i am going to be honest about it, if it is taking a month to get a dog to just hold then he isn't understanding the procedure and you need to re-evaluate what you are doing. for an average dog it should only take a week at best to get the hold command down.

.you are force fetching the dog, stop throwing dummies for him until he is done with force fetch, this will only drag out him "coming on board" with force fetching because he is getting mixed signals, hold during FF but he can still drop on on a retrieve. That might be part of the problem he is having. if he is reaching for the dummy, you are right, he is understanding that portion of the exercise. the problem might be the timing when he drops the bumper. if you are ear pinching, you should always always always have your hand on the ear so the instant he starts to drop the bumper you can pinch and say hold. its all about timing with dog training so if there is a short time between when he drops it and when you pinch, he might not be making the connection. also, if he drops it, dont pick up the bumper, make him pick it up off the ground, that will help reinforce the fetch and hold commands. but once again, always keep your hand where you can instantly apply pressure as soon as he starts to drop. hope that helps some. good luck

[adogslife]

I bet if you opened his mouth and put the bumper in and make him hold (not clamping down his jaws)he will start to buck like a bronco.
Get past this stage and before moving on. The dog is testing you and he is winning.

[inthebox30lbs]

Thanks again for all the advice guys. One thing that I want to clear up is the dog will hold but just not how I feel a dog should before moving on. We are past the chin hold process and he will hold the bumper for a few seconds up to half a minute. THe hold is not tight, I rap under the chin on the nose and frimly command HOLD! Works sometimes, sometimes it does not. Moving with the bumper has been tough, minute we move on lead he wants to spit it out, and yes my hand is back under his chin for this transition. My timing on the ear pinch I feel is fine the instant he drops I pinch, as soon as it goes in the pressure is released. I dont want to have a dog that does not hold relialby, IMO its one of the most important part of training other the BO. I want a dog that will hold and not let go untill commanded to do so. I have watched the dog closely and he is not looseing heart or desire. His drive is growing if anything. Also I had not thrown any bumbers in several weeks and have thrown a total of maybe 10 throws in the last month. Thanks again

[snips]

But have you started using the ear pinch yet for him to take it?

[inthebox30lbs]

Yes I have he is starting to reach for it. He did pretty good tonight we started the walking part of the Hold and he did pretty good. I put quite a bit of pressure on his ear with the pinch and by the end of the session he started to hold it while moving with only a little bit of chewing it.
scott