George Hickox Time Frame.

[lawoodcocker]

After watching the George Hickox DVD " Training Pointing Dogs", I certainly like his simple approach to e-collar training. My question is - At what age should you first strap the collar on and begin to use it? I thought he said he was training his dog to whoa at 8 - 10 weeks old with the collar. That seems young.

[Sharon]

Entirely depends on the dog's maturity and confidence. He uses a dummy collar for weeks 10 - 16 +.

http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/el ... aining.pdf

[snips]

There is no way any puppy needs an ecollar at 8-10 wks....For anything...

[gonehuntin']

There is no way any puppy needs an ecollar at 8-10 wks....For anything...

+18

[Birddog3412]

After watching the George Hickox DVD " Training Pointing Dogs", I certainly like his simple approach to e-collar training. My question is - At what age should you first strap the collar on and begin to use it? I thought he said he was training his dog to whoa at 8 - 10 weeks old with the collar. That seems young.

I do not think that is right. I do not think he told an exact age to whoa break, but his order is: kennel, here, whoa. So I am sure it is not 8 - 10 weeks because that would mean the pup is already kennel broke and here broke.

In his video the only time he used a puppy (6 - 8 months old) was into to guns and birds, in the whoa section of the video all of the dogs were minimum 1 year old imo.

[lawoodcocker]

I watched it again. He teaches kennel 1st, then whoa. Now, the dogs he was teaching to kennel were 3 or 4 months at best. Show pup for a couple weeks which might put it at 18 weeks before the collar. But then he says he will have a pup at 8 or 10 weeks on a barrel to whoa, which comes after kennel. After the pup whoas on a barrel, he goes to the ground, then collar. That is where my confusion comes in. So how old should she be? Its not clear to me.

[Ruffshooter]

That is a lot different than when I went to one of his 5 day seminars some 12 years ago.

In fact he wanted to make sure your pups were at least 6 months old before coming to the school to be worked.

who knows.
Rick

[wfkgsps]

I've been to his seminar and if you tried to pin him down to a time table, he won't answer you. His reply, "Every dog is different."
He uses the Pre-Cue, Cue training method and he stresses low level stimulation. Hickox also wants 80% compliance in the Show pups stage before using the collar. Therefore, when do you use the collar on your dog...only you can answer that. Here's what you can expect from him and a dog he has raised/trained.
From the Hickox Website: Approximate Age for a Level 1 Dog: 6 months
A Stonecreek level I dog will have had a proper introduction to scores of live birds and has had numbers of birds shot over him. This dog demonstrates strong pointing and hunting instincts. He has traveled, is accustomed to the crate and is well socialized with dogs and people. The level I dog is ready to graduate to more advanced stages in training. His program has been an extensive one involving clicker training, proper introduction to low level e-collar stimulation, point drills and field work.

[Birddog3412]

I watched it again. He teaches kennel 1st, then whoa. Now, the dogs he was teaching to kennel were 3 or 4 months at best. Show pup for a couple weeks which might put it at 18 weeks before the collar. But then he says he will have a pup at 8 or 10 weeks on a barrel to whoa, which comes after kennel. After the pup whoas on a barrel, he goes to the ground, then collar. That is where my confusion comes in. So how old should she be? Its not clear to me.

Sorry, you are right on the order he teaches, I wasnt. He did have the young dogs on a barrel, but that is it. (nothing wrong with working pups that young on a barrel). What I was meaning was look at the dogs that he is working with his "suitcase" check chord those are alot older dogs.

Ill watch it again, but in the kennel section of show pups I would call the pointer pup 6 months and the setter 8 to 10 months.

I usually start having pups wear the collar around 6 months and go from there.

[nitrex]

I've been to several Hickox schools over the past 8 years. He has changed alot of stuff, but still has the same method. In the past few years he has really emphasised clicker training with the young dogs. The point here being that he uses less pressure on the young pups but gets them learning the commands so he can overlay the e-collar After they know the command. That is when the 80% compliance comes in. He is collar conditioning many dogs in his program by 5 months, but they have had extensive clicker work. Also, after being conditioned to the e-collar, most go through alot of work in the yard and then in the field with no actual e-collar use. His method is really great, but difficult to grasp through an internet forum. Buy the newest dvds and go to a seminar, any I hink you will really start to get it. He is doing some pretty cool things with dogs - years ahead of many out there! Too may people on these forums think they know what he is teaching, but have only seen a video series or "heard it from a friend."

I use his methods and have most of my dogs collar conditioned by 5-6 months, but it is low level stimulation and a ton of other training before and after to develop the dog.

Nitrex

PS Last school I attended was Fall of '09

[Ruffshooter]

I have done his school years ago and really liked it back then.

but, Why add the clicker, just seems like an added unneeded step. Have not seen his newest videos but have seen other clicker training. Just to change things up? Again, he is the pro I don't know why and not against it. If it aint broke don;t fix it.

[Birddog3412]

I have done his school years ago and really liked it back then.

but, Why add the clicker, just seems like an added unneeded step. Have not seen his newest videos but have seen other clicker training. Just to change things up? Again, he is the pro I don't know why and not against it. If it aint broke don;t fix it.

I agree he is the pro, I will probably not train (or try to train) as many dogs in my lifetime as he will this year. But what I have seen, read, and heard from George Hickox he is all about eleminating unneeded steps, and the clicker seems to me like an unneeded step.

[nitrex]

I believe he would say that he gets better results and perhaps quicker results using the clicker with young dogs. Also, he no longer uses "compulsion" to get the dog to do what he ultimately desires. For example, during his show pup stage he is teaching the pups to go into the kennel because it works for them, not because we force them in; less pressure = more style.

If you haven't seen his use of the clicker (and others) you really have no idea how fast you can have a pup going into a kennel, standing on a whoa board, or recalling. Usually George is getting the behavior within a few short (5-10 min) sessions. He then will add the command, and finally work on perfecting the performance with the command. He is not into a fast track schedule. It about developing the dog to it's fullest genetic potential, however long that takes.

As for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." It wasn't broke, but it can still be better. Sports cars, computers, and many other things work, but some want more which keeps us striving for something better, faster, more stylish, etc., etc. etc.. Some are happy with what they have and others are wanting more! That's why he's a top pro. He is always learning and working to be a better trainer!

Nitrex

[daniel77]

I'm no Hickox expert by any means, but I would like to comment on the clicker training being an unneeded step. What the clicker is all about is giving a dog a very positive experience and easily timed reward to facilitate fast and clear learning. This gets the pups started down the road of learning how to learn and liking it.
Can you teach the same things without the clicker? Absolutely.
Will the clicker, if properly used, teach a dog what you want them to know in an all positive, no pressure way, and get them to looking forward to and enjoying training? Absolutely.
I'd say having a puppy learn how to learn in a way that is very positive, works quickly, rewards the dog instantly and makes timing easier even for novices, has no pressure, and gets them to thinking training is play time is invaluable, and far from an unnecessary step. JMHO.

I completely agree with Brenda that there is NO WAY that an 8-10 wk old pup needs an e collar. When your dog can take a fair scolding and be better, but unphased by it would be a good mark. I think that generally this means something like 5 months for more mature pups who are fast and early starters and more like 10 for slower or more timid pups, with most falling in the middle. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting them just wear the collar sooner to get them conditioned to having it on during training time.

I can tell you from experience that puting yourself and your abilities/speed in training against one of the best in the country is not a good way to judge how you are doing. I can get more done with a colt in two rides than the vast majority of DIY at home trainers/owners can in a month. That doesn't mean that they aren't doing well, just means I've got 10,000% more experience. Same goes with Hickox. He certainly can get away with doing things sooner and more effectively than 99.9% of everyone else. Trying to keep up with that pace is only going to frustrate you and probably ruin your dog.
When you've been sure for two weeks that your dog is ready is probably a good time to move onto the next step. I'll venture out on a limb, and assure you that during those extra 10 training sessions, you'll have second guessed whether he's ready at least a couple of times, making you glad you waited a little bit longer before moving on. You very seldom hear anyone complain that there dog has too much foundation and understands the basics too well. We do all frequently see/hear about train wrecks caused by people trying to go too fast and skipping important steps that became larger issues farther down the road. My .02 cents, and more of my general view of training than any sort of accusation aimed at anyone on this board including the original poster.

[Ruffshooter]

I am just going to have to check out his clicker training stuff. But in all honesty, he was getting all the things you claim with his previous program and in similar time frame. If it is better and not wasted time than that is great and I would be fully on board but till then. I will keep my training bag and vest less complicated.

I do wish to go back to one of his schools but If I find the clicker thing to be a pain then it is wasted money. Too bad could not rent the DVD.

[Sharon]

I went to "clicker" classes just for fun with a young dog. The philosophy behind it is sound and it is a great way to teach obedience etc. around the house , in the car, in the yard. Treats are involved. My trainer trained seeing eye dogs and it was an excellent method for that. Once you get in the field though, its' use fades. Maybe George has found a way to transfer it to the field.

[Chukar12]

Clicker training is not necessarily transferred to the field, learned behaviors however are. The Hickox methodology is not markedly different than Smith methodology or a plethora of other professional trainers. The concept is that stress in dogs, horses, humans et al is manifested when there is a lack of solution to an applied pressure. Sort of the same concept that money isn't a problem until you don't have any...

George emphasizes in common dog trainer eloquence that if hitting a dog in the head with a hammer produces the best style and compliance that his seminars would be about hitting dogs in the head with a hammer. However, to his chagrin he has found and believes that an early 1900 behaviorist B.F. Skinner was on to something when he made popular the term operant conditioning. Skinners concepts were adopted by a number of animal trainers perhaps the most notable being those working with marine mammals. A clicker allows for instant recognition followed by subsequent reward for doing something right. Dogs are opportunistic and begin to "look" for opportunities to give a behavior that gets rewarded. Eventually the clicker and reward are phased out and the command that has been overlaid to the subsequent behavior remains.

Rick Smith may have simplified things best. We are looking for a dog to come to us, go with us and stand up and stand still. Using a clicker and little or no pressure, those behaviors and solutions can be shaped in very young puppies. Later, in any field dog training method, pressure has to be applied but behaviors established early on in clicker training quickly become solutions to the dogs pressure problems, they respond quicker with less pressure and this always leaves us with more style. The original question was about time, I doubt any notable trainer will answer that in anything other than generalities. When the behavior has been effectively taught and generalized in different environments to 80, 90, 95 % compliance...you pick… and the dog understands avoidance and correction in well understood behaviors, then it is time.