Educate Me

[daniel77]

The sit thread got way out of hand, so I thought this would be a better place to talk about the tangents that were generated there. I'm curious how, what and when most of ya'll are training your dogs. It would be helpful if a bit of background was included. Ft of just a hunter. When do you generally introduce the e-collar? What commands do you want on a pup? What commands do you want on a finished dog, and when is a dog finished? When do you start whoa? What's the general timeline, and overall goal that you have along with some of the milestones? etc.

I'll have only questions on this one, no opinions.

Thanks in advance.

[gonehuntin']

Daniel, there is such a WIDE variation in what bird dogs are used for that it would be impossibel to answer that question.
Some hunt upland only.
Some don't care if their dogs retrieve.
Some hunt waterfowl and little upland.
Some hunt both equally.
Some have dogs that handle on blinds, others consider it a sin.
Some even use them on fur.

Look at how much controversy and animosity the thread on sit generated. Different strokes for different folks; it just depends on what the dog is used for.

There is such a huge variation in how dogs are used that is is virtually impossible to answer your question.

[daniel77]

good point. thanks. I meant, but didn't specify, pointing dogs only. I'd like to hear the difference between the meat dog trainer vs the FT trainer. Schedule, desired outcome, retrieve, not retrieve, etc.

Another for instance, a poster on the other thread said that it took a lot of pressure to break a dog completely. I'd like to hear more about this. What do you consider broke? When should it be done? Do you want them broke to wing and shot, or not?

[gonehuntin']

good point. thanks. I meant, but didn't specify, pointing dogs only. I'd like to hear the difference between the meat dog trainer vs the FT trainer. Schedule, desired outcome, retrieve, not retrieve, etc.

Many pointing dogs Daniel, do all of those things and do them very well. DD's, PP's, GSP's, Griff's, etc. That's what makes it tough. They are so versatile they do it all.

[Elkhunter]

Daniel what kind of dog are you wanting to get? Versatile dog? English Pointer? As for meat dog training I dont think it really takes much training to get a decent meat dog. Almost any decently bred dog out of the respectable breeds will go out and point a bird. The first 4-6 months let the pup be a pup. Let it chase birds, rip birds, explore do whatever it wants. If your worried about it getting ran over etc, take it places where it can run without getting into those situations. At about 6 months I introduce "here" or "come" whatever you want to call it. Takes a week or two and they figure out what it means, I introduce the collar at this time also. Teach "kennel" after I teach "here". At about 10-12 month mark I start on "whoa". "Whoa" takes alot more pressure IMO than any of the other commands. Its very unatural for a high energy dog to just stand there. Hence the reason I dont teach sit, you apply pressure to get him to stand there, dog sits down because he is comfortable with that. It can be overcome but I would rather prevent a problem than fix one. After that just let the dog get into wild birds and they will teach him most things he would need to know after that. Obviously would have to address problems as they arise like continually ripping birds etc.

As for breaking a dog for competition it is a very lengthy and time consuming process that if not done correctly can affect the dogs style and independence.

[daniel77]

That is kind of where I'm getting crossed up here. I am a big fan of versatile dogs that are user friendly and take some of the work out of hunting. To me, that is the point of the dog, or at least was. However, I'm getting the impression that the pointing people are VERY selective about what and when they want their dogs to do. I'm sure they have their reasons, a lot of which I apparently don't understand. So what are the reasons?
I look at the GSP, who can retrieve about as well as a true retriever, and point as well as a pointer, yet some of the pointing guys seem (maybe I'm wrong, but the passion in the other post says a lot) highly offended that their dogs should do anything more than run big and point. I'm not being a smart a$$ here, that really is the impression I'm left with, and I certainly don't understand why this is. Why not train for the dog that can do it all, and exactly the way you want? Why leave so much of the dog's potential untapped? I'm sure a lot of the answers here go back to the trials, of which I am ignorant. So Please, Educate Me.

[Elkhunter]

There are thousands of very well trained GSP's that compete each month in trials. Many EP's retrieve very well, some dont. The biggest priority for me is my dog finding birds and covering ground. Coveys of birds where I live are few and far between in wide open spaces. I like a big ranging dog, for those that have birds everywhere in tight cover might opt to go with a different breed or line of dog than me. Its all about personal preference, neither is wrong or right. Just a matter of what you want.

[bwjohn]

Daniel it seems like you answered you own question. Many of the GSP guys are trial people, they are training and breeding for a specific goal. They want to compete and win in trials. AKC, AF and other organizations do not focus on the versatile dog the way that say NAVDHA does.

I am not trying to promote one over the other, I believe (and I do not think that I am far off) most people on here are more of the trialing crowd.

If you want a dog that is a "more well rounded dog" or takes "more advantage" of its versatility look for breeders that promote that in their lines. I use those terms more well rounded and etc very losely. And as someone pointed out there are a lot more breeds that are versatile than the GSP. I want to make sure that sounds right, you have more choice than GSP, not that anyone is particular more or less versatile than the GSP. That is a whole different topic and maybe its own forum, .

As far as training and what you want to do there it is completely up to you. You can go as fast or as slow as you comfort level and the dogs level. I am a hunter and for me I want my dog at the very least to be broke to shot. If he leaves before I give him the command to retrieve that is ok, I would like him to hold, but I am not being judged! My dog is still relatively young and we made a lot of improvements in the last year and he is my first dog. I am working toward the FT standard. The honoring, steady to shot and release and the full retrieve. A lot if his issues are mine as a first time bird dog trainer.

The biggest thing to me is the steady to shot, it is a safety issue in my mind. Wether it is me or a friend shooting I do not want to take a chance on losing my buddy over a very correctable problem.

brandon

[gonehuntin']

When you look at formats Daniel, look at NAVHDA. They are geared for the hunter that goes out one day and hunts pheasant, the next waterfowl. The dogs point, back, retrieve to hand, work from a duck blind through decoys, show obedience training, track, and duck search. It is what I would truly say in a hunters format.

[Ruffshooter]

Daniel:
I will speak for my self. I am mainly an upland Ruff hunter, with about 10 to 15 duck hunts and maybe two dedicated goose hunts. I use my GSP and French Britts.

My route:
puppy is a puppy and runs wild, let go in fields and woods and water if it wants on regular trips to explore and learn independence.
Basic house commands, whoa at the food bowl, sit or whoa at the door or for treats here when the pup is actually coming to me already, or when the check cord is on.
Put birds in the cut fields and let pup find and chase the first few. 8 weeks or so. Start gun conditioning from distance and while good things are happening ie birds and chasing and continue through out.
Playing fetch in a hallway or confined area, all in fun so pup has to come to me, has a check cord when outside.
Take the pup to wild bird covers hopefully find some. no check cord.
When the pup is moving pretty good feeling full of P&V a check cord goes on. 5 or 6 months, still putting birds out but holding pup up.
When the water is warm enough introduce pup to water with other dogs a live quail etc.
Introduce ducks on land then in the water.
If I am going to use an ecollar it will be on the dog around 5 or 6 months, just wearing it not using it at this point.
Collar condition before the formal whoa training if I will be using the ecollar. I don't always. Just because half the time it does not work or batteries run out.
I will formally whoa train when dog has seen plenty of wild birds and planted birds, maybe around 9 months.
After the first hunting season, FF the dog, continue the steadiness. etc. Work the marks and blinds. etc.


I think that is it, with adjustments depending on how the dog acts, how old at different times of the year etc.

Rick

[SeniorCoot]

I hope understand ther question but since i can't go snowmobiling today and dogs are taking a siesta I'll give her a go- first I am not a pro- I train my dogs for upland AND water work- we hunt quite a bit from Sept- to March in wild and on game preserves from MT to Wisc/ Ia/Mn etc. i presently have three labs- 2 BLMs 9&11yrs and a 21mos YLM-all were started at 7wks of age using Wolter's method-Yes the old bashed up guy. I also use J & A Dahl's-10 Minute Retriever- Fowl Dawgs DVD- Wild Rose DVD and Milner- Barlow-and Dobbs drill in the Tri Tronics book- I am not limited to any one system--I start and finish with OB--I like to get pups in winter so I can do this stuff inside-Sit- stay-heel down- lay down-and NO-give etc. By spring in Wi. pups are pretty good on basics- it's been fun till now- then i start right away with whistle- quatering- water work- intro to gun fire- dekes- etc- all easy- at 5-6 mos I FF and CC-Being retired with fairly good training grounds I can do two or more short sessions daily and reinforce basics while checking fences- counting cows- etc- during summer dogs go with me fishing and we do water work almost daily ditto OB-- when walking I reinforce heel and here and whistle--and quartering--We do blind and bird work in am in my pastures and with hills and cut pattern blinds etc I can do most anything I like and try to make it fun everyday-Is it the best or only plan-NO- but my pup has retrieved untolled dux and over 100 pheasant last fall and this winter-and the older boys have also had their share of work and our freezers are full. If you want I can elaborate on this PM me.

[snips]

To me training dogs is training dogs. As a trainer I will train a "meat" dog same as any other. Difference is how long someone wants to leave a dog and many people that just want enough steadyness to kill birds safely over a dog is fine. It is just another level of training. To go up to testing and trialing standards it just takes more time and exposure.

[daniel77]

Thanks for the replies so far, and please keep them coming. I had typed up another post last night, but must have hit the wrong button or something cause it isn't here now.

I made the decision on breed a couple of months ago, and will be picking up a male English Setter the first part of March. Our German Shepherd died last fall (who would retrieve ducks btw, though he was no lab) and this is the longest I've been dogless since my first as a kid. I own my own business and as a perk pretty much keep my dog with me all day everyday. This does mean that the manners and such are more important to me than they would be to most. I don't have a "kennel" and only have 1-2 dogs at a time, but those dogs do everything with us. If we go camping, so do they. If we go fishing, they are in the boat. This dog will pretty much only see pen-raised birds, as we don't really have any wild birds around, except for the woodcock migration in Dec-Jan. That being said, I'm not at all opposed to making future trips to other areas for hunts, that just wouldn't be the easiest/most frequent for me. Right now, I mostly duck/dove/goose hunt, but am really looking forward to adding more upland to my hunting diet. Before some of you have a heart attack about an ES and ducks, we will also be getting a lab this year, just waiting for the bitch to come in. I do not intend for the ES to be a duck dog, but I'm not going to promise anything .

[Winchey]

It is possible, there is a few NAVHDA Versatile Champion ES's out there.

[RayGubernat]

Daniel -

I think that part of the reason for your uncertainty of "what is going on here", is because of your focus when it comes to hunting and dogs. I detect "hunter" and especially "family hunter" responses.

I am absolutely not knocking that focus. I just want to point out(BAAAAD pun) that a different foucs can result in the exact same dog turning out two different ways.

Let me give you an example:

As a hunter and very likely, a somewhat occasional hunter, there is a a desire to keep the dog well within sight, and often within gun range most, if not all of the time. That is because the focus is to find and kill birds. There is, most often, a significantly lower acceptable level of style in the hunting dog, because the set of the tail or the fact that the dog's feet may move a tad, does not affect the dog's ability to help the hunter bring a bird to bag. It is also because, quite often, the the hunter's dog may not be not dead stone broke and the hunter is genuinely fearful of not coming home with the family pet.

As a trialer, there is a desire to see that dog on the outside edge of the envelope as regards ground application, because ...that is what wins. The focus is on finding and pointing birds with zero emphasis on killing birds. The focus is on the highest possible style, again because that is what wins and absolutely impeccable manners around birds , because a step at the wrong time will get the dog disqualified.
The trialer will indeed be very concerned about the way a dog's head and tail are when it is pointing or backing because that posture may differentiate between placing and not placing.

The trialer will encourage the dog to extreme ground application and will gladly accept the fact that the dog may...in fact SHOULD...course out of sight in search of game. Where the hunter would start whistling the dog back because he is getting that uneasy feeling in the pit of their stomach, the trialer is whistling the dog out because they are kinda used to that queasy feeling and they know that they can never know the thrill of topping a hill and finding their dog stacked up on point...unless you let the dog go over the hill in the first place.

To the hunt, the dog is the means by which hunters find birds to shoot . The taking of birds is the goal. The performance of the dog is only relevant as it helps to take birds. At a trial, the performance of the dog is the goal. The bird is the means by which the trialer gets to witness the performance of the dog.

I sincerely hope I have not further confused the issue.

Just because we have different goals and different needs fron our dogs to serve those goals , that does not mean we cannot appreciate the points of difference as well as the points of similarity in each endeavor.

RayG

[daniel77]

Ray,
I thank you for your post. I indeed fall into the "family hunter category". The area and terrain that I hunt is nowhere near as open as the terrain most of you are used to. Around here, especially where I'd be woodcock hunting, you may not see a pure white dog 15 yds away in some spots (my bad pun).
I totally agree with your assessment of differing desires having differing outcomes. The more I read into some of the things that are considered desirable, the more I think "I don't want my dog to do that". This isn't saying that ya'll are wrong, or I am right or know better than all of those here who have successfully been doing this for years and in some cases decades. A dog that points and freezes when he's still 50 yds away from the birds is not very useful to me. I'd rather him creep and show me within a reasonable distance where the birds are.
I'm sure I come off as country come to town, and that's okay. I'm more of a t-shirt and jeans kinda guy anyway. Not to say that I don't appreciate what the trial dogs do, or the work/knowledge that goes into them. I just have differing needs and wants from my dog than most of the trial people. I must admit that I didn't lurk here all that long, and didn't realize how predominant the trial POV was on this site. Not that that is a bad thing, I'll still pick your brains till you're all sick of me. I just may not see fit to use all the same stuff that ya'll do. I hope that is okay. Who knows. Maybe in ten years, I'll be the guy who used to hunt, but just runs trials now.

Thanks again for all the replies.

Daniel

[daniel77]

I will add that I commend all of the posters here who are lending their advice. Despite disagreeing with the predominant direction in another thread, I have received quite a few heartfelt PM's from several of you offering up your experience, and I thank you.

Daniel

[ezzy333]

Ray,
I thank you for your post. I indeed fall into the "family hunter category". The area and terrain that I hunt is nowhere near as open as the terrain most of you are used to. Around here, especially where I'd be woodcock hunting, you may not see a pure white dog 15 yds away in some spots (my bad pun).
I totally agree with your assessment of differing desires having differing outcomes. The more I read into some of the things that are considered desirable, the more I think "I don't want my dog to do that". This isn't saying that ya'll are wrong, or I am right or know better than all of those here who have successfully been doing this for years and in some cases decades. A dog that points and freezes when he's still 50 yds away from the birds is not very useful to me. I'd rather him creep and show me within a reasonable distance where the birds are.
I'm sure I come off as country come to town, and that's okay. I'm more of a t-shirt and jeans kinda guy anyway. Not to say that I don't appreciate what the trial dogs do, or the work/knowledge that goes into them. I just have differing needs and wants from my dog than most of the trial people. I must admit that I didn't lurk here all that long, and didn't realize how predominant the trial POV was on this site. Not that that is a bad thing, I'll still pick your brains till you're all sick of me. I just may not see fit to use all the same stuff that ya'll do. I hope that is okay. Who knows. Maybe in ten years, I'll be the guy who used to hunt, but just runs trials now.

Thanks again for all the replies.

Daniel

This is a great post and tells me we don't need to worry about you any more. I too am a hunter but have to admit I love the dogs much more than the birds so I like seeing my dogs range and hold a point more than shooting a bird to eat. However my first firm rule when teaching my boys is you do not kill anything you don't eat except for vermin of course. Glad to have you and sorry we got off on opposite sides of the street but think we have solved that problem.

Ezzy

[daniel77]

Thanks Ezzy.

And I do have a lot of perfectionist in me, so you can bet I'll always be trying to improve my dogs, just maybe in a different way.