I took my 16 month old V out to work with some planted quail this past weekend. This is really the first time she has been in birds in a real controlled situation where I knew where the birds were. I knew scenting conditions weren't ideal (wet) going in, but we charged ahead anyway. Didn't get any solid points but she found all that were planted, sometimes running by them once or twice before finding them.
A couple questions, first, I'm concerned about her nose, she ran right over a couple of birds without even acting like she smelled something. I know the conditions weren't good, but I know she was "bleep" near stepped on a couple of them. Like I said before this is her first time on birds in an actual hunting situation, but she sight points like crazy. I'm just concerned that I'm not getting the same reaction from her with her nose as her eyes. I'm assuming she just needs more birds and more time, but you know how it goes, you don't like thinking your dog is the slow kid in school.
Second, I did shoot a couple of the birds she quickly pointed (probably a mistake, but I wanted her to get to retrieve a couple) she tracked them perfectly, found them, sniffed them a bit, made sure they were dead and then turned around and gave a look like "Well, it's dead, but you're gonna have to pick it up". I couldn't get her to pick it up, even for a second. I know that's probably nothing new, but I've found her several times running around the yard with small bird that she's caught or fallen out a tree. Don't understand why she doesn't hesitate to pick those up, but not in the field. Is it because she gets to do the killing in the backyard and I do it in the field??
Order of Importance
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markm
Oh yeah, got a little long winded with the previous post and forgot the main question I wanted to ask. Should I work with her more on finding and holding point first and worry about the retrieve later? I guess there will be nothing for her to retrieve if we don't first find them?? I think I just answered my own question.
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ezzy333
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 16625
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
- Location: Dixon IL
Get her out and into birds. Bet after a trip or two she will be ok with the finding.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
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markm
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rschuster54303`
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:23 pm
- Location: Green Bay, WI
Couple of quick notes for you to try, heck maybe you already did but I have been suprised how the little things can be missed so here goes.
Your just starting, have fun, keep it fun this isn't work its all about you and the dog having a good time. I know we all have expectations I especially have them but as they say when your hard up and lonely, lower them and you will be suprised with what can happen.
In the wet I will assume it was damp, but not raining? If you are planting the birds try dropping a few belly fethers off of the bird down wind of the planted bird this will increase the scent cone and will help in tuff scenting conditions.
Are you working her on a check cord in these "controlled scenarios" ?
On your second question, others will probably disagree but we always start with retrieve. First it is easy to do with young dogs, its is very fun for them when done right and builds interest.
As a follow up to this you stated that "she will carry around brd she has caught in the yard" You may want to try ( with her on a checkcord 25') hoble a quail, pigeon what ever you have access to. I would post how we do that but I don't want to deal with PETA. After the bird is hobbled and dizzied toss the bird out for the pup and let it chase it and catch it, the pup may be slow to pick it up at first but after tossing it a couple times they generally get the idea. After they pick up the bird praise and attempt to gently pull the dog to you to collect it and repeat. Only do this a few times a day and if you get a good pick up and retrieve, STOP!
Here is my disclaimer, all dogs are different and will respond different to this method, some will be afraid of the bird others will eat the "bleep" thing it is up to you to work with the dog and coax what you want out of them.
P.S. I am newer here, I didn't post this to start a debate with anyone, if you don't like the method I use keep it to yourself I will return the favor.
Regards,
Rob
Your just starting, have fun, keep it fun this isn't work its all about you and the dog having a good time. I know we all have expectations I especially have them but as they say when your hard up and lonely, lower them and you will be suprised with what can happen.
In the wet I will assume it was damp, but not raining? If you are planting the birds try dropping a few belly fethers off of the bird down wind of the planted bird this will increase the scent cone and will help in tuff scenting conditions.
Are you working her on a check cord in these "controlled scenarios" ?
On your second question, others will probably disagree but we always start with retrieve. First it is easy to do with young dogs, its is very fun for them when done right and builds interest.
As a follow up to this you stated that "she will carry around brd she has caught in the yard" You may want to try ( with her on a checkcord 25') hoble a quail, pigeon what ever you have access to. I would post how we do that but I don't want to deal with PETA. After the bird is hobbled and dizzied toss the bird out for the pup and let it chase it and catch it, the pup may be slow to pick it up at first but after tossing it a couple times they generally get the idea. After they pick up the bird praise and attempt to gently pull the dog to you to collect it and repeat. Only do this a few times a day and if you get a good pick up and retrieve, STOP!
Here is my disclaimer, all dogs are different and will respond different to this method, some will be afraid of the bird others will eat the "bleep" thing it is up to you to work with the dog and coax what you want out of them.
P.S. I am newer here, I didn't post this to start a debate with anyone, if you don't like the method I use keep it to yourself I will return the favor.
Regards,
Rob
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markm
Rob thanks for the input.
She has retrieved since she was very young with no problem, balls, training dummy, whatever. I think once she does pick it up, I won't have any trouble getting her to retrieve to hand, but she doesn't seem to want to pick up the bird in the first place. I think I will try a hobbled bird and see what she does with that.
She has retrieved since she was very young with no problem, balls, training dummy, whatever. I think once she does pick it up, I won't have any trouble getting her to retrieve to hand, but she doesn't seem to want to pick up the bird in the first place. I think I will try a hobbled bird and see what she does with that.
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ezzy333
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 16625
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
- Location: Dixon IL
rschuster.
Its interesting to hear how different people train. I always worked retrieving with a pointer or setter but the continental breeds I do the opposite since they all pretty much retrieve on their own. My point is that some pups get so excited about retrieving they don't hold their point but try to catch the bird so they can retrieve.
However, I do think we all spend way too much time worring about training and what method we use. I want to see a dog hunt point and retrieve from instinct and I don't think there is 1 out of a hundred that need training in those areas. At least I hope I'm right because if I am wrong we are doing a miserable job of breeding.
The areas that need work is the manners part of the game. Steadiness, coming, whoaing, retrieving to hand sometimes are all areas that need to be taught, and the best method to use normally is common sense and a lot of repitition. Also we need to be patient. Give a pup time to be a pup and then remember how long it took you to be good at something. Would any of us be worried if we couldn't judge the distance in front of your front bumper the first time you pull into your garage and try to get as close as possible to the front wall. Or the distance you need to back up to hook up your trailer? Well I'm not at all concerned when a pup doesn't do things quite right the first year even in the field. Give the dog the same benefit that you give yourself. Exposure will solve most all problems we we think the pup has.
For most people training is not the end game. But for some of us it seems to be. Try to use training to eliminate problems but be sure there is a problem first. If there isnt a problem we don't need to train. We need to enjoy watching our dog solve the problems and any they can't then we need to help them. But by and large, any well bred hunting dog will be a more than adequate hunting partner without any training except the yard training. It is those of us that are trying to do a little more with our dogs that do more training and sometimes we get a little carried away with it.
Common sense will let you out smart your dog and tell you how to adjust her behavior if and when she needs it.
Ezzy
Its interesting to hear how different people train. I always worked retrieving with a pointer or setter but the continental breeds I do the opposite since they all pretty much retrieve on their own. My point is that some pups get so excited about retrieving they don't hold their point but try to catch the bird so they can retrieve.
However, I do think we all spend way too much time worring about training and what method we use. I want to see a dog hunt point and retrieve from instinct and I don't think there is 1 out of a hundred that need training in those areas. At least I hope I'm right because if I am wrong we are doing a miserable job of breeding.
The areas that need work is the manners part of the game. Steadiness, coming, whoaing, retrieving to hand sometimes are all areas that need to be taught, and the best method to use normally is common sense and a lot of repitition. Also we need to be patient. Give a pup time to be a pup and then remember how long it took you to be good at something. Would any of us be worried if we couldn't judge the distance in front of your front bumper the first time you pull into your garage and try to get as close as possible to the front wall. Or the distance you need to back up to hook up your trailer? Well I'm not at all concerned when a pup doesn't do things quite right the first year even in the field. Give the dog the same benefit that you give yourself. Exposure will solve most all problems we we think the pup has.
For most people training is not the end game. But for some of us it seems to be. Try to use training to eliminate problems but be sure there is a problem first. If there isnt a problem we don't need to train. We need to enjoy watching our dog solve the problems and any they can't then we need to help them. But by and large, any well bred hunting dog will be a more than adequate hunting partner without any training except the yard training. It is those of us that are trying to do a little more with our dogs that do more training and sometimes we get a little carried away with it.
Common sense will let you out smart your dog and tell you how to adjust her behavior if and when she needs it.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
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Casper
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 10:46 pm
- Location: northern nv
well said ezzy
rschuster you said that pup sight points like crazy. She obviosly has the instinct but she may not be utilizing her nose to its full ability. Does she inhale the world while out and about? If so you may just need to wait for better conditions.
When you have better conditions move her in to the bird at a 45* angle so when she hits the scent it will be more of a suprize to her and the instinct should take over and she will point. Maybe not long btu she willl figure it out.
rschuster you said that pup sight points like crazy. She obviosly has the instinct but she may not be utilizing her nose to its full ability. Does she inhale the world while out and about? If so you may just need to wait for better conditions.
When you have better conditions move her in to the bird at a 45* angle so when she hits the scent it will be more of a suprize to her and the instinct should take over and she will point. Maybe not long btu she willl figure it out.
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rschuster54303`
- Rank: Senior Hunter
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:23 pm
- Location: Green Bay, WI
Casper this isn't my dog, I was offering a suggestion to markm, and Ezzy commented on what I had posted as a suggestion to markm. 
Ezzy, as I am sure you noted my disclaimer in my post I will only offer this as a comment.
This person was looking for a suggestion and help. I agree 90% of the time "Birds" are the answer, but an actual "tip" on how to proceed would probably be a little more useful then "Birds" as an answer.
I am sure in your years of training?? you have come across every type of customers' dog and they are almost all different, needing help in different areas. The tuff things about a forum is that you have no background, you can't see the dogs body language or how it handles a cituation. This makes helping anyone via the net hit or miss at best, simply put your excited, big running or staunch poiner may be average at best to some one else... the written word is pure interpretation at best.
About your comment of
Good luck Mark keep it fun.
Rob
Ezzy, as I am sure you noted my disclaimer in my post I will only offer this as a comment.
This person was looking for a suggestion and help. I agree 90% of the time "Birds" are the answer, but an actual "tip" on how to proceed would probably be a little more useful then "Birds" as an answer.
I am sure in your years of training?? you have come across every type of customers' dog and they are almost all different, needing help in different areas. The tuff things about a forum is that you have no background, you can't see the dogs body language or how it handles a cituation. This makes helping anyone via the net hit or miss at best, simply put your excited, big running or staunch poiner may be average at best to some one else... the written word is pure interpretation at best.
About your comment of
No command other then come is really needed the first year, and repitition is key to every part of dog training.The areas that need work is the manners part of the game. Steadiness, coming, whoaing, retrieving to hand sometimes are all areas that need to be taught, and the best method to use normally is common sense and a lot of repitition.
Good luck Mark keep it fun.
Rob
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Casper
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 10:46 pm
- Location: northern nv
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markm
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HUTCH
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ViniferaVizslas
Make sure your working your dog toward the bird into the wind. If the bird's down wind your dog won't smell it. If there's no wind, don't train.
I'd hold off retrieving in the field until you've got the search and point down. If she likes retrieving dummies, use them and always fire a shot before you allow her to retrieve. Then put wing feathers on them, then have her retrieve pigeons which have smooth feathers. I use live (I don't use them for pointing work) ones with a rubber band around the wing. It discourages the dog from playing with the bird or dropping it. If she does, it flies away - game over. Finally use game birds in cool weather. Stop if the dog starts to pant, continuing will be futile.
A lot of dogs, including my current V project behave as yours does. My 11 mo. old girl is now retrieving every woodcock & duck I shoot. Not always immediately or perfectly to hand but that can be fixed later. She loves to retrieve but she just doesn't like all those fluffy feathers in her mouth. Especially when it was warm out. She's getting used to it ad there will come a time when she associates it positively and absolutely with hunting. That is the time to finish her performance.
You need to build a pattern of behaviors that the dog can recognise and build them into the behavior you desire. If that series doesn't work you'll have to force fetch her after her other training is done. Don't put too much pressure on a Vizsla or you'll create a lot of issues.
I'd hold off retrieving in the field until you've got the search and point down. If she likes retrieving dummies, use them and always fire a shot before you allow her to retrieve. Then put wing feathers on them, then have her retrieve pigeons which have smooth feathers. I use live (I don't use them for pointing work) ones with a rubber band around the wing. It discourages the dog from playing with the bird or dropping it. If she does, it flies away - game over. Finally use game birds in cool weather. Stop if the dog starts to pant, continuing will be futile.
A lot of dogs, including my current V project behave as yours does. My 11 mo. old girl is now retrieving every woodcock & duck I shoot. Not always immediately or perfectly to hand but that can be fixed later. She loves to retrieve but she just doesn't like all those fluffy feathers in her mouth. Especially when it was warm out. She's getting used to it ad there will come a time when she associates it positively and absolutely with hunting. That is the time to finish her performance.
You need to build a pattern of behaviors that the dog can recognise and build them into the behavior you desire. If that series doesn't work you'll have to force fetch her after her other training is done. Don't put too much pressure on a Vizsla or you'll create a lot of issues.