Bird Launchers II

[markm]

I know there is another thread already going on this subject, but didn't want to butt in on that one.

I've heard that when working with launchers, the ideal # is three launchers to work the dog on in one session, but my question is. Is it possible to only use one launcher? Plant the bird, work the dog in. Return the dog to the truck and plant another bird, repeat, repeat. Is this an impossible scenario? In a perfect world, I'd get all the equipment I need, but just isn't feasible now. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[markm]

Oh yeah, finally got my avatar up. It's an old pic of my V when she was 7-8 months. I'll get a new one up soon.

Finally got proof that I'm a V owner. So you GSP and EP folks can start with the comments!!!

[goddog]

Sure, one launcher will work, more just make easier specially when putting on the forward pattern on a young dog or when working with multiple dogs.

[Small Munsterlander]

Markm: There is no magic number of launchers. Many often over work a pup/dog because they have several launchers. There certainly are occasions when having two or three will allow for advanced progressions BUT in the beginning (and allowing you to purchase a second or third later) one launcher is a good number because it will prevent too much repitition at the wrong time. Humans tend to think more is best when it reality it may not be. The trap many fall into is if the dog did great lets do it again (almost until they fail or the human has proved a point). What often works much better for the dog's mind is put the dog up after a successful job on a bird. Let the dog think about it. The same is true of a failure. When first starting out one remote launcher is far better than several manual and if the budget won't allow several remotes. But don't get caught up in the belief if I have two or three I have to use them all.

One of the common knocks on the Innotek launchers is the quality of the basket and the reliability of the remote because of programing issues. Tritronics makes a receiving unit that can convert certain manual baskets to remote and as has been suggested on the other launcher thread there is the conversion using the small radios (I have built several of these for clients and they work very well for less than half the price of Dogtra). Dogtra does make a very reliable remote. I have used them and they have some nice features for a price.

Part of owning any training equipment is understanding it's strong points and shortcoming then taking those into consideration when training. Bill

[Casper]

II've heard that when working with launchers, the ideal # is three launchers to work the dog on in one session.

I have heard a similar thing only it was stated that dogs learn in 3s and 5s. The person wasnt real sure why but he said it held water.

I spent the money and bought 4 Dogtras and now wish I would have only got 3.

I think that it also depends on the dog. At the current state of training my dog is in he is only good for 2 birds than the 3rd he just wants to bust it. Since I am using birds to balance the training 2 is enough (keeps him wanting more like it should be).

[Small Munsterlander]

This is the first I've ever heard of dogs learning in 3's or 5's. I won't knock it but will say that a number of pros and amateurs that have very good reputations and I correspond with regularly have never mentioned this "magic" number or numbers. Most of us agree strongly on sometimes putting a dog up when a lesson or training session goes properly on the first go.

I think one of the strongest arguments for two launchers is to do multiple flushes when teaching stop to flush otherwise the argument for more than one launcher is convenience. Most trainer seem to feel they need to justify all the prep time and travel time to training sites by doing multiple reps. Which in reality probably causes many more problems than ingrains solid behavior in the dog. It becomes whats best for the human and time management rather than whats best for the dog.

You could do a poll regarding number of units owned by the responders and I'm certain the majority wouldn't own 3 and certainly not 5. Not that this would necessarily indicate what is best for dogs. If you accept that there is a magic number of reps needed for optimum learning that still doesn't mean you can't use one launcher 3 or 5 times (which ever is the magic number). Sounds like a good argument to increase the bag limits for pheasants where the number is only two. or only hunt ducks, quail, chukar, huns or grouse. Bill

[Casper]

not necessarily a magic number but on an "average" it is probably how it works out for a dog to accomplish what is being asked of it

but like this guy said he didnt know why but it worked for him

[TAK]

This is the first I've ever heard of dogs learning in 3's or 5's. I won't knock it but will say that a number of pros and amateurs that have very good reputations and I correspond with regularly have never mentioned this "magic" number or numbers. Most of us agree strongly on sometimes putting a dog up when a lesson or training session goes properly on the first go.

I think one of the strongest arguments for two launchers is to do multiple flushes when teaching stop to flush otherwise the argument for more than one launcher is convenience. Most trainer seem to feel they need to justify all the prep time and travel time to training sites by doing multiple reps. Which in reality probably causes many more problems than ingrains solid behavior in the dog. It becomes whats best for the human and time management rather than whats best for the dog.

You could do a poll regarding number of units owned by the responders and I'm certain the majority wouldn't own 3 and certainly not 5. Not that this would necessarily indicate what is best for dogs. If you accept that there is a magic number of reps needed for optimum learning that still doesn't mean you can't use one launcher 3 or 5 times (which ever is the magic number). Sounds like a good argument to increase the bag limits for pheasants where the number is only two. or only hunt ducks, quail, chukar, huns or grouse. Bill

I too go by this rule of thumb. I think it is ment 3 reps done perfect. However I will increase the numbers as it becomes more fluide. I have 4 remote traps and 2 manual ones. When I am starting a dog I will work 3 birds and leave them wanting more. When the dog messes up on the first or third I correct them and then move right to the other trap or carded bird. I am looking for 3 reps done to my satifation.

I also will never put a dog up if he does 1 bird right. I will go to the next and see if it was true. And if that one was done right I will go to the 3rd and maybe the 4th. Thing is dogs, not all of them will get a little rattled after so many birds. You are teaching this dog not to get rattled and he should handle the 100th on the same as the 1st.

[TAK]

II've heard that when working with launchers, the ideal # is three launchers to work the dog on in one session.

I have heard a similar thing only it was stated that dogs learn in 3s and 5s. The person wasnt real sure why but he said it held water.

I spent the money and bought 4 Dogtras and now wish I would have only got 3.

I think that it also depends on the dog. At the current state of training my dog is in he is only good for 2 birds than the 3rd he just wants to bust it. Since I am using birds to balance the training 2 is enough (keeps him wanting more like it should be).

Knowing that he comes unglued on 3 should make it easier for you to correct him at the right time. Work and correct on #3 bird and proof with #4

[Small Munsterlander]

I wouldn't have a problem with doing several reps when a dog is pass the point of knowing what is expected BUT as I assume this is a young pup and is being introduced to steadiness it is way to early for proofing and asking for a repeat ed success is likely to create a train wreck and then you end up stopping after a failure.

I guess if I go back to the original question I see no reason accept convenience as to why you can't simply repeat using the same launcher (I and many others have done it) and you will need to decide how many reps seem to work for your pup. More is not always better. Bill

[Wagonmaster]

The magic number is actually 3.14159265. Do that many reps, and the dog will get it right away, or at least he/she will stop running around in circles.

[Small Munsterlander]

Now that number makes much more sense. I don't wish to start a war but find a firm number of reps difficult to accept considering the variety of personalities and abilities found in pups and dogs. I also would have thought that a specific number of reps would have been thrown out there by the obedience folks or the science community. I think training is about reading the dog and adjusting to what you see and if your inexperienced you do some experimenting and get a set of experienced eyes to help. Bill

[Dirtysteve]

Wagonmaster
Well I'm only a few off that # with 314159200 more to go
I have 2 launchers now and 2 more I'm building( waiting on parts)
I usually work about 3 reps , more if I bring more birds, and try to end on a good note. I always try to end with extra birds left so If he makes a mistake on the last one, I can replant and correct right then.

[Wagonmaster]

Well I'm only a few off that # with 314159200 more to go

You are saved by the "point." The magic number, pi, is 3 "point" 14159265etc.etc.adinfinitum.

I agree, there is no magic number for bird dogs, although three works pretty good most of the time.

[snips]

I actually learned using 3 rep`s in my obedience days from an instructor that patterned animal learning behavior from the dolphin trainers. Anyway, I have used it thru hi levels of obedience, and now training birddogs. It is not set in stone, as a dog may very well do 2 perfect, then blow the 3rd. In which case I may rework this dog, or know what we have to work on next time.

[Maurice]

Interesting discussion about the number of reps on birds per work out. I tend to agree with Bill on this. Another point that gets conflicting answers with the different trainers is about how many days per week does the dog get bird work, with some it is everyday and with others it might be 2 or 3 days per week.

Mo

[Wagonmaster]

I find that every day works for awhile, but then they start to get stale and burned out after about a week to ten days of it, and it is time to let it rest for a couple. Now I generally only go three days a week.

[Greg Jennings]

Talked to a pro trainer at a hunt test once. He said with a straight face that he did 25 reps on a given dog.

My V can take a lot of reps provided that you can make it a fun game for him. But 25, no way.

Best,

[Small Munsterlander]

I think the secrete to setting the number of reps for any aspect of training is to let the pup/dog tell you what IT can handle and still want a bit more. It is better to error on the side of caution. To often it is the trainer that wants to tell the dog what they are going to do instead of reading the dog. If you are inexperienced rarely and with less price paid will doing less hurt. The North American Puritan Work Ethic often causes humans to inflict the MORE is BETTER philosophy and some dogs never bought into that. Bill

[Margaret]

I agree with Bill.

If the pup or dog does something very well, then you have to force yourself to stop. The dog will remember that occassion, which was good from our point of view.

I also have read that if the dog makes a complete hash of, say pointing it's bird, then do obedience work straight off to place
that ontop the dogs memory of events.
I suppose from the above that you could carry on until the dog did work it's bird well, but it depends on the situation no doubt.

[scotton]

I think my biggest fear using only one launcher and returning to the truck every time is that the first time you go hunting, the dog may point a bird, do everything right, then head to the truck.

[Small Munsterlander]

Not if you are in control and the pup/dog has any measure of desire (and you'll know that way before your pup/dog sees a launcher). I am not suggesting for a minute that you can't do more than one rep BUT it is wise to know what's going on with the pup/dog. As the dog learns you then can add more reps (within reason for the dog) and correct as needed. This single rep thing is no more a hard rule than 3.14..... or 5. But starting off g-o-s-l-o-w. Bill

[llewgor]

I think my biggest fear using only one launcher and returning to the truck every time is that the first time you go hunting, the dog may point a bird, do everything right, then head to the truck.

[Ayres]

I think my biggest fear using only one launcher and returning to the truck every time is that the first time you go hunting, the dog may point a bird, do everything right, then head to the truck.

Hey, as long as you don't miss....

[Casper]

I have also heard that some trainers will only put the dog on birds to balance the more stressfull training like whoa or heal. Something like X days training work than a day of birds than as the dog starts to get things right more often the more it gets birds.

IMO if you only had one launcher to work with it will work fine because your dog knows you are puting out birds for it to find. I realized this tonight when I was getting some help. Pup will likley want go to the area he heard you go to and start its search there. So if you have to put him up every time to reload the trapthats fine. IF you have a helper he/she can pick up the launcher and reload it and put it in a new spot while you are moving the dog out of sight.