Dog killing cripples....

[goatkisser]

I have a 2 YO Boykin Spaniel that I have been training. She is mainly a retriever and has picked up maybe 50 birds??
My problem is, when working with clipped wing pigeons she kills 'em. She's not trying to eat or chew 'em up she just kills 'em.
She's rough on a dove, too. Will this turn into a major problem? What can I do to help it?

[Sharon]

Maybe I'm missing something in your post but if she's picked up 50 birds to your satisfaction, why are you using clipped - wing pigeons now?

[goatkisser]

She has a sloppy mouth and is very timid, she hasn't picked up any cripples just dead birds.
I was trying to build up her drive by letting her chase some clipped wing pigeons.

[tommyboy72]

My dogs do this with wild pheasant mainly because they don't like getting spurred. Has she been scratched by a pigeon or flogged by the wings? The dog may be doing this in order to avoid having this happen again. My dogs never chew on the birds but if I wound one they will run out and grab it and bite down until the bird ceases to move before returning for the retrieve. Just a thought.

[goatkisser]

I don't think she has had any bad experiences w/ pigeons.
I've used frozen pigeons but that seems like it would cause more problems by not showing if she's being rough on them.

My dogs never chew on the birds but if I wound one they will run out and grab it and bite down until the bird ceases to move before returning for the retrieve. Just a thought.

Is this bad? Will it evolve into a major problem or should I not worry about it so much?

[tommyboy72]

Mine never chew birds or even hardmouth them unless they are moving and flopping and mostly only with pheasant, I really don't have a problem with them doing it with poorly hit blue quail. Of course the quail don't put up a fight like the wounded pheasant do when a dog picks them up. Just in my experience I would say it should not be a problem later on but I am only a hunter and not a trialer and have never had any birds that were chewed up bad enough to not eat them, the dogs only hold them down just hard enough to kill them where they stop moving. Occasionally they will grab one by the head and shake it and once or twice a head has popped off but they always complete the retrieve and I don't eat the heads anyway. The problem could lie in the problem that you are using hard, frozed birds. Try using thawed out or freshly killed birds. Just a thought.

[chicago0517]

The birds are probably having a heart attack, for lack of a better description. Not uncommon at all.

[gonehuntin']

First, you problem may be cured by ff and frankly, that's what I'd do.

Second, I find no fault with a dog killing a bird as long as they don't shred the bird and eat it. They're hunting dogs; if they kill the bird, I don't have to.

[goatkisser]

I'm going to try FF, hate to do it but I'm gonna try.

[goatkisser]

I've been using force (ear pinch) for 10 days twice a day. I have to use force every time and she is just opening her mouth with me still having to put the dummy in. She is not bugging, or showing any signs of cowering, in fact she seems kind of upbeat. I feel like I am forcing her to open her mouth instead of her trying to beat the pinch. (does that make sense?)
I also feel like I should apply more pressure, any advice?

[mrrosey]

I hunt with a young springer. She is real soft mouthed on live pigeons but usually kills a crippled pheasant. To me that is a good thing it puts the bird down faster. She never tears up the bird.

[Shadow]

First, you problem may be cured by ff and frankly, that's what I'd do.

Second, I find no fault with a dog killing a bird as long as they don't shred the bird and eat it. They're hunting dogs; if they kill the bird, I don't have to.

you contradict yourself- first you obedience train so they do what you want- all the time- yet you say it's ok if yours kill birds

[gonehuntin']

you contradict yourself- first you obedience train so they do what you want- all the time- yet you say it's ok if yours kill birds

Yes, actually, it's OK if any hunting dog kills a bird as far as I'm concerned. I find no fault in that as long as they don't stand there and tear a bird apart. I find no value in a dog retrieving a live bird.

Most dogs kill a bird by putting the giant squeeze on it. You rarely even find broken ribs. I don't personally see that as problem in a dog. Just my personal view.

[tommyboy72]

Well put gonehunting. I would rather the dog do the dirty work if I make a poor shot so I don't have to ring the birds neck especially pheasant they have tough necks and sometimes you have to really give them a good swing to get them to go ahead and die. Quail I just pop the heads off and feed them to the dogs anyway. They love em.

[Shadow]

I was just surprised- you hear of such well obedience trained dogs yet you wonder

mostly mine fall pretty hard- course I do shoot up kind of close

[Dennmor]

I was just surprised- you hear of such well obedience trained dogs yet you wonder

mostly mine fall pretty hard- course I do shoot up kind of close

Shadow,I'm a little surprised too. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish with your off-handed remarks?
dennmor

[Shadow]

really if folks are so gung ho on strict obedience and that the dog is always obedient- where does allowing the dog to kill criples come in- seems somewhere someone messed up

I'd not call a dog that kills criples totally trained

[gonehuntin']

Can you tell us Shadow what killing a cripple has to do with obedience? I have no idea where you're coming from or what you're possibly trying to say.

[Shadow]

Can you tell us Shadow what killing a cripple has to do with obedience? I have no idea where you're coming from or what you're possibly trying to say.

took you some time huh- ok- you say you only have very well obedience trained dogs, would not be anywhere arround any that weren't- you call a dog that bites down and kills criples well trained- I don't

[gonehuntin']

Can you tell us Shadow what killing a cripple has to do with obedience? I have no idea where you're coming from or what you're possibly trying to say.

took you some time huh- ok- you say you only have very well obedience trained dogs, would not be anywhere arround any that weren't- you call a dog that bites down and kills criples well trained- I don't

Absolutely. I'll also tell you this. There isn't a thing you can do to CURE a hard mouthed dog. You may possibly control it, you will NEVER cure it. You will NEVER stop a dog from killing a bird.

Killing a bird has nothing to do with how a dog is trained. How a dog delivers a bird is usually a genetic trait of that line of dogs. I don't know of a reputable trainer anywhere that will say he can CURE a hard mouthed dog.

Again, if you consider soft mouthed dogs an attribute, that's fine. I don't care on way or another whether a dog delivers a bird alive or dead. Like you don't care if a dog is obedience trained or not.

I really don't know though how you live and hunt with dogs that are not obedient dogs. To me, that is the very first stage of the actual training of any dog.

[Shadow]

Again, if you consider soft mouthed dogs an attribute, that's fine. I don't care on way or another whether a dog delivers a bird alive or dead. Like you don't care if a dog is obedience trained or not.

I really don't know though how you live and hunt with dogs that are not obedient dogs. To me, that is the very first stage of the actual training of any dog.

I've only had one Brittany that crunched roosters- because he got spurred when young- it didn't bother me either- that when he picked one up who fought he crunched

I knew quite a few brittany's folks who'd laugh about someone who said it was ok that's their's crunched

so ok- I like mine to bring them back alive- I've even brought some home and let them loose- NSTRA cleanup was fun- that male thought those quail who didn't like to fly should be brought back- I agreed- it's how I started keeping some

oh- I also prefer to watch good dogs who don't crunch birds

supposed since you've never seen any of my Britt's- you know they aren't well behaved- because I didn't obedience train

[gonehuntin']

You've altered the entire thread shadow. CRUNCHING birds is a fault, and a bad one. Killing birds is not. I don't much care for birds with ribs sticking throught the meat.

[Shadow]

sorry, didn't mean to alter - killing/crunching was an old term I guess