Style....

[luke0927]

I guess this could go here or in the general not really training specific. For those of you who train a dog all the way out wing shot just a full finished dog. Do you think that during the training that the dog kind of "loses" (i want to say loses but thats not really the best word) some style...Its like they seem to know when its the real thing.....Just wanted to hear some of your thought on keeping or building style and do you make it a major concern in training.


Below is the dog im working STWS now...today was here 2nd session and she stood all birds had a lot of head movement but didn't try and break at the shot...(im going to video the next session if i can get a help)


Here is a picture on a hunt that were release birds but not planted they had been released several days before (actually going through and cleaning up after FT the weekend before) to me it has style nice tight body doesn't move an inch while you walk around etc....




this is just a planted bird doing some training and letting the dog run some before is started finishing her (this was a couple weeks ago) Also very warm like it is today....(when it warm i only have the session very short) to me this is a "hey i smell the bird its right here" but not that intensity you look for

[bobman]

Yes I am certain of it, my old shorthairs walk in and eat planted quail sometimes, they will hold a point on wild ones forever

they lose intensity and style on planted birds

[RayGubernat]

luke -

It is not at all uncommon for a dog to "lose a little" during the breaking process. The dog's style may suffer and its range may also become restricted...both I believe due to the uncertainty of the dog as to "just what the heck do you want me to do, boss?" However, it is also a reasonable expectation for that same dog to get pretty much all of that style back once it regains the confidence and "swagger" that it had as a youngster.

Most dogs out this way are trained on planted birds and those that are successful field trial dogs do not let down...no matter what. I have trained a few myself, on planted birds and they do not let down. I did have one dog, trained exactly the same way as the others that did some weird stuff around birds, so yes it can happen.

I firmly believe it is partly how you bring the dog along and partly how the dog is put together mentally. Obviously, to maintain the highest levels of style, you would be well advsed to use as little pressure on the animal as required to get the job done.

RayG

[578SLE]

I believe style, or lack there of, has a lot to do with how much pressure both the trainer and the training method puts on the dog. It almost seems like a mathematical equation: more pressure equals less style. Where the mental make up of the dog comes into play is in how much pressure the dog can take and still maintain style and independence. Many dogs that I have seen become very mechanical when steadied through to WSF --especially if the training method used applies lots of pressure.

The key is trying to understand what constitutes pressure, reading a dog through the training process, and using training methods that limit that pressure. My first "mentor" that taught me to train believed that he was not putting pressure on the dogs because he did not do yard work, but I came to realize that his training method put tons of pressure on his dogs. He is very successful at getting many dogs to the MH lever, but because they lose so much style he has trouble with FTs. He also has his fair share of washouts --dogs that just quit due to the pressure. What might be an interesting discussion is what training techniques transmit more or less pressure and that effects style. Moreover, what I am learning in working with other dogs is how different various breeds and or lines of dogs respond to pressure and how some breeds and or lines of dogs actually require more pressure than others.

[rapid fire]

If you need someone to video, all you have to do is call. What method have you used to train your dogs? They sure look good and look like they work really hard for you.

[47sgs]

I agree with the previous posts that state the let down is proportional to the amount of pressure put on the dog, as well as it's genetic make up and initial bird drive.
This 16 month old setter pup is completely steady to wing, shot and fall. It is force fetched, and retieves aggressively only on command. This was done slowly, carefully, with minimal pressure, and tons of pigeons and chukar primarily by Ray Middleton of Weiser, Id. This dog has no let down, period. It hunts like it has afterburners, and could care less if the birds are wild or planted. I think the results achieved are because of the extreme care Ray took not to put much pressure on him, and the large number of birds used without overwelming the dog.

[luke0927]

Nice setter.....its not really a problem with the dog cowering or lowering its head etc when moving out in front like its anticipating a correction....Thats why i think after the training is "finished" the better the dog will look as it gets on more and more birds and handles them correctly.

[Shadow]

I see style as a pretty thing to look at that I sure don't expect on every point-