Help from Trialers please

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Sharon
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Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:18 pm

I have a good trialing setter. She was Derby Dog of the Year for Ontario ( American Field). Spring trials start next week and she will be in the Shooting Dog Stakes.

She's doing something that will hurt her chances and what I've done to solve the problem has not helped a lot.

Instead of turning from way out there to see where I am and keep going, she comes quite a ways back in. I have tried hollering at her , singing her forward, using the turn command, I have tried ignoring her and lately I have been using the e-collar on continuous as she heads back , shutting it off the moment she turns back. This has helped but not entirely.

Could this possibly be hereditary? :) Her Mother did the same thing.
Last edited by Sharon on Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vzkennels

Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by vzkennels » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:24 pm

Are you running her from a horse,4 wheeler,walking?

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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:47 pm

Sorry. Should have said walking.
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kninebirddog
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:57 pm

i do believe that there are some things that are inherent...and yes swing back when one bitch was bred to this one dog he was more forward she swung back when bred with this one female pups did what she sis
when bred to another female they were more forward like the new female he was bred with

then i came across a breeding which was from the sister to the check around female ...and yes the pups she had same traits they swung around and got behind quite a bit even more so then the first female

so what does a mother put into pups from the breedings and stuff some friends and I have experimented with in years past..made for some nice hunting dogs but the one trait had those ups 2 3 4 and just out of 1st place wasn't near as noticeable with the males side but the female yes very noticeable

that was four different peoples observances with the same line different pups and different off springs to bad as the other traits the females had to offer were nice but ...that was one thing that just wasn't over come


one thing that did help some though

also walking ..that will not help in getting a dog to stay forward either...dogs move fast we people do not move fast enough fr them so they either make wider sweeps or they stop to find out where you are at

you can alwasy work at teh singing them forward

was a couple of the guys would literally run their horses at the dogs..i will let your come up with your own reasons as to what they were doing and thinking but all I can say is it did work to some extreme
no yelling as sometime yelling will actually cause the dog to come in more in a form of shut down
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Sharon, I've never tried to break a dog of doing this, because as a heavy counter hunter, I think it desireable.

If I wanted to break a dog of swinging in or yo-yoing, I'd teach the dog and over hand back like the retriever guys use on blinds. Every time the dog turned at started in, I'd whoa the dog, then cast it back with maybe even a low intensity touch of the collar. I really don't know how else you'd actually stop a dog from doing that.
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by vzkennels » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:38 pm

Like knine said when the dog turns back to you pick up your pace as much as possible to get the dog to go back out ahead of you,it's much easier to do on a horse or 4 wheeler.Being on foot will make that more difficult though.

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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:18 pm

Thank you folks for your insight.
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:18 pm

Sharon tend to agree when walking it doesn't matter how fast you walk that dog is always going to be "waiting" on you. Waiting meaning she comes back to say, hey lets get going. One thing may be alitlle immaturity also that she should grow out of. But once you get on a horse you should be able to keep up with her so sh ewon't have to come back to get you.

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:45 pm

Sharon I have been going through the same thing with a 20 month old...coming into her shooting dog season this fall. She does it 60% of the the time with me as I handle off foot. Trainer says she runs a lot better with him off wheeler or horseback. We are just going to keep pushing her and see if she outgrows it and learns to stay out. I also think she does it with me because I do not handler her a lot (when she is at the trainers) and when I do, she wants to be with me.

Looking forward to any more "tricks"

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by DGFavor » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:41 pm

Personally when I have a dog that likes to keep coming straight back at me, my initial goal is to get them to bend their direction of travel to anywhere but directly at me, even if just by a few feet. Rather than rush or charge directly at the dog in head on collision fashion to chase them off, I've had better luck hustling off at 45 degrees one way or the other - almost like I'm trying to get away from the dog or outflank 'em. When I head off at that angle the dogs sort of sense they need to get a lead on me, just like shooting when we sense the lead we need to connect on a crossing bird shot. When they see me heading off in a different direction, often they'll bend off their direct line at me going for more of an intercepting route. When they veer off their direct return path, I get heavy on the praise and start my drive call or whistle encouraging 'em to keep bending, keep bending, keep bending... and when they take the front, ridiculous praise and push the pace a little. Like all training, it's a patience/repetition thing, and after a while it seems when the dogs are coming back for a check in and I see it, all it takes is a quick change in my profile or a change in the horses head/tail profile to quickly bend 'em off and get 'em huntng new country. Then I can quickly return to my initial direction of travel down course hopefully with the dog redirected. Basically I just try and get 'em to move their feet/direction of travel anywhere but directly at me...unless they are heck bent on returning to ya', most driven bird dogs are pretty distractable and seem to find somewhere more interesting to go once you get their body moving in a different direction.

In a trial I think it looks much better to redirect the dog in a bending, praising fashion than chase 'em off in turn tail "get outta here" method. As a judge, when I see folks chasing their dogs out, they're pretty much telling me they are unhappy with what they are seeing with their dog.

Works for me but individual results and mileage will vary... :lol:

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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:02 pm

Thanks very much. I'm hoping she finds a bird away out there in the first 10 minutes, in which case i know she won't be coming back. :)
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by R-Heaton » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:39 pm

Sharon,,, from my experience range and yo-yo'ing has alot to do with conditioning. The better the shape the longer it takes them to want to come back and check in. Out here in the west one of the big cures is have them in great condition and run them in open country where the objectives are along ways out there but easily seen. Long valleys with sage brush patches and rock outcroppings that they can see but have to run 5-10 minutes to get there. Another great cure but this takes alot of patience and self control. Everybody wants to leave their dog down running in hopes of a bird or out doing your buddy. But after you cut them loose and your dog makes its first big cast then wants to start checking back,,,,, pull the roading harness out and make them pull you around. Works great when you have a partner or multiple dogs down,,, really brings out the competitive side in them having to be restraint and they will learn coming back to you means put back in the harness. I have had more pros tell me this is the most successful cure than any other method. I might also mention make sure you have a drive call or a whistle,,, the dog has to know what you want in the first place.

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:06 pm

I've printed off these responses and will keep them front and centre when training. It's great to have a site with so much expert help. Big bucks are paid for this kind of help and i can get it for free here. :) Thank you to those who help the less experienced. ( Do miss Ross and Charlie.)

After having quite a few dogs but never a Champion, it has hit me how difficult it is to have a Champion. EVERYTHING has to be working., from an initial good breeding. to wise early training to........even then the dog can have one fault that can keep him out of the winner's circle - tail intensity missing. gait not quite right, taking steps etc.... My hat is off to those of you that have a Champion , let alone have won some of those prestigious stakes. Bravo to the dog and to you.
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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:39 pm

Well she left me with my mouth open at last week-end's trial. Took off like she was on fire. Never came back once. Had two staunch finds far from me and held until i got there - to flush and shot. Near the end she ripped around a corner far from me and bumped a bird on the path around the corner. Then held until I got there, but the judge saw that bump. Disappointing but it looks to me like when she's with another dog, she staying out front. :)
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by slistoe » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:02 am

By bump I assume you mean the dog intentionally put the bird to flight.

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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:55 am

Do we have to be that specific? LOL
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by slistoe » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:29 pm

Not to cause trouble or anything, but unless the judge saw it go down what he has is a stop to flush which is a credible piece of bird work. I have seen my fair share of negative judging in the past, but not many of those folks are left in the game around here these days.

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:27 pm

Interesting you should say that. I wasn't there as the dog was ahead of me of course. I was told she came around a corner at high speed and a bird on the path went up. She stopped but the judge felt she hadn't stop soon enough. That's the way it goes. :)
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by wfkgsps » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:58 pm

Sharon-
Pardon me for the hijack, but you guys/gals elaborate on your drive calls or whistles. I get the concept, but what do you use?

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by slistoe » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:05 pm

"She stopped but the judge felt she hadn't stopped soon enough."
I could easily live with that explanation. Tough break.

wfkgsps - from the time my dogs are 8 weeks old they are held up before they get let go. They are never just "free to go" all the time. When they are released they hear a two blast whistle. By the time they are 6 to 8 mos. of age they feel compelled to drive forward every time they hear the two blast whistle. A little Pavlovian conditioning. Of course, overuse can de-condition them in a hurry, so be judicious.

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:44 am

wfkgsps-

Every single time, from the time they are youngsters, I release a dog to take off in the field to run I hit the whistle with a staccato whistle pattern, sort of toot a toot a toot.... The dogs obviously come to associate that particular whistle pattern with moving out at high speed.

At a trial you want your dog to smoke the ground on the breakaway. Most of them will do just that because of all the pent up energy. The whistle signal becomes a part of that.

Druning a brace of a run anytime I want the dog to haul butt, I hit that particular whistle and they will drive forward.

I use a two blast whistle as a "come in" signal and they had better do that on the double also.

RayG

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:15 am

The staccato whistle is a come in whistle for my dogs. We could brace together real well :evil:

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Sharon
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:31 am

And there's exactly the problem with whistles as I've found it. Even worse when you have a whistle happy handler. Some say " No problem. My dog knows MY whistle" Hmmm. For that reason I only use the whistle for " move out at high speed". I use voice for everything else.
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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by Neil Mace » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:26 pm

I really think you need a 4-wheeler for proper patterning and conditioning.

You can get one of the used, smaller ones for less than $2,000. A 250 will fit in the back of a pick-up or on a small trailer, and will do all you need.

Roading bars are easy to make for two dogs,

And as Doug said, don't run at the dog, just go off at 45 degrees.

Oh, sounded like a stop to flush to me, unless the dog is in hot pursuit, good judges will leave them down and see. And after two finds, what more did they need to see?

Neil

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Re: Help from Trialers please

Post by myerstenn » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:49 am

I wouldnt do anything but road the dog during the week to keep him in condition. Do your bird work as you have in the past.He will be more energized when he hits the ground at the trial. horse work would help solve the problem longer term. Scrap the the collar process!!!

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