Training for Duck Search

[webfoot1973]

Can someone give me some ideas on how to train for the duck search in NAVHDA ? and what commands do you give.

[gonehuntin']

What have you trained the dog to do so far?

[webfoot1973]

Have all the basics down( sit, stay, come, whoa, heel) , retrieves to hand, working on backing now, rock solid on point......thats it so far

[crackerd]

If that's it so far, you definitely start off with the duck search definitely wanting the dog to definitely get in the water.

The command you use for sending it can be whatever you choose--so long as it differs from your release for a retrieve (typically for retrievers, the dog's name, but for versatiles, spaniels and pointing dogs, too often "Fetch!") and differs from "Back!" if you ever intend to train your dog to run true blind retrieves. Mine was simply "Search"--because I knew that *later* I would be training the dog as a nonslip retriever and thus putting to use all the drills leading to a blind retrieve. "Back!" is a command, not a release. "Search" or "Find it" or "Get the duck" can be either. For simplicity's sake, I would go with "Find it!" because it can come out of your mouth with emphasis and may help propel the dog into the water with some purpose.

MG

[Ruffshooter]

How old is this dog?
Has it ever seen ducks and knows they are in the water, under vegitation down stream.
Had the dog ever chased a duck.

Then all the retrieving stuff.

I start before the dog usually by (6 or eight months (making sure the dog is bigger and bolder than the duck)is ff with duck chases. The dog sees the wing taped or wing clipped duck thrown into the water and the dog is allowed to chase and catch the duck if he can. Building the dogs want to be in the water looking for the ducks even when not there.

After the dog is ff and reliable on retrieves and has marked retrieves on land and water and has had the gun introduced to same: I many times will put my, remote, Pheasant launchers (with a wing taped or clipped duck in it) out on Islands, hummocks logs etc. Set the dog up as I would on shore, make sure the dog is looking out in water towards the launcher; release the duck, fire and send the dog for the retrieve, hopefully the duck swims away and the dog has to start searching until it reaches the scent.

Some times folks use their canoe or kayak to help the dog to stay out there to help get the dog in the area of the duck. This can cause a dog to rely on the canoe to much. I have done it but try to limit my time out there. Even then I will only go out and just sit there and let the dog search, keeping quiet. (The dog needs to learn on its own.) (The dog needs independence).

This is what I do. Seems to work well.

Crackerd, Why do you not use your fetch command. This is in all reality, a retrieving drill. The purpose is for the dog to find a wounded duck that is swimming and can not see you to follow your direction. (I know it is to test the dogs independence to not give up on a wounded bird) (Not critising, just wondering what your thoughts are)

Thanks,
Rick

[crackerd]

Rick, first off, you did a nice job outlining the duck search for a beginning handler. Now, as to why not "fetch?"--the short answer is way back when, I was trained that the "Fetch!" command meant the dog must find something to put in its mouth, end of story. Then it became known that the duck search also has a subcategory of scoring for cooperation--probably don't have it worded exactly--but it required that a dog come off a duck search with the handler blowing the come-in whistle when the allotted time was called by the judges, whether the dog had retrieved the duck or not. My dogs would never give it up, because they had been trained that if sent for a cripple, there d*mned well was a cripple out there that they'd been sent for with "Fetch!" And using that command was contraindicative to the way fetch (FF) had been taught. Back then.

So, I started using "Search." And a judge from Wisconsin, where they have a lot of "searchable" water, told me at a UT once that my dog coming off a duck 350-400 yards out in the water when it heard the whistle was one of the wickedest feats he'd seen. (And he could see the dog coming off the duck, because the dog was white and really stood out against the water.) Anyhow, had to agree with him and the dog's coming back on a straight line...well, next thing I knew, it was all retrievers for me, as they're the dogs that really respond to the whistle, and run and swim so straight, meaning all the training since must've been a snap, right?

MG

[crackerd]

This is in all reality, a retrieving drill. The purpose is for the dog to find a wounded duck...

You (we) would like to think so. The reality is, many (most?) handlers who're testing don't want their dog getting anywhere near the duck during the search, as they're then also judged on the retrieve. And if I told you the versatiles I've seen that either blinked or wouldn't pick a duck...

MG

[gonehuntin']

This is in all reality, a retrieving drill. The purpose is for the dog to find a wounded duck...

The reality is, many (most?) handlers who're testing don't want their dog getting anywhere near the duck during the search, as they're then also judged on the retrieve. And if I told you the versatiles I've seen that either blinked or wouldn't pick a duck...

MG

Heresy!! Have you no shame man??

[crackerd]

Get off my case or I'll send you a spinone to relaunch your pro training career with (you'd like it, they're very trainable). Meanwhile, post up a photo of at least one versatile that doesn't blink birds or refuse a retrieve, your NAVHDA-bound Draht. (I know you're caving, don't deny it; got to show 'em how the duck search really works.) And did your friend ever commit to getting a spaniel, field or otherwise?

MG

[gonehuntin']

I really like the launcher idea but that's not how I start them. I use the launchers for teaching longer blinds. I'll sit the dog down, command "Dead Bird", and when it's looking down my hand, pop the bird and command "Back". The dog will allready be running simple lines and performing three hand signals, right, left, and back.

I start them out by throwing a shackled duck in the cattails, bringing the pup in crosswind, and commanding "hunt". Then I'll move the duck across a very small pond in cattails and command "hunt", pointing at the tails. You get the picture. Simple extension.

Dogs love doing this and at first I make sure they're always successful. Later they'll be sent on the longer blinds using "dead bird, back".

I never use "fetch" as a command because if the dog goes for a bird and doesn't find it, it has just refused my fetch command.

I send the dog on it's name on marks.

[Ruffshooter]

Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you mean. Funny, I have a little French britt Stella that will blink grabbing the duck. I have not Ff her. Will do it this year. She will chase and search pretty hard but then she finds the duck catches right up to it and will "FOLLOW" the duck all over the pond full speed even with her nose on the duck. She is so close to getting ito but she for some reason doesn't.

I do release my dogs on their name for actual retrieves.

[gonehuntin']

Get off my case or I'll send you a spinone to relaunch your pro training career with (you'd like it, they're very trainable). Meanwhile, post up a photo of at least one versatile that doesn't blink birds or refuse a retrieve, your NAVHDA-bound Draht. (I know you're caving, don't deny it; got to show 'em how the duck search really works.) And did your friend ever commit to getting a spaniel, field or otherwise?

MG

They got field spaniel. Joe wanted the Boykin, his wife the odd one. You get the picture. It was the weekend, so using her feminine wiles, the wife got her spaniel and poor Joe just got screwed.