HELP! Our Vizsla won't hunt!

nev · Post by **nev** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:04 pm

We just got a 2 yr. old male vizsla from a family who said they had hunted pheasant with him... Obviously not true. He has no interest in hunting, doesn't get excited over birds (we've tried training him with a dead one we have) and won't even get get them in a game of fetch. Same with his retrieving dummy. Any ideas? We don't want to have to get rid of him just because his past owners didn't train him properly... Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:45 pm

Could you discuss how you guys are working on wild birds/hunting?

Don't worry about dummy's and dead birds, that's not a very good indicator of prey drive at all.

Deep breaths!!!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:52 pm

I know many dogs that hunt well that have no interest in a dead bird specially in a training situation
do you want them to hunt a dead bird or a live one

I agree ..i wouldn't judge anything on an older dog with a dead bird and the back yard

I have dogs that will retrieve fresh shot birds all day long but toss a frozen dead one they just look at you

go get some live birds maybe a local preserve or birddog club and judge from there

nev · Post by **nev** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:37 pm

He was out pheasant hunting yesterday at a local preserve and had no luck there either. He chased one for a while but lost interest in it after a short time, and the only thing he found to point at was a 3d archery target of a turkey... On top of it all, he's gunshy to shotguns! (He's been around .22's and has not gotten riled up.) We know it's not his fault he was brought up dumb, we're just at a loss with what to do with the poor little guy!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:58 pm

There isn't much any of can do from a distance but in all honesty I have the impression you are not giving the dog a fair shot. I would very strongly suggest you find someone with some experience with bird dogs and let them analyze your dog and see what they recommend. At this point, I will bet the dog can be saved.

JMO

Ezzy

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:10 pm

How long did you give him to adjust before you took him out hunting?

If he's still adjusting to new surroundings and you took him hunting before he had a fair chance to adjust, that could be the problem.

Lantz

birdhunter2424 · Post by **birdhunter2424** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:09 pm

I agree with the direction that everyone else is going. IMO you need to get to a trainer for an eval. You havn't said anything that stands out to me as a deal breaker. My pup doesn't have any interest in frozen birds either, she carries them around by there toes. Take your time i think your dog will be fine.

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:00 pm

Someone mentioned it but, not the time to take the dog hunting.

I think if you really want to give him a good chance, go back to the beginning. Introduce him to birds in a real controlled setting (not hunting). I like the George Hickox way of introducing birds, I think pigeons would be the best. Get him excited about them, let him play a little bit, let him chase and see if you can trigger that instinct.

Start introducing the guns with a starter pistol when he is chasing birds. Not the first time he chases birds but after he is already excited about them. And slowly progress up to larger gauges.

Good luck,
Brandon

nev · Post by **nev** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:14 pm

Thank you all for your responses. We are going to try some wing-clipped pigeons and see how he does.

Unfortunately, we're thinking his problem comes from more than just a lack of interest in hunting as an exercise, but from a lack of interest in birds and training in general. He is unresponsive to any birds in the yard, throwing dummies, etc. and had no interest in birds at all while on the hunt.

We're at a loss on how to motivate a dog that shows no excitement from these things. Even the scent of a freshly killed pheasant doesn't get him revved up. We've had bird dogs before and have never seen anything like this. I'm just enamored by the little guy and would hate to see his breed's potential go to waste!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:14 am

seriously I would seek some help

how the dog is approached and handled will make all the difference in if the dog will come around or not

it has to be handled in ways the get the dog excited and it maybe the slightest little things you need to be alert for as to when to stop on those good notes which will bring the dog around

where are you located

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:45 am

You say hes gunshy how would you know if he didn't find any birds on the hunt?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:23 am

IF you got the dog as a hunting dog, don't waste any more time on him, give him away as a pet. If you put him with a trainer for a couple of months, you could easily just buy a new pup and start from scratch with a dog with no problems. Now you have a dog that apparently doesn't like birds and is somewhat gunshy. Get rid of it before you become attached.

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:04 am

A good thing to remember, it's okay to sound like a fool when getting your dog exited. If you say " fetch" and he already has a lack of interest, that isn't gonna get him exited at all. But if you tease him with the bird, toss the bird around, and lightly clap for him when he chases it. Even roll on the ground... then you might get a dog ready to have fun. Dogs are very responsive to their owners and if he gets the sence that you are frustrated and have no desire to be with him, then that's what he'll give back to you.

You gotta make training fun, especially for the youngsters.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:27 am

NEV,
What state do you live in?

OHIO VIZSLA · Post by **OHIO VIZSLA** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:00 pm

Just wondering do you know who the parents/grandparents of the dog are? Were they field dog lines/show lines?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:43 pm

Nev -

You already got the two best pieces of advice you could get.

First is to get a pro trainer to look at the dog and see if there is anything in there between the ears that says "hunt" to the dog. You obviously do not have the necessary skill or experience to make that determination yourself, so, find someone who does. Most pros I know will give you an hour or two of their time for free or very reasonably... because they are in it, not to make a fortune, but because they really enjoy what they do and want others to enjoy as well.

In all honesty, there may not be enough hunting desire in the dog to warrant messing with it. Some lines and even some breeds of dogs, even though they are "sporting dogs", have been bred for looks and their hunting instincts have ben largely lost. Pretty but useless.

The second piece of advice was...if the dog ain't gonna be the kind of dog you need, cut your losses and move on. Don't wait to fall in love with a cull. The good ones leave us waaaay too fast, the lousy ones seem to go on forever.

RayG

nev · Post by **nev** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:35 pm

Thanks again for everyone's advice!

In response to some questions posed, we live in Minnesota. We don't know his bloodlines, but he came with papers from a breeder in Iowa, the family we got him from said they paid $800 for him as a pup, which seems like a high cost, so we're guessing bloodlines are good, whatever they are. We found he was gunshy because though he didn't find any birds, some flew up on their own, which were gunned down. It was then that our little boy got startled. It may have been because he didn't do anything to warrant the blast and did not know it was coming. As I said previously, we're not 100% that he is gunshy, as he's fine around smaller blasts. The shotgun likely just startled him because he wasn't ready for it.

We're working on getting some pigeons for him to play with, hopefully get some excitement into his life, and we'll start doing research on some area trainers to take a look at him. On the plus side, he's doing much better with his e-collar. The on-point locator beep used to scare him until we started leaving it on next to his kennel during the portion of the day we're away. We're hoping that he just needs some adjusting to the situation as a whole, and will come around soon.

I'll post back with updates as to whether he starts gaining ground or simply maintains his happy status as "pet."

Thank you all so much for your advice. The wealth of knowledge on this site is amazing— SO glad I stumbled upon it!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Sounds like there was just to much done to fast viz's are knowing to be softer so new home new people new this new that
bird shot but not pointed so there was blasts for no reason that the dog knew of
confusion has set in

so back up and take smaller steps

here is some contact people in the mid north area though this is national shoot to retrieve maybe they someone can get you hooked up with some people near you
http://www.nstra.org/midnorth.htm call the president or even call some of the numbers of people hosting trials

Good luck

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:27 am

You'd be well off getting some time with a pro trainer.

In reading your posts, I can see one serious item of concern but I can see at least two serious errors that you've made.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:20 am

For what it is worth, I agree with gonehunting and Ray Gubernat. I pesonally would not waste any more time with this dog unless you want him for a pet.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:49 am

For what it is worth, I agree with gonehunting and Ray Gubernat. I pesonally would not waste any more time with this dog unless you want him for a pet.

I contacted Nev privately and gave her some homework. You have to look at the big picture. Here is a dog that is new to the owners, hasn`t settled into the pack yet and is severly confused, and my guess is, that the dog was confused before Nev ever seen it. As mentioned there were many mistakes with this dog. But depending on the dog it could still be salvageable.
Without seeing bloodlines and knowing the true story behind this dog I am only taking potshots. But I told her the first thing to do is put away the guns and birds and get the dog into the fields and learn to run and have fun. Use another dog if necessary, but we want to see a happy dog out running. If the dog will not respond to this and just isn`t having any fun and is still spooky I may suggest putting it on the shelf.
I have had too fix too many dogs like this. I am currently working on a GWP that is almost identical to this V. Confused to the high heaven, bird shy and gun sensitive. After 10 days of learning it is OK to go out and hunt, and I am not going to reprimand him. He is having fun and his tail is starting to come out from his scrotum. He can now go out and run and find a quail. He is starting to point with confidence and I flush the bird and he gets to chase after it. If it is a weak flyer I let him go retrieve it. No gun fire just fun. I know he will be a usable dog for the owner in the end. Sometimes all it takes is patience and a game plan.

For all of you younger trainers or new dog owners. Please find a trainer to watch over your shoulder so you don`t mess the dog up. Seems like nobody can afford a trainer and they can do it themselves. Then once the dog is screwed up they suddenly have the money to get the dog fixed. Problem is, it is going to cost twice as much and it is a roll of the dice as to weather or not the dog can be turned around. Avoiding stupid mistakes and having a plan will give you a much more confident dog with less confusion. Start`em off right and it is fun for you and the dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:33 am

birddogger wrote:For what it is worth, I agree with gonehunting and Ray Gubernat. I pesonally would not waste any more time with this dog unless you want him for a pet.

Birddogger -

That really ain't what I said. I strongly suggested that the dog's owner get themselves to a pro to have the dog evaluated. I would hope they could find someone with experience in training this kind of dog.

THEN, if the dog is one of those with weak hunting instincts...yes...unfortunately there are some sporting dogs that just do not have the requisite hunting desire... they need to decide whether they want a pet that won't be much good as a hunter or a hunting dog that wil also be a good pet.

I would want the owner to give the dog every chance to be what it can be.

RayG

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:26 pm

Sorry Ray, I guess I misunderstood or didn't read your post close enough. I am sure you are correct that the dog deserves a chance. I was only thinking that if I were in that situation, I probably would not have the patience. The part about the dog being gun sensitive really would have done it for me. But I am by no means a proffesional or any sort of expert. Just thinking of experiences I have had with my own dogs over the years.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:30 pm

BTW, vman, your last comments were probably not directed toward me, but just to be clear, I am not a young guy or new to training bird dogs. I was just giving my opinion without knowing the entire situation or seeing the dog. I wish nev and the new dog the best and hope it works out.

Charlie

Vman wrote:
For what it is worth, I agree with gonehunting and Ray Gubernat. I pesonally would not waste any more time with this dog unless you want him for a pet.
I contacted Nev privately and gave her some homework. You have to look at the big picture. Here is a dog that is new to the owners, hasn`t settled into the pack yet and is severly confused, and my guess is, that the dog was confused before Nev ever seen it. As mentioned there were many mistakes with this dog. But depending on the dog it could still be salvageable.
Without seeing bloodlines and knowing the true story behind this dog I am only taking potshots. But I told her the first thing to do is put away the guns and birds and get the dog into the fields and learn to run and have fun. Use another dog if necessary, but we want to see a happy dog out running. If the dog will not respond to this and just isn`t having any fun and is still spooky I may suggest putting it on the shelf.
I have had too fix too many dogs like this. I am currently working on a GWP that is almost identical to this V. Confused to the high heaven, bird shy and gun sensitive. After 10 days of learning it is OK to go out and hunt, and I am not going to reprimand him. He is having fun and his tail is starting to come out from his scrotum. He can now go out and run and find a quail. He is starting to point with confidence and I flush the bird and he gets to chase after it. If it is a weak flyer I let him go retrieve it. No gun fire just fun. I know he will be a usable dog for the owner in the end. Sometimes all it takes is patience and a game plan.

For all of you younger trainers or new dog owners. Please find a trainer to watch over your shoulder so you don`t mess the dog up. Seems like nobody can afford a trainer and they can do it themselves. Then once the dog is screwed up they suddenly have the money to get the dog fixed. Problem is, it is going to cost twice as much and it is a roll of the dice as to weather or not the dog can be turned around. Avoiding stupid mistakes and having a plan will give you a much more confident dog with less confusion. Start`em off right and it is fun for you and the dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:32 pm

Birddogger -

No big deal.

Patience is a virtue that I never seem to have enough of myself.

I have not been around all that many V's but the few I have had experience with have been rather sensitive dogs, by my standards.

That is why I seconded the suggestion to get a pro opinion. A good pro can tell more about what's in a dog's head in a couple of hours of observation than I can in a week. They can also offer advice on how to proceed.

RayG

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:59 pm

Ditto!

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:02 pm

BTW, vman, your last comments were probably not directed toward me, but just to be clear, I am not a young guy or new to training bird dogs. I was just giving my opinion without knowing the entire situation or seeing the dog. I wish nev and the new dog the best and hope it works out.
Charlie

Charlie I was not directing it towards anyone that posted. It was directed towards those that are new and really don`t know any better. Someone screwed this dog up and it wasn`t on purpose. The problem I have is I see this too much, and it is not necessary. 9 out of 10 dogs that I see messed up, got messed up at a game farm at a young age.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:14 pm

Thanks vman,
Charlie

jt807 · Post by **jt807** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:08 pm

They have been bred for too long to match the couch instead of to hunt. Mayber you can get a gsp, they are almost exclusively bred to hunt.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:36 am

They have been bred for too long to match the couch instead of to hunt. Mayber you can get a gsp, they are almost exclusively bred to hunt.

A GSP can, and do get screwed up by inexperienced owners just like the rest of them. If you don`t beleive me give me your number and you can come visit me when I am trying to straighten one out. I usually have about one a month.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:39 am

Vman wrote:
They have been bred for too long to match the couch instead of to hunt. Mayber you can get a gsp, they are almost exclusively bred to hunt.
A GSP can, and do get screwed up by inexperienced owners just like the rest of them. If you don`t beleive me give me your number and you can come visit me when I am trying to straighten one out. I usually have about one a month.

Gsp's are one of the biggest classes in the sporting dog group at most shows. Not up to date in the last year or two but back when I was actively showing 30 years ago they were too. But most of the show dogs in the sporting group still hunt except for a couple of breeds maybe. They just don't run and range like the field bred dogs. I do think you can get some viszlas that haven't been used in the field for a lot of generations that can be shakey but even those normally will show the instinct and some ability.

Many of the show dogs will work well for the walking hunter who likes a slower closer working dog.

Ezzy

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:14 am

Start over..Find a good home for your dog and contact a reputable trainer if you want a started dog...Atleast one that has been introduced to birds and the gun. These dogs are part of our lives for many years and it can create many years of frustration having a dog that will not give you pleasure in the field as well as in the home. The $$$ you pay for a "started" dog will more than pay of itself in the long run...you don't need a "finished" dog...But one you are confident will point birds and be shot over..Look at the dog and work with it at the trainers before you bring it home. Had a dog once...beautiful animal...would not point a bird for anything..Sent it to a well known trainer I trusted and he agreed..a waste of time..Gave it to a family with two childrern...the family loved him, gave him a great life and he lived with that family about another 11 years before passing away...Hope this helps

nev · Post by **nev** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:45 am

Well we've been working with Dusty for the past few weeks and I'm happy to say he's starting to show some interest. He gets very excited over his throwing dummy now, and is starting to point at a pheasant wing (using the good ol' fishing pole), so he's making progress. He has a little vizsla buddy that will be hunting this year so hopefully she can show him the ropes and get him topped off on excitement. Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far!

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:03 am

I'm glad to hear the update! Instilling confidence in a dog is one of the hardest, most drawn out things a trainer has to do at times. It takes patience, time, repetition and a tight-lipped observer. Ultimately, you have to give the dog opportunity after opportunity to figure it out on his own - it's not something you can really "train". It sounds like Dusty is flipping the switch.

dmadis8 · Post by **dmadis8** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:54 pm

nev wrote:Well we've been working with Dusty for the past few weeks and I'm happy to say he's starting to show some interest. He gets very excited over his throwing dummy now, and is starting to point at a pheasant wing (using the good ol' fishing pole), so he's making progress. He has a little vizsla buddy that will be hunting this year so hopefully she can show him the ropes and get him topped off on excitement. Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far!

I have seen that a little competition with dogs like this really helps out a lot. My golden had no clue what was going on when hunting by himself, but when I ran him with another dog for a few days he learned quick that if he wanted to pick up birds he had to find them first.

nev · Post by **nev** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:48 pm

Dusty gets VERY competitive. My fiance's parents have a 6 mo. old vizsla and the two of them go NUTS when playing chase or fetching. She's a little quicker to point at things, so hopefully her advantage will pay off in giving Dusty the kick in the pants he needs to get excited! We shall see. I think he's going to a game farm this weekend to run around. I'll keep you all updated!

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