Training Time Table

[Deez]

Howdy everyone. I am new to the forum and a first time gun dog owner. I am looking for a little expertise on a training time table. My dog is a German Short Hair and I picked her up when she was 10 weeks old. She is now 16 weeks old and on her 4th week of a 6 week puppy obedience class. She is picking everything up beautifully. She already retrieved when I picked her up from the breeder so that was pretty nice. Also, she seems to be going thru some kind of fear stage where she is afraid of stuff she wasnt afraid of before, but seems to be coming out of it. Will some one give me a general idea on when I can start doing the following things:

Intro to E Collar
Into to birds
Intro to guns

And if anyone else in the Sioux Falls area knows of where to pick up some training birds that are legal to shoot year round ( I am assuming its only going to pigeons since there is a season on every kind of game bird here.)

Thanks in advance.

[gonehuntin']

I have never seen a flow chart for pointing dogs, except mine. For dogs that aren't going on to waterfowl work, you would eliminate the final section. Realize also that I don't field trial dog, but for hunting and NAVHDA dogs, this is a good guide. This should get some fur flying.

Please realize that all dogs are different and these time tables can vary by a month of so.

PLAN YOU TRAINING THEN TRAIN YOUR PLAN.
FLOW CHART
HOUSEBREAK
TEACH “NO”.
TEACH “KENNEL”.
VERY HEAVY SOCIALIZATION.
“STOP” AT FOOD DISH.
“STOP” AT DOOR.
CHECK CORD CROSSWIND INTO LAUNCHERS.
WORK ON DIRECTION CHANGE TO WHISTLE. 8WKS.- 6 MO.
RETRIEVE MANY CLIP WINGS AND DEAD BIRDS.
TONS OF HAPPY TIMING.
INTRODUCE COVERS
INTRODUCE WATER.
ALL FUN, NO PRESSURE.

DOG WEAR ELECTRIC COLLAR CONTINUOUSLY.
CONTINUE CHECK CORD INTO LAUNCHERS.
TEACH “STOP” IN YARD.
START STEADY TO INCIDENTAL FLUSH IN YARD.
TEACH STEADY TO FALL IN YARD.
BEGIN TRACKING FUR AND FEATHER.
INTRODUCE GUN.
CONTINUE WHISTLE DIRECTION CHANGE. 6 MO.-8-10 MO.
KEEP PUP IN A LOT OF BIRDS.
USE A SIMPLE RETRIEVE AS A TASK REWARD.
BEGIN OBEDIENCE, HERE AND STOP ONLY.
KEEP RETRIEVING IN YARD.
KEEP INTODUCIONS IN WATER.
WORK VARRIED COVERS.
TONS OF HAPPY TIMING.
WE ARE STILL EXERTING NO PRESSURE ON PUP.

TEACH “HEEL” ON CHECK CORD USING HEELING STICK.
TEACH “STOP” ON CHECK CORD USING PRESSURE.
“STOP” TO WHISTLE.
CONTINUE WORK ON STEADINESS TO INCIDENTAL FLUSH.
BEGIN FORCE FETCH, HOLD, FETCH, DROP. 8-10 MO.- 12 MO.
BEGIN STEADY TO FLUSH ON CC.
PROGRESS TO WALKING FETCH.
BREAK THROUGH DECOYS DURING WALKING FETCH.
NOW OVERLAY THE COLLAR ON ALL COMMANDS.

DIRECTIONAL CHANGE TO WHISTLE OFF CC.
TEACH SIT.
TEACH DOWN.
FORCE TO PILE.
TONS OF HAPPY TIMING.
FORCE ON BIRDS. 12 MO.-18 M0.
STEADY TO INCIDENTAL FLUSH WITH COLLAR.
STEADY TO FLUSH, SHOT, FALL WITH COLLAR.
TRANSITION TO “BACK” WITH COLLAR.
INTRODUCE DUCK AND PHEASANT.
BEGIN THREE LINE, LINING DRILL.
BEGIN BASEBALL.
BACKING WITH COLLAR.
HUNT “DEAD”, DUCK AND PHEASANT SEARCH.

NOW THE DOG WILL BEGIN ADVANCED TRAINING.
SINGLE T.
DOUBLE T. 18 MONTHS ON
WALKING BASEBALL.
WATER FORCE.
WATER HANDLING.
ALL FINISHING WORK WANTED.

I have used this chart for pointing dogs since 1983.

[Sharon]

Where were you 15 years ago when i needed this?

I just printed it off for the next dog.

[Deez]

That is exactly what I have been looking for!!! I really appreciate it!!!

[snips]

I do not do much but socialize good and some basic come, and intro to birds. Let them be a pup and have fun!

[vzkennels]

I'm with Brenda on this one especially at that young of an age.I don't want to build a ROBOT.

[kninebirddog]

Pups do go trough a couple fear stages it is very important during these times that you do not coddle or make an issue on way or another about it just move on and act like all is normal

as for time lines..personally I let the pup indicate to me what they are really ready for

i do small puppy pre foundation games which helps set up for real training in the future

i find when you try and put a real time line to things it is the first step to setting a dog up for failure when they do not fall in the plan
or someone thinking a puppy is ready for something when they really aren't

pups go through great stages then there are those days where it is like someone flipped a switch and traded you dogs

you can't expect a second grader to do high school work even though the second grader may appear smarter then a high schooler it is a quick way to expect to much

keep things simple and quit on good notes...it is just as improtant for you as it is for the dog to stop on those good notes
never put a stop watch on training it takes what it takes

[R-Middleton]

Time tables are the main reason that I don't like some training books. Puppies advancement very greatly, and if you start a new stage before the pup is ready, you will have a wreck, or at least a pup that doesn't become nearly the dog that he could have under different training methods. Teaching a pup all the things listed above is fine if the timing is right for the pup.

Good Luck

Ray

[Deez]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have been trying to keep it simple for her. Our daily routine involves 3 or 4 sessions obedience training for 15 minutes followed by another 15-30 minutes of playing around, playing fetch in the yard or a walk to the park. I have also been working on socialization. The breeder had his puppys spend a lot of time with his kids . She has also met another 15 or so dogs in the past few weeks from puppy classes and friends and familys dogs. She has no aggression towards anything. She seems to be coming out of her fear stage a little, but whenever she acts scared I usually wont look at her or give her any attention and I approach whatever she is afraid standing tall, trying to show her its nothing to be afraid of. I mainly wanted a time table so I didnt try to introduce her to to many things to quickly.

[kninebirddog]

i think the most important thing

it is NOt about the Quantity of time
it is about the Quality of time

My session depending on what we are doing i ahve a small goal and I try to get as close to it as possible on a good note
if it takes a minute then I am done in a minute if it takes 5 minutes to get have way their and the pup understanding and through a fit or a bulk to get the small step so be it that is what it takes

Always end on a good note with a dog and you with the "I got it good feeling" stop go for a sit down time and allow the pup to reflect

always in fun quit the pup before they quit you

So toss the timex and let the clock be the pup attention span and work with in it or through it depending on what they excersise is

[Sharon]

I'm quite sure GoneHuntin' assumed folks knew that you go at the pup's pace, but if you don't have a vision for where you're going, you're not going to get there.

Trainers with limited experience need some kind of a game plan.

I teach school and I have a plan for the year for my grade. I realize that some will boom ahead and others will need more time and others will even need a modified programme. That doesn't mean a plan isn't essential.

[Sharon]

I'm with Brenda on this one especially at that young of an age.I don't want to build a ROBOT.

. Does a training plan produce a robot? When you raise a child , you want to raise an independent thinker who can handle any situation. I think this is what i want from my dogs too. However, both child and dog reach this goal by a consistent training plan , until they are mature enough to be independent.

[vzkennels]

I have seen dogs that were more like robots then hunting dogs.They look at the handler,trainer for every move they make,that's not what I want.To much obedience training at a young age creates alot of this.Not what I want from my dog.If you take a child & bore them to death with the same ole routine day after day they never reach their full capabilities especially the smarter ones.Let them grow on their own & learn from their mistakes & guide them in the right direction.I like to let my dogs develop as natural as possible & then teach them manors in fact when we had wild birds I did very little training just more or less went hunting.The birds did the training & the dogs learned from them.

[coryf]

Deez,

If you feel like sharing the pedigree and kennel you got your pup from I'd be interested......pm me. I'm 110 miles west of Sioux Falls. If you need help let me know and I will try to answer your questions or refer you to someone for first hand help.

I use pigeons, quail and chukar for training. Primarily pigeons for a young pup. I have a 21 wk old pup that's had bird and gun intro and I have just started killing a few pigeons for him out of launchers. He wears a deactivated ecollar when in the bird field now. There are several things you can do to help your pup no matter how young such as crate training and starting to develop a point of contact on the neck and many more things that will make future training go much easier.

Does the breeder of your pup subscribe to any specific training program?

Cory

[WildRose]

I don't believe in time tables. Dogs are individuals and develop at different rates. Most of my dogs will never have a check cord on them at all until they are around 18 months old. Most (barring problems) will never have an e collar put on them at all until they are two or more.

At the age of your pup all I do is lots of free running with them just allowing them to explore the world. We also work on "here". Other than that, playing fetch a little bit now and again is about it.

I'll also let them work on wild birds or johnny house birds that are wild enough they can't catch them.

When they start pointing on their own we'll introduce them to the gun, and then kill some birds for them.

Most of my dogs we'll be killing birds over in this manner by the time they are four months old.

The more naturally they are allowed to develop the better the finished product will be.

The biggest problem I seen in dogs brought to me to be "fixed" is that they have had way too much structure and obedience way too early. It's just natural for most people to want to overtrain early because they are just too excited about the new pup. Take your time and enjoy watching him grow and develop and then train him later when he's ready.

[WildRose]

I'm with Brenda on this one especially at that young of an age.I don't want to build a ROBOT.

. Does a training plan produce a robot? When you raise a child , you want to raise an independent thinker who can handle any situation. I think this is what i want from my dogs too. However, both child and dog reach this goal by a consistent training plan , until they are mature enough to be independent.

You don't expect the same level of obedience, maturity, or compliance from an 18mo child that you expect from a 20 year old either. You don't send your third grader through Army basic training either.

Too much structure, too much training, too much obedience squelches the drive and independance of a pup. A pointing dog without drive and independance is virtually useless.

[ezzy333]

I don't believe in time tables. Dogs are individuals and develop at different rates. Most of my dogs will never have a check cord on them at all until they are around 18 months old. Most (barring problems) will never have an e collar put on them at all until they are two or more.

At the age of your pup all I do is lots of free running with them just allowing them to explore the world. We also work on "here". Other than that, playing fetch a little bit now and again is about it.

I'll also let them work on wild birds or johnny house birds that are wild enough they can't catch them.

When they start pointing on their own we'll introduce them to the gun, and then kill some birds for them.

Most of my dogs we'll be killing birds over in this manner by the time they are four months old.

The more naturally they are allowed to develop the better the finished product will be.

The biggest problem I seen in dogs brought to me to be "fixed" is that they have had way too much structure and obedience way too early. It's just natural for most people to want to overtrain early because they are just too excited about the new pup. Take your time and enjoy watching him grow and develop and then train him later when he's ready.

This covers my method as well. I think the worse thing you can do as a beginner is have a time table for a pup. I am a firm believer that your purpose is to provide a place for the pup to learn. That does not mean teach or train it to do it. Our place is to provide the opportunity and to teach the manners that is required for the pup to live in your home or kennel and what you want the pup to do after it has found a bird. Get that done and you should have a great dog.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

WildRose: I agree with your post entirely. I don't think my post said anything different as far as philosophy goes.


I think we all agree , but our definition of the word "timetable" is not the same. ( Another example on this forum where we have 20 posts nit picking over the meaning of a word.
Of course I'm not putting pup on a timetable - dates by which a particular skill should be learned. I'm not using the word like a "High school timetable" - " at 10 a.m you should be here."

But in my mind I have a "plan" concerning where I'd like to end up some day. Gonehuntin's post gave an overview of that plan.

[kninebirddog]

that is the other thing which people have to keep in mind also ...what you have to work with

many people do not have access to johnny houses and great flying birds or a big supply of wild birds
here you need to really keep things fun for pups and take care as to how you do handle and how much you handle the pups

so how to appraoch

young pups you guide them to be the dog you want them to be
make it fun

and always better to go to slow then to fast

[gonehuntin']

I find that many new pointing dog owners are totally confused as to how they should develop a pup. When you are training a dog, nothing, and I mean nothing, is set in stone, you have to proceed at the dog's pace. BUT, you also need a PLAN on how you are to proceed with the pup's training. This is what most new owners don't have.

There is also a huge difference in how NAVHDA trainers (which is the program and venue I like) and other pointing dog trainers proceed and train. A friend of mine had the youngest VC ever at 2 1/2 years. If that dog had not had a cc or training done with him until he was 18 months, he'd have never achieved that level in that time.

Many pointing dog trainers are also behind the times with training methods for dogs today. By following a schedule like this, you will NOT make a ROBOT of a dog unless you choose to do so. With any program you follw, it requires common sense. These dogs are capable of so, so, much if we start them young and just give them a chance. Now, I profess to know nothing about creating a field trial pointing dog, and have NO interest in it. This is meant for the hunter and NAVHDA people. Really, when you look at it, it is probably the order all of you go in anyhow.

Here's the other thing. Every dog has a God given, built in range. It is very, very, difficult to alter it. Even if you put a dog through a very early program and it stays within 100 yards of you, as it ages it will increase or decrease it's range to what it's natural range is. Can you destroy that range? Absolutely through stupidity and brutality at a young age, the same as you can destroy a dog through those same two things teaching it anything from whoa to no.

The most important thing any new trainer can do is to first, have a solid training plan. Second, train your plan. The most successful trainers of animals anywhere, follow a training plan. The plan and sequence should always remain the same, the time line can differ. So, if you let a dog run wild for whatever reason until it's 18 months old, then begin training it, your training plan will be EXACTLY the same as starting that same pup at 8-10 months. The sequence is always the same, the time line can vary.

Don't everyone get your panties in a bunch. This is strictly and easy to understand guide line for training, nothing more and nothing less. Be it Hickox, Dobbs, The Smiths, or Hahn, they all follow a sequence.

[jgf@gratiot]

sort of scary to think what would happen to an 18 month old dog with no ecollar. Mine see it the first time they get a head on them and run by without even looking when I give a hollar, seems all reach this point sooner or later around 6 months. At this point they have decided they are there for them and not me. Don't need to be a robot but sure as heck better look up when I say there name be it 6 months or 16 months and procede to get to the front and go with me. Always nice to see a pup point some birds, but it happens when it happens. Depends on your training style also. I know some who do one way, let pups run all over the country and point/rip do whatever they will on wild birds, let em learn on their own. Also know one of the most successful trialers out east with grouse dogs who keeps his pups about 30 yards away and just trys to put down every bird that dog points for it be it a flash point or a stand of 10 minutes, until they are right on game then let them start to run.

[phildowner]

PLAN YOU TRAINING THEN TRAIN YOUR PLAN.
FLOW CHART
HOUSEBREAK
TEACH “NO”.
TEACH “KENNEL”.
VERY HEAVY SOCIALIZATION.
“STOP” AT FOOD DISH.
“STOP” AT DOOR.
CHECK CORD CROSSWIND INTO LAUNCHERS.
WORK ON DIRECTION CHANGE TO WHISTLE. 8WKS.- 6 MO.
RETRIEVE MANY CLIP WINGS AND DEAD BIRDS.
TONS OF HAPPY TIMING.
INTRODUCE COVERS
INTRODUCE WATER.
ALL FUN, NO PRESSURE.

Hi GoneHuntin,

Thanks for your response in my other thread about bird dog training. I have a couple of questions about your flowchart that I'm hoping you can elaborate on for this newbie.

By Very Heavy Socialization, I assume that you mean around other dogs. Any general tips here?

Can you also tell me about using a check cord crosswind into launchers? Do you mean to tether the dog at a long distance? What is the training purpose of a launcher?

Lastly, any quick advice on starting Bailey with a whistle?

***

I've ordered a few different training DVDs and books for retrievers, and it's likely that many of my questions will be answered then. I hope that my absolute lack-of-knowledge on these isn't off-putting.

[Sharon]

Heavy socialization means giving the dog contact with all of the many things he will meet in life:

other dogs
children
cats
horse trailers
horses
loud noises - trucks, sires , snowblowers , smoke alarms, thunder etc
people of different color

and anything else you can think of. When pup is young he is mentally able to accept these things. When he is older unknown noises etc. can be a problem that's hard to fix.

[WildRose]

Heavy socialization means giving the dog contact with all of the many things he will meet in life:

other dogs
children
cats
horse trailers
horses
loud noises - trucks, sires , snowblowers , smoke alarms, thunder etc
people of different color

and anything else you can think of. When pup is young he is mental able to accept these things. When he is older unknown noises etc. can be a problem that's hard to fix.

I absolutely agree. The more opportunities puppies get to explore and experience the world early on the better prepared they are to deal with life.

Hank (the big guy) is about 5yrs old and 1200lbs. The puppies are about ten weeks old.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

The NAVHDA training program should have a WARNING LABEL attached...........This should be used by control freaks only!

I agree with all who say let the pup be a pup.

[gonehuntin']

Sharon and Wildrose have stated exactly what I meant. You can't give a young dog or pup too much love and you can't over expose him to different environmental conditions as long as it's done in a safe manor. Show him tons of love, take him for long runs, and let him be a pup. TEACH HIM WHAT NO MEANS.

[gonehuntin']

The NAVHDA training program should have a WARNING LABEL attached...........This should be used by control freaks only!

I agree with all who say let the pup be a pup.

It's obvious you haven't been around really well trained dogs.

[Benny]

The NAVHDA training program should have a WARNING LABEL attached...........This should be used by control freaks only!

I agree with all who say let the pup be a pup.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If I'm no control freak, but I do want to build the best abilities out of my dog. A young pup, sure...but eventually training has to begin. If I wanted a wild hunting dog, I would buy a coyote or a wolf.

[Sharon]

The NAVHDA training program should have a WARNING LABEL attached...........This should be used by control freaks only!

I agree with all who say let the pup be a pup.

What a outlandish statement. :roll: