AT WITTS END.....Potty training

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:44 am

I have just about had it with this 12 week old GSP and potty training - we have had her since 7 weeks of age.

Some days she will let us know when she has to go out, then it seems that she will drop and piss/crap anytime in the house and sometimes even when she was just out. Just 2 min ago she pissed on my sons jacket that he left on the floor.

I have never had a dog take this long to house train. I have tried treats after we come back inside and within 1-2 seconds of her going outside and she just isnt getting it.

Anyone have a sure thing to get this animal house trained so the wife won't shoot her in the next few days (wife is getting a little wound up about it)?
Just had to vent, but would like some ideas if you have any.
Thanks

StinkyPete · Post by **StinkyPete** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:43 am

Are you using a crate?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:50 am

At three months, she's still a baby and doesn't have full control of her muscles. Keep her in a crate when unsupervised. When she is out, keep her confined to one small area of the house WHERE YOU ARE and can keep an eye on her. When you see her start to squat yell NO, OUTSIDE!! and immediately pick her up roughly and plunk her outside saying OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE!! Praise the heck out of her when she goes outside. Some take longer than others. Patience Grasshopper.

BellaDad · Post by **BellaDad** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:15 am

I got mine house trained pretty quick by taking her out every 30 min while I was home. Took her through the same door to the same spot. She picked it up pretty quick.

Related question, sorry to hijack the post. I just got our almost 7mo GSP female fixed. Since then she goes to the door and whines that she has to go out. I take her out and she goes. 15 or 20 min later same thing. She doesnt' go in the house which is good but is frequent urination common within a week or two of getting a female fixed?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:43 am

It seems to be and sometimes it lasts for much of their lives. Not sure why. Seems to show up more with early neutering but I have no source to back that up so maybe someone will have had a difference experience.

Ezzy

birdhunter2424 · Post by **birdhunter2424** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:17 am

This is what I did with my GSP it may work for you. I hung bells from the back door at her level. Every time I opened the door to let her out I rang the bells. After 2 days of doing this she started ringing the bells on her own. Now the annoying part comes. She will start to ring the bells very often, but every time she rings the bells YOU MUST LET HER OUT. If you keep this up with out fail it will work. The best thing is when you aren't watching her closely and you cant tell when she is sitting nice at the door, you will be able to hear her ring the bells.

eastwash · Post by **eastwash** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:35 am

Crate training.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:37 am

I have thought about the bell trick and will probably try it now.
Tha crate - well is hard to do for us as I work nights and thw wife is days and we have my wifes mother living with us.....we have issues with some tolerating the barking so the crate only gets used as a convienience when the pup is raising heck when it shouldn't.
Anyway we will keep trying.

A side note she retrieves great !!!

John

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:50 am

I use a crate as their house or security spot. When they ar elet out the first thing you do is take them outside till they do their thing and then they come back in and we play. When either of us get tired the pup goes back in the crate for a nap. And the cycle starts over. Have never used a crate as a punishment and have never had a problem with them barking because of it. Sure makes housebreaking simple and almost bullet proof.

Ezzy

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:46 pm

I just made and hung a dog collar bell on the door knob so we will see how it goes.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:23 pm

The pup we have now, lives a bit of a dual life with 2/3 of his time with us and 1/3 with his actual owners. We are basically like boarding school or day care with boarding I guess. In many way it has been a great way to raise a pup, as I had a break from the up at nights to go out for 3 days then I was missing him and ready to have him back again. He has the going when outside down and knows not to go inside, but still doesn't ask as I would like. We have used the bell thing this time and yesterday was the first time he rang the bells himself. He is 5 1/2 months old already. But as long as we are attentive he gets out in time. But I bring this up because I have crate trained over 15 plus puppies in my life and this was the first and only one that was really difficult to get to accept the crate. Partly you must remember he probably has issues with a lack of consistancy, BUT we do try and stay consistent in how we handle things. But when he came home from the breeder he absolutely SCREAMED if he was crated or kenneled. For a long time until he tired himself out and then he'd sleep. I was always attentive and opened the door and praised him only AFTER he was quiet and only tried to crate him when he was very tired. He would work himself into an absolute fit. So I took to crating him in the utility room, still trying to let him him out if he was quiet. He did learn to GET quiet when I approached the door and wait. I made him wait for long enough to be sure that he knew what he had to do to get out. But try as I might I could not get him to quit the first 20 minutes of screaming at the top of his lungs. I don't know if this was due to his large litter size or maybe he never had a chance to be alone ever and just did not know how to be alone before the trauma of new family, but he was tough with that. And then he tried to chew through the wire door and got his lower jaw stuck. We heard his screaming change to a different sound and decided to check thank goodness so he was not stuck for long but then you can imagine the crate was a REAL scary thing. So I had to go back to square one. 1) get him a dog blanket that he slept on every time he napped. Then I took the crate apart and put the blanket near the base only, then in it without the tpo or door, then put the tpo on with no door, then the door on but open and finally he started to always go to that spot to sleep. But during that long process we could not use the crate to keep him contained for housetraining. So I used a trick that an old retriever trainer swore by. I kept him on a 6 foot lead dragging or held or clipped to me... and so every time he tried to potty I caught him in the act... There is of course a downfall in that there is huge inconvenience when I say have to go to the bathroom myself or am baking etc, and if you do it too long there can be an impact on independence. I was taught that you MUST counter it with outdoor free play completely off lead with big long romps every single day... easy to do on our place... not so easy if you live in a neighborhood.

NeBrittany · Post by **NeBrittany** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:20 pm

1) Crate Training.
2) Take the pup out every 20-30 minutes whether it appears they need to go or not. When they do finally go "outside" give them lots of praises. If they have an accident you can't scold them "after the fact" you have to catch them in "in the act" then take them out side to finish their business.

Here's an article that sums up crate training and house breaking a pup. http://french-brittany.com/crate.pdf

Killer Instinct · Post by **Killer Instinct** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:31 pm

Didn't need the crate for potty breaking with my two, but had it set aside "just in case". I RELIGOUSLY let both of them out every 20-30 minutes (last call was at 11:00 pm - they sleep in the bedroom) & took them (carried them if I had to) to the "potty/poop" spot (lots of praise when they went - kept saying "hurry Up" while they went)...

Fast forward 1 1/2 yrs later - they go to the same spot (makes cleanup easier!) without me going out there with them. Just about anywhere we go, most times all I have to do is say "Hurry up", & they go pee... it'll happen for you - you'll see....

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:26 pm

Killer Instinct wrote:Didn't need the crate for potty breaking with my two, but had it set aside "just in case". I RELIGOUSLY let both of them out every 20-30 minutes (last call was at 11:00 pm - they sleep in the bedroom) & took them to the "potty/poop" spot (lots of praise when they went - kept saying "hurry Up" while they went)...
Fast forward 1 1/2 yrs later - they go to the same spot (makes cleanup easier!) without me going out there with them. Just about anywhere we go, most times all I have to do is say "Hurry up", & they go pee... it'll happen for you - you'll see....

I teach mine the command "do your business" and always use the same spot... I have a friend that uses "make poo" and "make pee" LOL I just cant get that specific.. The bottom line is that they will learn what you want them to do and once they are trained you can use the command anywhere and have them take care of things. It sure comes i handy when you are traveling and want to get back into your motel room and not hang out in dark parking lots at midnight.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:21 pm

I am also doing the every 30 min as suggested along with the bell. I hope that this will do it, time will tell.

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:12 pm

Two Bears wrote:I am also doing the every 30 min as suggested along with the bell. I hope that this will do it, time will tell.

Been 2 days already. That's a lot of potty breaks; is it working?

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:36 pm

Well as I write this we had an accident (3rd today) but no big jobs.
We have been doing the every 30 min deal which is helping out so we will see how things go.
She has not rung any bell yet but has gone to the door a couple times today.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:40 pm

Two Bears,
You pup sound like she is a little head strong and maybe very alpha as she peed on your sons jacket. A sign of marking in my book. Having said that...

You can't just hang a bell on the door and expect her to know to ring it and what that means to her. You must teach her how to ring the bell to go outside. There is a training program to the bell technique.

If you used a food treat when she came back into the house you rewarded her for coming in the house not for pottying outside. She needs the praise right after she pees or poops in the yard. YOU or someone must be there with her when she needs to go, you can't just send her outside to potty onher own. It is also very simple to teach her to put a commnad to this action too, like others have said. I think it helps a lot in the begining and maybe a must for any traveling hunting dog.

I understand your different schedules between your wife and yourself but If she is protesting the crate she must get used to it. It should never used as punishment. The crate is one of the most important tools for house training when you know the limits for using the crate. I have certainly taught a pup to be house broken with out it but it easier with one.

I have lots of questions for you to get all the details as I think you are missing some important details in your technique of house training your pup. Not hard for me to figure out if we could talk more. I would be very happy to help you if you would e-mail me directly at .... thedogtrainer@yahoo.com Maybe even a phone call would help too. Teaching new puppy owners how to potty train their pups is a major part of my professional dog training business. I get calls weekly on this subject. Anyway if you would like more one on one help just write me.

MikeB

SueinNH · Post by **SueinNH** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Bella Dad

Please, take your little girl to the vet! She may have a bladder infection if she has to pee so often.
If you can catch "a sample" just before you go, that would be a big help. They can test the pee for bacteria.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:26 pm

We are going out with her and showing her how to ring the bell, AND giving her a treat at the moment she goes, sometimes its 2 treats 1 small one for the pee and when she does #2 she gets the bigger half of the scoobie snack. She even looks/comes to me for the treat after she pees and is looking/expecting it. She is always on the lead.

Today is way better, we are diligent on the half hour deal and she goes every time, and today we have no accidents so hopefully this will continue on and she will start holding it and letting us know by making the belll ring or whine at the door. She has scratched at the door a few different times so we thought that she was getting it then but has not done that too many times.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:13 am

feel free to go to the vet I certainly wouldn't want to counter any advise there, but my 5 1/2 months old will still go every single time we go out no matter how often and most of my girls have been able to go every 30 minutes until they were older if I asked them to. Just as they learned to hold it and to ask - I didn't ask them to. If you watch a litter of puppies at 8 ish weeks you will see them peeing ALOT. I know there is an age difference, but the important difference is learning that they can hold it. That is why crate training is so helpful.

I think that is where your breakdown is with her and you muct give her incentive to hold it and wait, as well as learning to ask. the older way was incentive in the way of punishment when caught, but of course they will quickly learn that they are only punished when they are caught and they'll run and hide in another room. That's where the leash prohibits hiding and allows them to be caught every time, but then if you have ample opportunity a simple and slight repremand is plenty. Also do not be afraid to restrict water a little once you are sure she has no infection. I do not provide free access to water INDOORS while house training, only access just before going out and during outside play. If you are going out every 30 minutes she should have plenty of water even if you only offered it every other time

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:53 am

How many hours a day then would your dogs not have access to water?

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:21 am

SueinNH wrote:Bella Dad

Please, take your little girl to the vet! She may have a bladder infection if she has to pee so often.
If you can catch "a sample" just before you go, that would be a big help. They can test the pee for bacteria.

My pup was going a lot at around 3 months, and it turned out she did have an infection. When she got down to having to dribble every 10-15 minutes, I got suspicious. Accidents were few and far between after that, although I still kept to letting her out every 30 minutes if she was up and about.......and she'd pee every time. Even now at nearly 20 months, if she's up and playing with toys, she'll have to go every hour or so.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:41 am

well they are going out every 30 minutes to an hour and allowed to drink their fill every 30 to an hour while out depending on age for up to 16 even 18 or 20 hours depending on how long they will or will not sleep through the night. You do have to let them drink first and stay out a little longer to give them a chance to pee after they drink again. Which helps to train the command with the action of peeing. So 16 to 20 times a day they can drink their fill. But this is just for a few weeks while we are potty training. A dog will have to pee constantly if it drinks constantly and much like children when it is time to learn to "hold it" the doctor will tell you to not give water (or food) 1-2 hours before bedtime and no more until breakfast. For my youngest son that's from 7pm until 6:30am, so my dogs even while potty training actually have much greater access to water than my own children. I also do not give my kids drinks in the car while on long trips over 4 hours, but we stop alot and they can drink at every stop. AND pee. many times I assure you. Imagine the little toddler trying to learn to potty train with sippy cups of juice being downed for the whole long road trip. We'd be stopping very mile. Even I, have to watch it now and then for myself

If you kenneled your dog outdoors during freezing weather would you freshen their water 16 - 20 times every day to be sure they had thawed water all the time. I don't kennel the under 6 months, but many folks do. And 4 to 6 times a day is about the max for most people I know who do not have heated buckets. (I do not know anyone with more than 2 dogs to have these, but we are in TN) Even if you doubled that for the puppy thats 8 - 12 times. Still less than what we do for the adults. But I do not free feed the dogs at any age, and potty training puppies do not get free access to water all day all the time.

If you should feel scientific you can figure out the daily maintaince fluids that a dog needs by weight and offer 3 times that over the course of the day and they may or may not drink it unless they are losing fluids another way, like diarrhea, vomiting, of higher than normal levels of excersise.

Maintenance rates (many)

ml/day or kcal/day = 30 X Kg + 70

1 ml per lb. per hour

66 ml / kg / day for dogs

44 ml / kg / day for cats

30 ml / lb. / day

Maintenance rates consider both sensible (urine, feces) and insensible loss. They do not take into account losses due to vomiting and diarrhea or PU/PD.

Better to measure “ins and outs” and estimate volumes and then add 2 ml / kg / hour for insensible loss.

Rates that are multiples of maintenance (ie: twice maintenance fluids) may be employed in specific disease situations (ie: diuresis in renal failure).

So, a 20 lb puppy (9.09 kg) would get a minimum of 66.0 ml x 9.09 = 599.9ml a day (that's 24 hour day) but puppies may have an increased need slightly so let's say 700ml of fluids. 0.7 L = 2.95872 cup(US) minimum
So I offer about that much every time. And they drink alot more than 3 cups I assure you!

So you see how if you are careful and attentive, you have plenty of room to restrict the probably free water you are offering now a little to help you out.
***BUT NOT IF THERE IS ANY RISK OF INFECTION, ESPECIALLY A URINARY TRACT OR BLADDER INFECTION!***

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:10 am

My gosh. Did you do your PHD on this subject?

Very interesting. Thanks.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:49 pm

Knew another guy that did the same thing. Dog started ringing the bell incessantly for the treats. Pavlov. Drove him nuts and he threw away the bell. Dog kept scratching the door. I think the bell is a dumb idea.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:17 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Knew another guy that did the same thing. Dog started ringing the bell incessantly for the treats. Pavlov. Drove him nuts and he threw away the bell. Dog kept scratching the door. I think the bell is a dumb idea.

It may be dumb but Shiloh rang the bell twice today...

OK so we had a great morning and early afternoon (no accidents), Then I went to work and a few hours later my wife calls me and says she has had it, the pup is making messes all over and she is tearing uo everything...The kids came home from school and the pup looses her mind.
I am going to try the crate again when the kids come home.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:20 am

Sounds like "shiloh" is ringing your wife's bell too!!

You know, you could just kennel the dog outside.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:20 pm

We will be kenneling her outside when spring hits, I am sure it still cold and knee deep in snow where you are as where I am at so the kennel will have to wait.
We will be fencing in our back yard so the dogs can have some space to stretch the legs a bit.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:03 pm

Do you feel like she does worse when you are not home? Perhaps there is a consistancy issue. I am extrordinarily attentive when house training but my husband can be easily distracted by the kids and cooking and all if I am not home and accidents happen more often. For this reason I ask him to put the a puppy in the out in the yard while he is cooking or getting the kids in bed or whatever then get the puppy back out. Maybe both you wife and the puppy would benefit from some kenneling while you are at work. You would be surprised at how learning to tolerate restrictions helps young dogs out. Teaches them a little patience and reminds them of how much they like the indoors and sometimes they try harder to behave if they do not have it all the time. Thoughts.

BellaDad · Post by **BellaDad** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:47 pm

SueinNH wrote:Bella Dad

Please, take your little girl to the vet! She may have a bladder infection if she has to pee so often.
If you can catch "a sample" just before you go, that would be a big help. They can test the pee for bacteria.

Thanks for the suggestion, I called the vet, he said to give it a few more days and if it didn't get better to bring her in. After the first week she has gotten much better about it, it's almost back to regular now. I took her in to get the stich removed as well and the vet said no problems. He explained that with the surgery and all the impacts on everything down there that it isn't uncommon.

NeBrittany · Post by **NeBrittany** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:17 pm

Two Bears wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Knew another guy that did the same thing. Dog started ringing the bell incessantly for the treats. Pavlov. Drove him nuts and he threw away the bell. Dog kept scratching the door. I think the bell is a dumb idea.

It may be dumb but Shiloh rang the bell twice today...

OK so we had a great morning and early afternoon (no accidents), Then I went to work and a few hours later my wife calls me and says she has had it, the pup is making messes all over and she is tearing uo everything...The kids came home from school and the pup looses her mind.
I am going to try the crate again when the kids come home.

No matter what their age is, it wouldn't hurt the kids one bit to help out with this while your gone. You may "Own" the pup. But its still a family pet. So the kids could hold down some responsibilities too.

Get regular kitchen timer, that can be set for a minimum of 20 minutes. When your at work they should set the timer. And make a habit of it to reset the timer for 20-30 minutes every time they come back in from taking the pup out to do her business.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:23 pm

BellaDad wrote:
SueinNH wrote:Bella Dad

Please, take your little girl to the vet! She may have a bladder infection if she has to pee so often.
If you can catch "a sample" just before you go, that would be a big help. They can test the pee for bacteria.

Thanks for the suggestion, I called the vet, he said to give it a few more days and if it didn't get better to bring her in. After the first week she has gotten much better about it, it's almost back to regular now. I took her in to get the stich removed as well and the vet said no problems. He explained that with the surgery and all the impacts on everything down there that it isn't uncommon.

Have i missed something? This is the first I've heard of a 'stitch down there" in this thread. I reread but didn't see anything.

BellaDad · Post by **BellaDad** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:37 pm

I said I had her spade and she's been peeing a lot, asked within this thread. When I took her to get the stich removed from her surgery he said its fine.

Sharon wrote:
BellaDad wrote:
SueinNH wrote:Bella Dad

Please, take your little girl to the vet! She may have a bladder infection if she has to pee so often.
If you can catch "a sample" just before you go, that would be a big help. They can test the pee for bacteria.

Thanks for the suggestion, I called the vet, he said to give it a few more days and if it didn't get better to bring her in. After the first week she has gotten much better about it, it's almost back to regular now. I took her in to get the stich removed as well and the vet said no problems. He explained that with the surgery and all the impacts on everything down there that it isn't uncommon.

Have i missed something? This is the first I've heard of a 'stitch down there" in this thread. I reread but didn't see anything.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:51 pm

the author of the spayed dog was adding to the post but was not the one that started the post. He did mention that on the first page somewhere, but it is a slight derivation from the original posters issues.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Ah. Well, that's explains everything.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:01 pm

Sharon, I have to say that your dogs expression in your avatar makes me smile. I kinda feel like she is giving me the "are you crazy?" look

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Hmm. Sometimes she does know more then me.

shelttc · Post by **shelttc** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:12 pm

I made it a point to make any unwanted behavior a very displeasurable experience; though I never physically touched the dog (unless picking him up to take him outside), I growled "no, no, no" as mean as I could and moved quickly and aggressively toward the dog when I saw him doing something I didn't like. The exact opposite was true of desired behaviors; I acted like he just one the world series (though not in a way that I thought might frighten him). The key was making it so incedibly easy for him to distinguish between wanted/unwanted behavior. A simple "no, pup" or tap on the rear-end just wasn't cutting it for me and my dog. My rationale came from watching dogs interact with other dogs. When they are unhappy about something they make no bones about it, they let each other know in a way that usually seems really mean to us. So it's not cruel to be intimidating to the puppy, that's in their natural way of doing things. The other thing is only punishing him when he is caught in the act, but I'm sure you already know this.

Two Bears · Post by **Two Bears** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:05 am

Well things are getting better. No accidents 2 days now.
We have been dilligent about the every 30 min and also the bell on the door ( she has rung the bell 6 times in two days so I think that she is starting to get it.
Lets hope that this trend keeps going north for us.

Now if it only quit snowing so we can get her outside on some yard work and bird play....We are supposed to get 9 - 11 inches of snow today / night so we are getting more delays for the yard work.

WOW and as I type this Shiloh started scratching at the gate to go outside, and did both jobs !

Happy days!!!!

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:13 am

All right!! You did it! Congrats.