Best way to reel 'em in

[bradtown]

Gotta couple of BIG running dogs (English Setters).

Whats the best way to reel 'em in w/o getting too heavy with the collar?

One is a 2 year old, the other is just over a year

TIA!.

[Prairie dog]

Hunt them in tall cover.....Or forget about it..

[ezzy333]

CC and whistle training is the foundation and then work them in the field turning them when they hit the limit you have established. They will soon learn how far they are allowed to go.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Coupled to what ezzy says, after you have established a pattern give them birds and lots of them so that they come to believe it - The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

[gonehuntin']

What Ezzy said, plus when you plant or salt a field, keep the birds no more than 50 yards apart so the dogs learn to expect the birds in close.

Just how far is the dog ranging that you're concerned?

[Prairie dog]

Coupled to what ezzy says, after you have established a pattern give them birds and lots of them so that they come to believe it - The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

The planting birds near the handler will only work if training for a NSTRA trial and as long as there is bird scent to keep him up close, and why the dog stays in the training field .Yet In the wild, if the dog can't find his usual bird up close the dog is dog gone looking for what drives him [birds].....
Best long lasting solution in my opinion is making the dog as honest on his birds as he can be . Then get yourself a tracker ..

[slistoe]

You have a way to make a dog honest? I can teach them manners but I can't make them honest.

No one said it would be quick or easy - there are no shortcuts and you can undo the work way faster than you can do it. Teach them a pattern and limit, then make them believe it. As you know, if the dog doesn't believe it he won't hold to it.

[ezzy333]

Coupled to what ezzy says, after you have established a pattern give them birds and lots of them so that they come to believe it - The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

The planting birds near the handler will only work if training for a NSTRA trial and as long as there is bird scent to keep him up close, and why the dog stays in the training field .Yet In the wild, if the dog can't find his usual bird up close the dog is dog gone looking for what drives him [birds].....
Best long lasting solution in my opinion is making the dog as honest on his birds as he can be . Then get yourself a tracker ..

The method we suggested works as I am sure most everybody knows that has to hunt here in the midwest since many of our fields are only a few acres. In places it is hard to find many cover fields that are more than ten to twenty acres. To hunt those comfortably the dog will be within a hundred yards or closer. I ealize it is a whole nother ball game when we get out on the prairies but there just isn't room for a bigger running dog. Since many of us hunt in different places that allow for different ranges it becomes important that we have a dog that can and will hunt close when needed. Thats where the training comes in.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Coupled to what ezzy says, after you have established a pattern give them birds and lots of them so that they come to believe it - The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

The planting birds near the handler will only work if training for a NSTRA trial and as long as there is bird scent to keep him up close, and why the dog stays in the training field .Yet In the wild, if the dog can't find his usual bird up close the dog is dog gone looking for what drives him [birds].....
Best long lasting solution in my opinion is making the dog as honest on his birds as he can be . Then get yourself a tracker ..

Prairie dog -

I must be doing something wrong, because I do not participate in NSTRA trials( and never have), but I will plant birds close when training for a walking stake or even a horseback stake on grounds that I know to be tight. When I train those same dogs for a horseback shooting dog stake on an open venue or in an all age horseback stake I put the training birds much farther out and use fewer. Yes-I hunt and trial the same dogs and I participate in AKC gundog stakes, AFTCA and USCSDA walking shooting dog stakes, AFTCA horseback shooting dog stakes and AFTCA All Age stakes...with the same dogs. I even place them occasionally.

A few days before entering my dogs in a renewal of the National Amateur Walking Shooting Dog Championship a few years back, I ran both dogs on a shooting preserve, keeping them close and finished off by planting a few birds for each dog in a very confined area and let them stand, on point for extended periods on the planted birds. Both dogs did a very nice job on the ground and stayed with me on foot. One of the dogs was actually lost for about five minutes and was only found on point because the other handler's dog backed him out in the open. He was on point, with a small covey of liberated quail milling around in front of him, for about ten minutes all together because it took me about two minutes to jog to where he was standing. I'd say that was pretty honest of him. I never "taught" him to be honest. I just did the yardwork. He did the rest. Imagine that!

Fact is you can teach a dog to pattern the way you want, using an e-collar and a turn command. It is called bending and it is done all the time.

Dogs are amazingly adaptable creatures and a well bred bird dog can be trained to do a variety of things...and do them well... if we know how to help them learn. There are lots of ways to get from here to there with a bird dog.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

"A few days before entering my dogs in a renewal of the National Amateur Walking Shooting Dog Championship a few years back, I ran both dogs on a shooting preserve, keeping them close and finished off by planting a few birds for each dog in a very confined area and let them stand, on point for extended periods on the planted birds. Both dogs did a very nice job on the ground and stayed with me on foot. One of the dogs was actually lost for about five minutes and was only found on point because the other handler's dog backed him out in the open. He was on point, with a small covey of liberated quail milling around in front of him, for about ten minutes all together becaue it took me about two minutes to jog to where he was standing. I'd say that was pretty honest of him. "

"

Two reasons for that. One there is scent from the planted birds and the activity that takes place at a trial that helped your dog . Two. The fact that what you did two days ago help carry you through the trial does not equate to a shorter ranging dog out in the wild for ever...

Bending the dog with an e collar on the other hand is not something I would recommend to some one asking how too's on a public forum..
Other than that I agree with what you said ,but I don't agree what took place had anything to do with the reasons you think it did.JMO.

[R-Heaton]

I see your from Texas so I will assume you hunt wild quail. I don't have any great suggestions but a couple things you might try is to fatten the dogs up a little,,, instead of keeping them lean and mean,, try adding a couple of pounds to slow them down. You said you have 2 dogs make sure your not running them together it will lead to them hunting with each other and forget that you are part of the equation too.

[quote="slistoe"]The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

Slistoe,, this had to come out wrong? Its 100% wrong IMO, not meaning to start anything but don't want to Wow? Example,,, Doc Favor on a whim (yestarday) loaded up the dogs drove 20 hours to Az doesn't have a clue where he is going, gets the dogs out 1300 miles away from home,,,,, and I would bet he is putting all his faith in his dogs to find the birds.

[slistoe]

No R-Heaton, that did not come out wrong. He has dogs that go to finding birds. He wants to change that behavior. He wants to go from having dogs that search out birds wherever they may be found to dogs that will only hunt in the near proximity to him regardless of whether there is indication of birds in the area or not. He need to teach them that they can trust that birds will always be found in the near proximity to him and not anywhere else - EVER. Then they well never leave where he is. That is not at all how I hunt, not how Doc Favor hunts and I am pretty sure it is not how you hunt, but it is how this fellow wants to hunt.

[slistoe]

I see your from Texas so I will assume you hunt wild quail. I don't have any great suggestions but a couple things you might try is to fatten the dogs up a little,,, instead of keeping them lean and mean,, try adding a couple of pounds to slow them down. You said you have 2 dogs make sure your not running them together it will lead to them hunting with each other and forget that you are part of the equation too.

I had to chuckle on the fatten them up thing. Way back when I first went to some trials to observe the goings on one of the first things I noticed was the good natured ribbing amongst the competitors. One of the fellows had an aging pointer that was carrying a few extra pounds. A few oinks and other comments were directed towards the fellow as he was approaching the line. He responded that he had to slow her down a little for the dinky little course they had set up. He won the stake with that dog.

A good point about the competition thing as well. I have two kennel mates that are a year apart in age. I could not turn them loose together. They could hunt with any other dog around, but when they eyeballed each other the race was on. They are 12 and 13 now and have not seen open field together for 10 years. I still don't trust them. They are two of the best hunting dogs I have ever had, but their competitive nature could not be reconciled between the two of them.

[RayGubernat]

Prairie dog -

You wrote:

"Two reasons for that. One there is scent from the planted birds and the activity that takes place at a trial that helped your dog . Two. The fact that what you did two days ago help carry you through the trial does not equate to a shorter ranging dog out in the wild for ever...

Bending the dog with an e collar on the other hand is not something I would recommend to some one asking how too's on a public forum.."

I do not understand at all, what it is you are attempting to say with the first of your two reasons statement. How in the world does a small covey of liberated birds, milling around in front of a dog on point "HELP" to keep a dog steady? If anything, such behavior will cause a dog to come unglued.

I also do not understand what you are getting at with your second reason.... I stated that I compete, with some success, in a wide range of field trials, ranging from AKC Gundog to AFTCA horseback All age and pretty much everything in between.
In truth my dogs are, at their core, big running shooting dogs. Their "natural" ground application is typically that which could be expected of a horseback shooting dog on most days and in most types of cover. One of my dogs, on some days, is actually borderline all age in ground application. However, they will adjust their ground application, depending on exactly what we are doing. It does seem to help them perform better at a trial if if I work them, in training, in the manner I wish them to perform on those particular grounds and in that specific kind of stake.

As far as not recommending bending a dog with an e-collar...why not? It is a relatively simple process...made simpler by yardwork preparation with a checkcord and prong or pinch collar. Of course it would be better if someone demonstrated the process to a novice, but, like most dog training...it ain't rocket science. With patience, persistence and a light trouch with the collar, most folks can install an acceptable ground pattern in a gun dog dog without screwing the dog up.

Now, I would not recommend trying to adapt a double bred Miller dog to do fifty yard figure eights in front of you, not because it can't be done, but because it really ain't worth the time and effort it would take to get it done right without messing with the dog's head. A double bred Elhew dog might well be a much better candidate.


RayG

[Prairie dog]

Your dog being steady a round a milling covey has nothing what ever to do with reeling a dog in .So I did not address the reason for your steady dog. Just on top of my head I'd say you have /had a pretty honest dog..
And while your dogs may well be big running shooting dogs does not mean they will not revert back to their natural range--borderline AA in just few days. and on top of that simply because you were able to keep the dog for half an hour forty five minutes does not say you will keep him at that distance out somewhere where he can roll...That's what we are talking about here, After all you did say it helps when you work them on specifics, specifics that will only last for the time length of the trial entered. . And I have to assume those specifics might be different from one type of trial to the next.. You didn't say your dogs range is altered permanently by any known method to where we can suggest to the fellow with the big running Setter --the dog we are talking about--- that will help turn him in to something that will hunt fifty yards /75 yards/100 yards at his whim, or what ever distance the terrain hunted dictates.....

The reason I don't think it's a good idea to suggest the e collar as the means for control,is that little too high of a setting and the dog may not want to leave his side...I do agree, the dog can indeed be controlled via the e collar just about as far as he can be seen..But that aint training the dog to alter his range ,is it. It's more like a form of coercion. If he wants that by all means tell him how to..









..

[RayGubernat]

Prairie dog -

The only reason I went into detail about that particular dog was because you were making a big deal about dog's being honest and how it takes birds and birds to do that. I don't show my dogs lots of birds, as a rule and they get the message. There are lots of ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. Using lots of birds is one way...there are others.

I agree, we are both talking about modifying a dog's ground application and range for the foot hunter in open country. I do not want to permanently modify my dogs' ground application or range because I do a bunch of different things with them. I do want them to pull it in or stretch it out, work the field out or run the edge, depending on what we are doing and where we are doing it.

However, if I did want to permanently modify a dogs ground application and range, and teach it to quarter, I would start out with a checkcord and a prong collar(I am a cheapskate and prong collars are less expensive than pinch collars) and probably some puppy biscuits or dog kibble.

I use the same treats to teach my dogs to "hunt dead" in the yard. I surreptitiously drop a small handful of kibble or biscuits and call the dog over and urge it to "hunt dead". They turn into Hoovers very quickly.

The first thing I would do to alter a dog's ground patern is to install a turn command using a long checkcord and a prong collar.

Then I would take a handful of kibble or puppy biscuits and put them out one kibble at a time, with each kibble or biscuit a few feet apart, in a line about 50 ft. long. I would advance about 20ft. and make another line of kibble pieces or biscuits. In all I would make about four lines with a day's ration of kibble. It heplps to do this before you feed the dog...hunger sahrpens the senses a bit. I would put the dog at heel in front of the first line and send it forward and give the command, "hunt dead"when it hit the line at one end. I would give the turn command and the dog will "turn and hunt dead", scarfing up the treats all along the line. At the end of the line I would give another turn command , allow the dog to advance to the next line, turn it again and let it hunt dead up that second line.

The first time or two you do this drill you will probably have to pull and tug the dog to get it to go where you want. After figuring out that there is food treats involved and dong it my way gets the dog into the maximum mamount of treats in the minimum amount of time...the dog will...very rapidly...fall into a pattern of advancing to a spot, turning and running up a line, turning, advancing, running up a line...in other words running a pattern in front of the handler. If the handler gives the turn cues and the hunt cues at the same time the dog turns and puts its head down to hunt dead/fnd food, the dog will begin to associate the turn cues with the patterning. I didn't dream this up myself. I got the idea from Derry Argue in his book Pointers and Setters. The Brits are apparently real big on dogs covering ground in a very prescibed manner.

Transferring that to the field with an e-collar is relatively simple and can usually be started I
with a verbal turn cue and a low level nick, and relatively quickly progress to only a very low level nick as the turn cue...leaving out the "huntd ead" portion of the drill of course. If the trainer is consistent in his training and distance estimation, the dog will head out from the handler and eventually it will begin to turn or "bend" a fraction of a second before the trainer hits the nick, working back and forth in front of the trainer. If you do this long enough, the dog will come to understand that the outer edge of the zone you create with your e-collar nicks is the zone it must operate in. Is it coercion??...certainly, but then ALL training involves a certain amount of coercion.

What matters is not that the dog has been molded and shaped to do what we wish. That is easy. What matters and what makes ALL the difference is that we must be able to mold and shape that dog to do our bidding without crushing the spirit, squelching the joy, the independence and the confidence of the animal...if we want to call ourselves trainers.

I'm still working on that part. Hope i never stop working on it.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

Sorry Ray . There is nothing more I like to do than agree with you . Unfortunately I can't bring myself to say the dogs range through any form of training can be altered permanently ,quartering or by any other means besides the e collar....
The reason of course for our disagreement is that I believe dogs come to us predisposed with certain traits.Traits that can not be altered through training, controlled through a form of coercion,yes. You obviously do not agree with that.

That is why I suggested to Webfoot to make the dog as honest as he can around birds . There is nothing wrong with a honest long ranging dog ,especially now with the invent of the tracker.

So rather than continue on the road that leads nowhere. I'll make my exit from this discussion to let others voice their opinions on this subject....

[RayGubernat]

Prairie dog -

Nothing in this life is forever. A dog's "natural ground application" will change over time, dependent on a lot of things, not the least of which is age, expereince and the desire(greater or lesser) to stay with the boss.

If the trainer is absolutely consistent with their insistence on the dog maintaining a certain ground pattern, that dog will come to work within that ground pattern, pretty much all of the time...for that trainer. Why?? Because it is easier for the dog to work within the boundaries.

The only dog that will not expand its envelope is the dog that is incapable of that expansion because of either physical or genetic predispositions.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

Ahh,that genetic predisposition. Funny how some only want to account for that with close working dogs...

Ray you mentioned Derry Argue ? in your previous post. Yes I know a bout him, I had his book once before I gave it to a friend with Setters as a gift.. Please try to understand that what Mr. Argue was doing with the treats --food-- was not altering a dogs work pattern. What he was doing was enhancing it with treats. Quartering in highly valued in Europe the Continent and the UK. They also breed for it..

[slistoe]

Ahh,that genetic predisposition. Funny how some only want to account for that with close working dogs...

I thought you were out of here.

You don't believe the age old axiom - You can reel them in but you can't push them out.

[RayGubernat]

Prairie dog -

You are so right...some just don't want to hear what does not serve their purpose or support their position. Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong. If it isn't what they want to hear...it is wrong or irrelevant and is dismissed or ignored.

Kinda like the car salesman who has only four door cars and a customer who wants a two door coupe. The salesman does not want to hear that the customer wants a two door because that ain't what he is selling.

If you have a dog whose ground application is that of a close working dog, there is no need to keep the dog close because it does it. No training involved. I am unaware of any training methodology which will take such a dog and get it hunt with a wider ground application. You can get a dog to run bigger but it won't be hunting.

As far as Derry Argue's book...what I read indicated to me that he did , in fact, spend a great deal of time and effort getting his dogs to pattern the way he wanted them to, going so far as to take a dog's daily ration of kibble and put it out in a five acre field, in a quartering pattern...kibble by kibble. The reasoning he stated in his book was that if the dog wanted to eat, the dog would learn to quarter. At least that is what I read. He went so far as to diagram his ideal quartering scheme for several different scenarios and wind directions. His dissertations on quartering covered several pages in his rather compact book, so I took that to mean he was rather concerned about the ability of dogs to quarter properly.


I just happened to pick up Mr. Argue's book, for the first time in about ten years or so. I will retype a passage from pg. 112:

"A young dog may have a very ragged quartering pattern as it goes forward to investigate every strange scent. But it will all come right with experience as the dog lerns to interpret what his nose tells him and becomes more confident. If a dog bores too far into the wind, call him back to you and send him out to the side again. This will teach him not to miss ground."

and a little farther down the same page he wrote:


" In these days of field trialing, it is usual for many to train a dog to quarter on bare ground. The dog's natural enthusiasm for running is controlled so it will run back and forth according to a mathematical pattern rather than what its intelligence dictates."

I am deeply touched by your obvious concern regarding my ability to comprehend what Mr. Argue was attempting to communicate. Not to be condescending about it, I must say I do however feel that my reading comprehension skills are quite adequate to the task.

Perhaps you read a different edition??


RayG

[Prairie dog]

No, I think we read the same addition.


I agree that argue wanted to train his dogs to quarter the way he wanted them otherwise why would he go through the trouble,must have cost him a pretty pound or two .. That in itself does not say he did not have dogs that already quartered. Nothing different than taking a good pup that was bred to retrieve and enhancing the pups retrieving through a form of drill/s..

But to say you can make a quartering dog out of a wide ranging straight liner is like saying you can put the search in a dog that does not have any and expect him to be a good retriever. On the other hand a dog can be tought to bend like you said earlier in one of your posts. Either by voice or by the sound of the whistle,they can also be trained to take hand directions. But to say you can train a straight liner to zig-zag permanently when he was predisposed to straight line and do it with out a form of coercion ,that I do not agree with.

I don't disagree with you that close working dogs can't be made to range wider and be just as affective and natural .. If we agree on that ,then why are we not in agreement on reeling in a wide ranging dog and have him be just as affective and natural. After all both dogs are drven or lack there off by their genetic make up. Who's to say the wide ranging dogs gene that drives him far, wide and in straight line is weaker than the closer working dogs Gene that keeps him bonded closer to to his handler ..

I think this line by Mr. Aegue expains more than anything you read in his book and what I attempted to convey.----
"A young dog may have a very ragged quartering pattern.".

Can a predisposed flusher be made in to reliable pointer? why not. Could it be genetic.

[slistoe]

So PDog, why does a wide ranging dog range wide? Why does the close dog not move out at all? It is not a "cooperative" bonding thing with the handler.

Any dog worth having in the field can be made into a quartering dog.

[RayGubernat]

The original poster asked for some ways to reel in a big runner withut getting too heavy owith the e-collar. The discussion is morphing into something else and perhaps should be another topic.

I think I have said all I have to say on the subject of reeling in a dog and would like to leave it at that.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

The original poster asked for some ways to reel in a big runner withut getting too heavy owith the e-collar. The discussion is morphing into something else and perhaps should be another topic.

I think I have said all I have to say on the subject of reeling in a dog and would like to leave it at that.

RayG

And the discussion has been on the pros and con's on attempting such a thing along with the reasons why it can not be done with out some form of coercion. So,maybe ,if it's important to him he will have to learn how to use the e collar if he does not already know...

And Ray, I too have said all I'm going to on this subject.

[bradtown]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions!
The Setter I had before these two liked to hunt close, a little too close.
We are hunting huge amounts of land in W Tx, wild quail, so I let these two range, and range they do.
When preserve hunting, pheasant hunting, or heading into smaller ventures I need to bring 'em in. I hate using the collar anymore than needed , thus the question.
We've been working on 'bending' commands this week, along with a little more 'whistle' - - although they dont like it.

[RayGubernat]

Bradtown -

Over time I believe you will find that your dogs will make an adjustment when you go to hunt a preserve versus when you hit the wide open country. You may have to remind them of which game they are playing on that particular day, but a good dog has the ability to suck it in as well as stretch it out.

It just takes time and consistency on your part as well as some patience and a sense of humor. They are not machines, so they will have good days, great days but unfortunately also the occasional somewhat less than stellar moment. But then so do we.

I have found that if the dog has an unquenchable desire to find birds, there isn't much that you cannot get the dog to do, if getting its gums wrapped around a bird is the ultimate reward.

RayG

[slistoe]

I have found that if the dog has an unquenchable desire to find birds, there isn't much that you cannot get the dog to do, if getting its gums wrapped around a bird is the ultimate reward.

Those are the genetics that give me joy and an adaptable dog, and give PDog fits.

[Prairie dog]

Unquenchable desire to find birds is found in a wide range of dogs. Some that hunt closer to the gun some that hunt little further out and those that range far and wide.... And then there is the dog in question. His desire to find birds is not in harmony with the owners desires and where the owner would like to have the birds found. It isn't about me and what I like nor it is about your likes either.

[RayGubernat]

PD -

It is not about a dog whos genetic abilities are not in harmony with the owners desires.

There is no such dog...never was and never will be...because if there were, they would not need any training whatsoever. They would do it all right out of the birth canal.

It is about taking a dog that has more, or in some cases...different natural abilities than the handler needs and molding, shaping and channelling those abilities to suit the needs of the handler. It is about taking a dog that has boundless energy, boundless enthusiasm and boundless desire and developing that dog into a companion hunting dog...if that is what is desired...that hunts for its master, in the manner which the master desires, with all the joy, enthusiasm and style that it was born with.

I most emphatically disagree with your proposition that a dog that has genetically limited ground application can have unquenchable desire. It quite simply does not. If it had unquenchable desire, that desire would force the dog to quest, farther and farther and wider...in search of birds. If the dog's ground application is genetically limited, then other factors, such as the need for interaction with its master, are to a certain extent, superceding its desire to find birds. It has been my observation that a dog with such genetic limitations cannot be made to do certain things. The old, and true(IMO) adage is that you can reel them in but you cannot push them out is what comes to mind .

I repeat again...if a dog has unquenchable desire to find birds, there is no limit to what you can teach that dog to do, provided the reward is wrapping its gums around a bird.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

Hey Ray ,we already told the guy to get an e collar on him or train him to be as honest as he can,than strap the tracker on.That's the only sure bet I see ..
Unquenchable desire to find birds could also mean with -- certain dogs -- a self hunter. So don't try to lock yourself in that Unquenchable desire to find birds theory that it means but one thing...

So much for saying all you were going to ..

[Prairie dog]

"It is about taking a dog that has more, or in some cases...different natural abilities than the handler needs and molding, shaping and channelling those abilities to suit the needs of the handler. It is about taking a dog that has boundless energy, boundless enthusiasm and boundless desire and developing that dog into a companion hunting dog...if that is what is desired...that hunts for its master, in the manner which the master desires, with all the joy, enthusiasm and style that it was born with"

Now Ray why can't a dog from the get go that hunts with his hunting partner can not poses all those desires. With talk like that it seems to me that you have not watched a good natural flushing dog at work or a dog that burns the field with all the unquenchable desire to find the bird/birds yet does not range much further than 100-125 yards from his handler....

Could it be that what I said in my previous post.Genetics at play......Desires Ray that's what dogs are made up with... The dog that likes to straight line it the horizon with out looking back is driven by a desire to find the bird that means more to him than checking in with his handler.... The desire to point in some dogs is stronger than to flush ,yet in other dogs the flush over the point is greater.. Desires Ray depending how strong they are ,can not be superseded by any amount of training..... Best in my opinion to find away to use them to your advantage rather than try to change them . This dog in question as an example.... By the way Ray. Curtailing --as in keeping it under control-- an undesirable trait is not same as saying the trait has been trained out of him to the point where the dogs knows nothing but what the trainer showed him...

[Prairie dog]

Ray you said this.."It is not about a dog whos genetic abilities are not in harmony with the owners desires."

Ray that would be true if Webfoot had not already old us what would be harmonious for him and his dog......You know there are countless dogs with genetics that keeps them venturing to the horizon , don't you.. Or do you think the dog that beats it to the horizon or the one that hardly ever ventures beyond 100 yards from his handler is not controlled by his genetic make up..

Many ,trainer / authors better suited to answer that old saying when asked that you can reel a dog in but can't push him out said the owner is best suited to get a dog to his ideal range rather than try to change what he already has...

Please allow me to mention Delmar Smith since you took the liberties to quote Derry Argue. The best Delmar smith was able to come up with --that the same guy you praised as one of the Masters-- in his book was to tie and let hang rubber balls from the dogs chest , and or let him drag a rope with a half hitch tied that might catch the dogs rear leg to slow him down....
Do you suppose he didn't know what you know when he wrote that in his book..Just asking Buddy.....

[RayGubernat]

PD -

First of all , It seems it is you that absolutely, postively, without ny question...

just has to have the last word. You also stated, after I did, that you were done with the topic. I guess you forgot that.

It is patently obvious that you don't really have a clue what it takes to train a bird dog that has more than the minimum amount of talent and are not interested in discussion but rather only argumentation.

So be it. You may have had the last word. Babble on all you want. Argue with yourself. The poster who asked the question has gotten the answer they needed. Bend with an e-collar.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

Sure Ray I figured since you said you had nothing further to say that I would also not say any more. Is that not so?

Not once through all that back and forth between us did I think we were arguing. Were you arguing Ray?

That's right ,Like I said in an earlier post, learn to use the e collar.

[Willie Hunter]

I’m not interested in reading all of the posts, but I will share my opinion for what it is worth. I have 2 big running setters and I’m positive that they could never be reeled in. These setters do check in often and they fully understand a come in whistle. Today I just headed to the last place I had seen them, came over the hill more than once today to see them pointing and backing, what a sight. I could care less how big they run, they are over the hill broke. I do think next year I will buy another Garmin Astro (I sold the one I had).

We had the best day all year hunting chukar, it was unreal.

[slistoe]

I will share my opinion for what it is worth. I have 2 big running setters and I’m positive that they could never be reeled in.

And what is the basis of experience upon which this opinion is built?

[Willie Hunter]

I will share my opinion for what it is worth. I have 2 big running setters and I’m positive that they could never be reeled in.

And what is the basis of experience upon which this opinion is built?

Because the handler sees no need in doing so, I could care less if they hunt at 400 yards or 1000 yards. I will tell you if we are finding birds they hunt closer, if not they will range big time. Is that not what they should be doing?

[ezzy333]

Not when you have permission to hunt a forty acre field.

[Willie Hunter]

Not when you have permission to hunt a forty acre field.

I guess I could put them on a check cord. I'm going to run the bandits in a Run & Gun in February, we'll see how that works out. I think the fields are 40 acres.

[slistoe]

I will share my opinion for what it is worth. I have 2 big running setters and I’m positive that they could never be reeled in.

And what is the basis of experience upon which this opinion is built?

Because the handler sees no need in doing so, I could care less if they hunt at 400 yards or 1000 yards. I will tell you if we are finding birds they hunt closer, if not they will range big time. Is that not what they should be doing?

Not wanting to do so and not being able to do so are infinitely removed from each other.

And yes, for where and how I hunt that is what they should be doing.

[Willie Hunter]

Coupled to what ezzy says, after you have established a pattern give them birds and lots of them so that they come to believe it - The Boss Knows Where to Hunt. (and do not give them opportunity to learn otherwise - ie. that they can find birds on their own.)

Interesting! The only thing I offer my dogs is a ride in the dog box to country that holds birds. When they are on the ground I spend my time following them. No doubt in my mind that my dogs know more about bird cover than I will ever know.

[slistoe]

Willie, this thread is not about what I want in a bird dog, nor is it about what you want in a bird dog. The thread is about what bradtown wants from his dogs. I offered him my advice on how he could do what he wanted. You proferred that it was not possible. I pointed out that you really wouldn't know if it was possible or not. You countered with the fact that you didn't want to. Although patently obvious, I took a chance that perhaps you really didn't realize they were different and that you were not intentionally baiting me. It seems I was wrong and the latter is the true case.

[Willie Hunter]

Not at all Scott, I took the handler option rather than debate whether a dog could be reeled in due to genetic make up. Oh and as far as experience I don’t have much.

[Benny]

Not at all Scott, I took the handler option rather than debate whether a dog could be reeled in due to genetic make up. Oh and as far as experience I don’t have much.

See! That's how you play nice on here
All great opinions with such diverse dog history. Another reason this is such a valuable site for newcomers like myself.

[slistoe]

Not at all Scott, I took the handler option rather than debate whether a dog could be reeled in due to genetic make up. Oh and as far as experience I don’t have much.

4 people with direct experience with dozens of dogs with wheels have stated on this thread that dogs with wheels can be brought in and how to go about doing it. Your opening on the topic was to jump into the genetic debate with both feet making a definitive statement - positive and never are not terms that leave much room for interpretation. You only started flailing the arms when you were called on it. Please, offer something more than "I don't want to change them." as basis for your dissension. At least offer up something like "My buddy Greg couldn't do it with his dog, so I don't think it can be done by anyone."

benny, patent redirection in place of retraction is hardly playing nice.

[Prairie dog]

I wonder if there's any truth to what the Old Master had to say on wide ranging dogs...Of course he might not have trained as many dogs as the dozens mentioned..

"The favorite Smith impediment for a wide ranger is a trip made in a pup's Check cord.. Measure a loop of check cord long enough tp trail on the beneath Pup's stomach . Occasionally a rear foot will fall in the loop , causing the pup to stumble".

Then of course another method he felt worthy for mention in his book was the bicycle inner tube...

And the bottom line he says for a hard head,is "out he goes"

[ezzy333]

One of the methods that used to be used back in those olden days was to hang rubber balls from the dogs collar with short peices of rope so they would hit the dog about knee level in the front legs when he was running. This would work with many dogs and slow plus shorten them. This was back before we all had collars. So many improvements in training equipment today than back in those years. Makes training so much faster and easier now than what we had to do then.

Ezzy

[Prairie dog]

That's right Ezzy. It's in Delmars book. Funny thing is, the e collar was in use by him back when he had his book wrote. I don't disagree /in fact I suggested that he should learn to use it. Having said that, that was not intended to say the dogs genetic make up is going to be done away with by the use of it. It was intended to imply the dog can be made to respect the collar more than the love he has to range wide...

[ezzy333]

Prairie dog,

Your arguements hold little validity to me as the purpose of training is to alter the normal instincts into something we can use. You do it jus like everyone else. And of course it is coersive as is all forms of corrwctions wether positive or negative. Bribery and whippings are both coersive and are used to change natural behavior. Of course mny times it has to be reinforced as the pup will regress till finally it becomes natural for the dog. Thats when the dog becomes honest in your words if I understand what you mean by that term.

All of this said, this thread was a question asked by a member and you plus several others have turned into an arguement over what your o[pinion is rather than an answer to the question. Plus you stated a couple of pages ago you had said all you were going to say. Lets let it stand right there. If you want to start another thread to discuss your opinion on range, lets do it and see if this one can get back on tract.

Ezzy