How to get pup away from me

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:42 pm

Today while training the pup on pigeons it took awhile for him to want to leave my side. The first flush I had to walk him close to the bird so he could get a wiff. After that then he would venture out more.

We were in a new area to him so that could be part of it. He loves to go after the pigeons and always tries to go in my coop to get some. He will venture out further on our walks but this is familiar ground to him. He also does fine when I'm running my other dogs.

How do I bolden him up so that he will run inhead of me all the time when he's alone with me? Is this something that will come with more time? He is almost eleven weeks old so I'm not sure what to expect. I understand he's a pup but I don't want him learning that it's ok to run right next to me.

Addict

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:49 pm

If you try to shoo the pup out from under you, you will, strangely, make it more dependent on you.

Just keep on with the walks along the edges of mowed fields.

You can also release pigeons, etc. and let pup chase them.

Best,

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:53 pm

Greg,

Thanks for the bit on shooing the pup out. I don't do that and let the pup move out on his own. The pasture I was in just had clumps of weeds that I would hide the birds in.

I know the mistakes of shooing because of one of my labs. I have to tell him to get out occasionally when he hasn't found any birds for awhile and gets tired/bored. It's very annoying and I swore I would never do that again.

Addict

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:42 pm

I don't know how old the pup is but if he/she is staying that close to you I don't think that pup is ready for birds. You must first let the dog gain confidence and some independence in the field before you start planting birds.

Janet

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:58 pm

I agree with Janet about planting birds for the pup. Pup could have a bad experience with a face full of pigeon.

Oh, heck, a better way of doing this would be for you to get Janet's video. I like the way she starts pups.

Best,

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:06 pm

ditto greg, get janets video and while you are at it get perfection kennels perfect start both are :thumbright:. cant get enough info on training. books do just fine but having a visual aid helps so much.

as for taking your V for a walk take him alone dont talk to him other than to keep in touch with him. it wont take long before he starts to venture on his own and increase his range.

like janet said leave the birds out of it right now. you know he has point in him. the videos will tell you when it is time to introduce birds and the best way of going about it. take your time dont rush things he will come along just fine.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:05 am

Keep the walks up and in due time you will be asking how to reel him in!
Remember he is just a pup.......

Katies Dad · Post by **Katies Dad** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:25 am

I know what you mean TAK about the reeling in! My pup really didnt start going very far until she was like 12-14 weeks! You have to remember that everything is brand new to them so just give it some time!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:39 am

Tak and Katies Dad are right. Just walk and enjoy. I think we get caught up in this training thing when in reality all we need to do is give a pup the opportunity to get out and explore with some guidance from us as they start to discover their inherited talents. In the meantime, till that happens, teach them some manners while you both are enjoying the fields and wildlife in your area. You will know when its time to start with corrections or providing guidance as the pup matures. Just remember the pup is a pup for a couple of years so take your time and be patient.

Ezzy

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:28 am

TAK wrote:Keep the walks up and in due time you will be asking how to reel him in!
Remember he is just a pup.......

Yeah, be careful what you wish for. When my weim was 11 weeks she'd literally sit down on my foot. Now...

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:33 pm

It's been awhile since I've had a pup and can't remember when they start to venture out more.

I noticed this weekend at the Lee Kay center that he would run out with the other dogs just fine. It was pointed out to me that when the pup is alone with me I'm kind of like a dog to him and so he will stay close to me like he did with the other dogs.

It won't be too much longer and he'll bolden up a bit and venture out on his own.

Addict

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:21 am

Addict-

I looked up your first post about this pup and saw he was 9 weeks in late June, so would be 12-13 weeks right now. You have a LOOOOT of time to work this out. Be patient and let him do it at his own speed. For a dog that age, any kind of cover is a little intimidating.

Here is what I do for a start with a pup, if it will help. I start with the "wing on a string" when they are as young as 5 - 6 weeks. Just a game and they are still tottering. The way you play this, is to fly the wing around and dance it ahead of them, to get them to chase. They chase until they get tired of chasing, and then all of a sudden, when you drop the wing to the ground, they point. Say nothing, just let them stand, eventually they will break and you do it all over again. Keep the sessions really short, 5 - 10 minutes. If pup grabs the wing, don't make a big deal of it, just walk over and take it out of their mouth and start over with the game. Do this a couple three weeks until the are chasing gleefully, and pointing, and not afraid of the wing. What we have done with this game, aside from getting pup to point and chase, is to avoid the law of unintended consequences, which is where a great idea backfires. You have worked pup up to bird exposure under controlled conditions (you are the bird), so when pup gets into his first bird, he is all gung ho, and very small chance he will react with fright.

Then get some quail if you can and plant them by hand, no cage or launcher. Take pup out and have him find the bird whether he points or not, and allow him to chase. You can put a piece of 2 1/2 foot length of thread on the quail if you want to find and retrieve it, or use a callback box. Dog may catch some. Do not make a big deal of it. Just if it starts to happen often, you will need to begin to use some gentle check cording so it does not become a habit. Does not take much of this before you will have a dog that is beginning to get bird crazy, and you have to be a little careful where you turn him loose. Mine are usually at that stage somewhere around 3-4 months, but no need to rush at all. I have the equipment and place to start early, but you can do this up to about 9 months. Earlier would be a little better though. All should be a big game at this point.

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:21 am

Wagonmaster,

We are past the wing on a string but did it for awhile. He is gung-ho for pigeons and loves to maul them. He has never shied away from them.

I am starting to let him run up on some carded pigeons and they take off. In a couple more weeks they should start to home and I can lose the card. He is starting to point about half of them before he runs in and tries to grab one. I let him grab about half right now and the other half fly off. He also likes finding them when I toss them into some cover. He is getting daily bird exposure now. He is very persistant about trying to get into my coop when I feed cause he wants a bird bad!

I think he is 12 weeks old now and I'll wait a bit before enforcing his point. Every day he seems to go in harder for them. I want to make sure that he stays bird crazy. At what age should I start with the point enforcement?

Addict

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:04 pm

The answer is that this is a dog by dog individual thing, and also depends on the purpose for which the dog will be used. In field trials, we do not do this any earlier than 6 months, and usually wait until they are over a year, as a rule, especially to do any "enforcing," as in using a shock collar or other forms of pressure. We are tuning the dog for big run. If you are looking for a closer handling foot dog, earlier is not a sin, but would avoid shock collar or pinch collar early in any event.

Here is what I would suggest. Sounds like he is getting bird crazy, which is a good thing. I might slack off for a little while, say go to every three days or so, until those homers are ready to fly without carding, so pup cannot catch, or one hangs up in a tree, and pup runs up and wants to grab it out of the tree. Catching an occasional bird in puppyhood is not to me a mortal sin, but there is a point at which it starts to become counterproductive. If you can set up conditions where he cannot catch these birds, or catches very few, then I would go ahead and work him on those for a couple to a few weeks and see if the fact that he cannot catch them, helps extend his point. Sometimes, they just realize chasing is not getting them anywhere, and start to point. When this happens, I would not talk to the dog or give it any commands. Just watch and let pup learn by himself at this stage.

If we had wild birds, we would run the dog on those, because catching is nearly impossible, and the chasing at this stage, if without alot of catching, is a good thing. Addresses your question of "how do I get him away from me."

At some point, you are going to want to introduce the check cord. For starters, I would use a plain collar, no studs or choke chain, because all you are trying to do at this stage is restrain him into extending the point. You would allow the pup to establish point, get to the end of the check cord, and just take up the slack so there is slight pressure on the cord and dog knows it. Then can restrain him when he starts to break. When pup breaks point, would just work down the check cord, pick the dog up, put him back on the spot of the point, praise him quietly, and steady him up. Would still let him chase on the flush. If it were my dog, this is the most I would do until the dog is a year and has a hunting season under his belt.

Your question is when should I start the check cord, and I have to tell you I do not use a firm time rule on that. When you feel that things are getting a little out of hand, that pup is running off chasing birds and it is no longer a question of "how do I get him away from me," but of "how do I get him back," then it is time for the check cord. Is different for each dog and each individual handler will also have a different tolerance level for total independence. I call it the time to "put a cork in it." For me, that time has extended, and gotten later and later with the years, because I have confidence I can get a handle on the biggest runners, and break them. But have a horse and other stuff other people do not, and maybe more tolerance for big run. You use your own judgment on when it is time. Just remember, patience is best.

With mine, I ordinarily do not need to interfere much with the check cord in the first year. The pups just figure out the pointing thing, and I try to stay out of it. Usually by first hunting season somewhere around 6 - 9 months, they will point some birds for me, maybe not all, and will be ready to have some killed over them.

First hunting season can be a little frustrating for some people, because pup will bust birds, not retrieve some, etc. Not old enough for the pressure of breaking or force fetching in my book. Can gently try to induce these things, but if that does not work, too early to apply pressure. NAVHDA, etc., will have you start the obedience and FF earlier, but risks crimping style, independence, and most importantly in my view, dog's own process of learning to find birds. Becomes too dependent on you for where, too soon.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:01 pm

Wagon Master good Post! I like it! Addicts pup and Tope's pup came from me and I was lucky to see them again this past weekend.

I am pretty happy that I got the pups in the hands of Richard Ut, Tope and Addict. As I told them they make me look good! I am so pumped that they are willing to try so hard with them!

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:39 am

Excellent post wagonmaster, good tips.

You mentioned first season, I usually take my dogs out in sept to a field across the road that is crp and let them run birds till they drop. Gets them interested, then a shot out of a .22 blank every now and again till they can take the 12 guage. Opening day my dogs are ready to go. This year I have been invited to train on an old friends hunting preserve, might take him up on it and shoot a few before season starts.

I was in Minn a few weeks ago, Calladonia, very nice country but was told not too many birds.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:50 am

What birds?

We go elsewhere, usually ND. We are fully drain tiled, plowed wall to wall up here. The only good bird population we have left is the ruffed grouse, and they are on the down part of their ten year cycle.