Pigeons........... I had a rough night with them.

[12 Volt Man]

I was able to aquire 6 pigeons tonite from a guy I know that does pest control.

I lost one trying to get them from my carrier to the cage. It flew away.

Then, I was excited to try the training methods taught at the Dave Walker seminar that I attended a couple of weeks ago. I took Cowboy out for a training session with some pigeons.

It did not go well.

I led Cowboy in to the first one, he wasn't wanting to point it, more of a stalking, careful walk. I finally got him stopped with the check chord. He seemed to be holding his point well. We were a little ways off from the bird, so I went out ahead to flush it up. I had the pigeon carded. Cowboy got away from me and was able to catch the pigeon. It resulted in a tragic amputation of the pigeon's left leg. Cowboy tore it right off when he grabbed it up. On a positive note, he brought it back to me.

Not wanting to end the training session on a bad note, I carded up another pigeon. Got it planted and led Cowboy in to the wind toward the bird. Again, he did not want to point it at first scent. He was going in hard trying to get the bird. Again I got him stopped. Me trying to work the check chord, pinch collar and E-collar all at the same time was quite a circus. This time he stayed put untill I go the bird to fly. He was fine until it landed close by where he could see it. He got away from me again and scooped that pigeon up. Again, on a positive note, he brought it back to me. This pigeon seemed to have survived the ordeal.

Dave Walker was real big on being able to do this type of training on your own. I have decided that next time I will be using a helper.

Hopefully I didn't do any damage that can't be undone.

These pigeons were wild caught. They are either really young or almost starved to death. There is not much girth around their breasts and they seemed small.

Live and learn I guess.

[Toyman]

12 volt man.

Have you worked you dog on any "stand up - stand still" prior to working him on these pigeons? My take is not to work him into a point with the cc. It is ok if he flushes the bird. The bird should be carded in such a way so your dog can not catch the bird. You are not making him point...you are letting him point and this may take several times. There is actually a lot more to this method than you are describing. I am not the most knowledgeabe person but I use the West/Gibbons/Lindley method and there is a site that is dedicated to this method if you are interested in reading more and asking questions. I apoligize in advance if I did not understand what you were asking about in your post. ( I use launchers myself...1) the pigeons get caught in the trees where I train if I card...2) I can launch the pigeons if my dog does not stop.)

Toyman

[snips]

I`m not a "Westie" but I don`t like going back to working on pigeons after trained on quail. And, like Toyman said there is a good bit more to it, than described, I personally would not change midstream on what you have done with this dog. If you have a younger one to start it might be better to try it on him, but do your research on the exacts of the foundation.

[grant]

12V,

I've been working Kage on a launcher and pigeons. Last night I carded a pigeon and it worked well with the launcher... I just work him to the bird, he points, I go in and kick around.... If he breaks, I flush the bird. For me, the launcher works great when you’re by yourself. Have you tried one?

I also had a setback… The other day he saw a quail running and chased it. Now He started wanting to sight point. We’re almost worked out of that though…

Let us know how it goes…

[Small Munsterlander]

12 Volt: I have been using the West method for quite a few years and as Jere stated there are some subtleties. However, I think at this point you may find greater success by intigrating all the components you are attempting to work (CC, scollar, ecollar, carded bird) in less challenging situations. No matter what method folks use for training on birds there are two important factors. Control of the bird and the dog. Carded birds are a great substitute for those that don't have access to wild or numerous birds. But they have limitations and so does a trainer with their hands full of tools and an unsteady dog. Sometimes you need to crawl before you can walk. Coming off of Dave's seminar (which I'm sure was great and got you pumped up, as it should) you then might be wise to take a step back. I train 95% of the time by myself. This requires organization, planning and a solid understanding of what I wish to achieve on the day and what I and the particular dog can accomplish/handle.

When I am alone I rely a lot on the launcher(s) to aid in getting a bird up and outa there when the timing is right. I often use carded birds in combination with the launcher(s) BUT I am very careful to use carded birds AFTER I have seen some sense/willingness of steadiness voluntarily on the part of the dog. Despite all your frustration with losing training birds until you see this indication from your dog you are wise to accept you are going to use up/loose training birds. That is part of the price of training.

Also if you work adding at overlaying the ecollar on the scollar you will help develop YOUR skills needed to handle all the gear. I could be wrong here but I believe Dave using the ecollar (and is exceptionally knowledgeable with it) while a bird is still on the ground. West is much more cautious about this (and I believe rightfully so) because of the risk of the possible down side.

This is not an attempt to diminish your abilities but there is a learning curve. If you can get a training partner or help for a short while as you learn to manage all the equipment you will likely enjoy more success. One of the foundation stones of the West method is "go slow" (Bill said it in a much more memorable phrase than that but I can't remember it ).

You might also be wise to post your situation on the Yahoo site where Jere and (I believe you are also a member). Mo and a few others can also offer advice. Bill

[Maurice]

I`m not a "Westie" but I don`t like going back to working on pigeons after trained on quail. And, like Toyman said there is a good bit more to it, than described, I personally would not change midstream on what you have done with this dog. If you have a younger one to start it might be better to try it on him, but do your research on the exacts of the foundation.

Brenda you might not be a Westie but you certainly understand that there is more to the method than carded pigeons. Brenda's idea about doing research on the method is a good idea.

12 volt make sure the pigeons are strong and healthy before you work dogs on them. You can do it training alone but a helper sure makes it easier.


Depending on the area and type cover you have to train in should dictate what method is going to work best for you. If you are in good open country carded pigeons will work well. Toyman adapted and uses launchers but the foundation of the West method stays the same. Trees and heavy cover make carding pigeons real tough, I know because that is the conditions that I have to train in here in SC. everyday.

Mo

[mountaindogs]

[Trees and heavy cover make carding pigeons real tough, I know because that is the conditions that I have to train in here in SC. everyday.

Mo

Why are the pigeons tough to use in cover? I live and train in heavy cover and my biggest problem is crappy quail that won't fly far. The few wild quail hide in the biggest briar nests of thick 8 foot high solid stuff that I'd rather not put the young dogs in at first... I was hoping the pigeons would get up and fly better being more flight oriented birds? But I have not tried them yet... What has your experience been?

[Wagonmaster]

they are talking about tethered or carded pigeons, which can get hooked in trees, etc. there they hang and you can't get them down, or they can't get out of the stuff to start with.

[TAK]

Rob, I hope the bird without a leg is not the one for me!

Anyway, I think you missed a point or two on your approach... When you are working the birds you are letting Cowboy make your flush and correcting after he bumps the bird.
When Cowboy gets away from you it is your fault but if you remember Dave would wrap the CC in his hand preventing this. I know with your knee and I know Cowboy you need two wraps!

Mo does have a site that he runs. Talk of training just as we have learned, only thing they are not using the ecollar to teach as Dave does but rather to enforce the command.

[Toyman]

12V,
It only took me 1 time after carding a pigeon and it getting caught in the trees to "expand" my dog training and investigate the pigeon coop and homers. I now have enough (my wife says to many) pigeons to work my dog on and they all come back! I train by myself and that was the only way I was going to move on with my dog. This method works for me. If you really want to train with the silent method go to Maurice's site. There is some great advice and help and it is a "friendly" site.

Toyman

[Britmandogs]

12 Volt, when working carded pigeons you need to stay in control of the dog via the CC at all times. Take a carded pigeon tether it with a 8"x8" piece of cardboard and toss it in some cover where it will not get hung up. Bring the dog in cross wind about ten feet from the bird, as you work towards the bird move up the check cord. When you first start working the dog don't give him much of the CC, he needs to earn it. As the dog get closer to the bird, note he hasn't scented it, you move up the checkcord so you only have about three feet of CC left. When the dog hits scent you move up the CC right next to the dog and keep walking, the goal here is not to get the dog to point but to stop him from chasing. Now the dog has made scent you keep walking, the dog will come right with you but you have it real close with the CC, let the dog dive for the bird but keep ahold of the CC and prevent the dog from catching it, even if you have to restrain the dog and kick the bird up yourself, let the dog chase just a little as you hold the CC then stop him, stroke him up and lead him in the opposite direction.

This takes a little bit to get used to, but be patient it works well, just stay in control and try your best to not let the dog catch the bird.

[TAK]

12 Volt, when working carded pigeons you need to stay in control of the dog via the CC at all times. Take a carded pigeon tether it with a 8"x8" piece of cardboard and toss it in some cover where it will not get hung up. Bring the dog in cross wind about ten feet from the bird, as you work towards the bird move up the check cord. When you first start working the dog don't give him much of the CC, he needs to earn it. As the dog get closer to the bird, note he hasn't scented it, you move up the checkcord so you only have about three feet of CC left. When the dog hits scent you move up the CC right next to the dog and keep walking, the goal here is not to get the dog to point but to stop him from chasing. Now the dog has made scent you keep walking, the dog will come right with you but you have it real close with the CC, let the dog dive for the bird but keep ahold of the CC and prevent the dog from catching it, even if you have to restrain the dog and kick the bird up yourself, let the dog chase just a little as you hold the CC then stop him, stroke him up and lead him in the opposite direction.

This takes a little bit to get used to, but be patient it works well, just stay in control and try your best to not let the dog catch the bird.

Good Post!

[Britmandogs]

12 Volt, if you are at the point where you have the dog stopping and standing still and the dog will let you walk out in front, then plant a carded pigeon and bring the dog in up wind so he can't smell the bird. Make the dog stop and stand and walk out and flush the bird, remember to stay in control. This really helps to tighten a dog up. Remember to mix up the training to keep the dog guessing.