Butting heads with my springer

[BaxtersBuddy]

Hopefully someone here can give me some advice. I have a male springer who just turned one. I started training him for grouse and pheasant at about six months of age and am hoping he's ready by opener in a week.

Anyway, the problem is this. He's always been extremely obedient and eager to please. If he would get to far away while in the wood training or just walking, I'd give a signal, usually "whoe" and he would stop, turn, and come back. Then, two days ago I took him out for a routine practice hunt. He would constantly run off and completely ignore me when I commanded him to stop and when I called for him after he disappeared. He would be gone for 2 or 3 minutes at a time before he came back. I took him back out tonight and it was the same thing. This time it was a different area and he was gone for a good 5 minutes. I have no idea what brought this on or what to do about it. The hundred times I've taken him in the woods prior to this, he's been extremely obedient. Now this. I have no idea where this behavior came from. Any ideas on how to remedy this problem?

Thanks.

Sean B.

[BaxtersBuddy]

Another question I had was is it to late to start using a whistle on my springer. As I said, he's just over a year old and I've already trained him with verbal commands and hand signals. And, I suppose there are threads relating to this somewhere here, but is using a whistle better than verbal??? It seems like it would be easier to get his attention with a whistle than wearing out my voice shouting commands all the time.

[gonehuntin']

It's never too late to train them for anything, in fact he's just at a prime are now for training for everything. What you're seeing is a dog experiencing independence. Get him back on a cc. Remember that each time you give a command and he ignores you, he's beaten you. Dog one, trainer zero. He has to know that you can and will, get him anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

It's not a big deal, and every dog goes through it. This is where the ecollar can cut your training time considerably. What the dog is exhibiting to you is that he is not yet thoroughly trained. Back up, run him through your whole program again, and reinforce everything in the program at a distance.

[BaxtersBuddy]

So how exactly should I go about it? I've never used a shock collar before. When do I use it? When he first takes off and ignores my command am I supposed to jolt him? At what power should I start at and so on and so forth?

Thanks

Sean B

[crackerd]

Following on to GH's advice, an e-collar will rein in the dog but before using it on a spaniel, you should cultivate a questing or quartering pattern in your dog. Spaniels quarter naturally; what yours does is called "punching out" and it's the bane of hunting with a flushing dog.

No idea what "perfectly obedient" in your 100 other times in the woods means unless it's at your side. But that's not what you want with a flushing dog, either. Are you anywhere in the vicinity of a spaniel pro? Have you ever seen a spaniel FT or hunt test? The dogs quarter about 15 yards out front and 20 yards to either side of the handler (you). Their pattern draws them to and fro the guns in the line, which walk the field in step. Of course, that's not something you're likely to have whilst hunting. But once a spaniel establishes a quartering pattern, it carries over even if in a rougher configuration when hunting. Your dog's "punching out" nullifies what a flushing dog's designed for--putting up game in shooting range. If you can get up with a spaniel pro, or get a couple of helpers to act as "guns" walking alongside you, quartering can come rather easily to a dog, even at a year-old. The real obedience is in the hupping--steadiness to flush, shot and fall. That's where spaniels earn their merit badges.

MG

[gonehuntin']

I probably wouldn't have wasted by time with this question if I'd have known Crackered was going to chime in. He's the man for spaniels and has trained a bunch of different breeds of them. Listen to him. We train very similarly, but there are subtle differences. His is the brain to pick here.

[BaxtersBuddy]

Thanks for all the advice. This is my first dog and I guess I'm not to familiar with all the technical terms and things. By "obedient", I just meant that he listened to commands as far as getting to far out ahead and listening when I commanded him to come closer. He does a good job of circiling around to my right and left which is what I'm guessing quartering is. That was mostly natural for him.

I don't know any Springer trainers. I have taken him to a pheasant farm to use live birds on him. The owner there has trained some master class labs and german shorthairs but not springers. I figured I'd take him back out and let her help me as training and advice from her is free and I only pay for the birds.

Training is one of those things that the layperson like myself thinks will be a piece of cake. But, I'm learning that like anything else in life, to do it properly is gonna take a lot of learning on my part as well.

If you know of any good springer training books or dvd's I'd be happy to hear which ones.

Thanks

Sean B

[crackerd]

Sean, advice on this and other boards is free too and most of the time you're getting what you pay for. But one invaluable bit is to find a spaniel pro and consult with him, even if it's by phone. Training is a "piece of cake" only if you interpet "training" as letting the dog flush some birds and (possibly) retrieve them. True training of any gundog, but especially retrievers, is blood, sweat and tears. For spaniels, it's a lot less investment; you train them young, you've trained them for life. Because really all you're asking of them is to display their natural abilities with the flourish of steadiness. If you're even requiring steadiness--that would be about 1/10th of 1 percent in my experience.

The Brits wrote the book(s) on spaniel training (see Mike Smith recommendation in the Boykin thread) but they have been overshadowed by US pros' methods, the teaching of quartering (which is sort of "running around" but much more) foremost amongst them. The reason is, pros train for competition and competitive spaniel tests are all down to flushing birds in range of guns so the dogs can get a retrieve and be judged on it as well as on their steadiness and style. That's what produces a winner in US field trials. Just so you know: The winner in our trials often comes from upwards of 100 dogs while British trials run a dozen dogs, tops, and it's as if time stood still in 1930 when they're run. Not that there's anything wrong with that--they have to display the same steadiness and the same zest for retrieving, just not in such a high-octane way as American spaniels.

So find a pro, confer with him, and let the takeaway be how to train your dog. After that, if you should find training to be a "piece of cake," it's only so because you bask in the training and, most likely, the dog does too. Some (trainers) do, most don't--mileage and enthusiasm may vary. Most gundog owners are downright allergic to training, in fact, which accounts for the relatively vast number of US pros in all three gundog disciplines. Conversely, pro trainer is an all but unknown occupation in the UK. Retriever trainers--both pro and amateur alike--are absolutely ecstatic in going at it. But invariably, it's because they also understand, "Train the dog, it ain't going to train itself."

MG