FF issues.

[12 Volt Man]

Hey folks.

Looking for a little help here. Cowboy will be a year old this month. He has not been a reliable retriever for me. He will chase anything thrown for him. Sometimes he will pick it up. If he does, he will bring it back and drop it when he gets within about 10 feet of me. This is all new for me because Cooper was a natural retriever from the beginning. Coop would play fetch all day if I wanted him to. Most of Cowboy's issues are caused by me. I admit I did not spend the same amount of time that I did with Cooper while Cowboy was smaller. I am in no rush, I just would like to have him ready to go by the fall hunting and trial season.

Last night I watched Grant's force fetch videos. I decided I would try to force fetch Cowboy. He is one hard headed dog. I took a bumper held it near his mouth and gave the fetch command. ......no interest. Then I opened his mouth and made him hold the bumper. He fought it most of the time. I had to hold his mouth around it. While doing this I tried to comfort him and gave the "hold" command. Then after a bit, then gave a "leave it" command and let him release the bumper to me. We did this several times.

That was all fine. Then I decided I would add the E-collar to the program. Problem is, at this point I need another hand. I takes two hands to hold the bumper and make him open his mouth and one to work the E-collar. Then I decided to try an ear pinch. I pinched part of his ear against the buckle of the collar. He didn't seem bothered by it even when I felt like I was pinching pretty hard. No matter what I did, he would not grab that bumper on his own. I had to pry open is mouth each time. I think that I can make the ear pinch work by my self, but I am leaning towards getting someone to help me with the E-collar.

I am hoping for some suggestions so that I don't screw this up.

[ezzy333]

I haven't gone this route with RRush yet but was thinking I may need to also. It is my understanding that he may take several sessions for him to take it and hold it without actually forcing it into the mouth. I would think that would be an appropriate time schedule though. I'll look forward to some opinions from the people with experience.


Ezzy

[Ayres]

I just started FF with Justus. He's got a clamping issue (didn't like to let go of a frozen bird last time) so I knew we'd have to do it.

What I've done is to say 'fetch' and open his mouth. When I have the bumper in his chops (make sure he's not biting down on his own lips... pull them back out of the way when you remove your off-hand) then I praise him with 'good fetch!' and stroke his ears. With my right hand I keep his head held high and sometimes wrap my thumb around to hold his mouth closed, though I haven't been needing to do that lately. When he quits fighting and gagging on the bumber, I say 'out' and remove it.

That's as far as I've gotten thus far, I'm still working with my trainer on it. I'm to the point where Justus will open his mouth slightly when I say 'fetch,' so we're just about ready to go to the next step.

I'll provide an update when we get there...

[larue]

you are playing with fire,,,with the e-collar,,,,,
and you are jumping way too many steps in truely force retrieveing a dog...also the dog is very young for this type of pressure,,
and my next question would be to ask if the dog is broke to wing and shot..,,force retreieveing takes away from steadiness,,
so it works better for the dog to be broke first...
i would seek out a guy who has force retrieved a number of dogs...
and learn from him....

[snips]

I always get the dog comfortable and relaxed holding a dumbell before applying the fetch part, or pain. You might read my article here on Grants board. Some dogs take a couple of days on the ear pinch to really start responding, their ear will get a little tender. Then you will get better response on grabbing the dumbell. I agee that using the collar is playing with fire. You cannot rush each step, and each step is progressing a little at a time. FF is alot of stress and CANNOT be rushed.

[ezzy333]

I don't understand the conflict with being steady and having the dog fetch on command. Explzin that more fully if you would.

Ezzy

[QCBirddogs]

I agree wiht LArue, I wait till I break adog beforeI FF them.......I alos never allow them to have a bird in their mouth prior to the training......

I also dont go as fast as you did either......I have FFed many dogs and I would be happy to go through he process one step at a time for you.....

I dont agree with multiple commands either...IE. Fetch hold, jsut like sit stay. WHen I introduce the e collar it is definetly not on the neck!


It will take a while but and We could stop for questions on the way....


Up to you.....

Phil
REO

[12 Volt Man]

Good points. I have always thought that retrieve training and bird work could be trained seperately. With Cooper, he was a retrieving fool before he worked hard on birds. I will put FF on the shelf for a while. Untill I have some more solid bird work.

On another note. I had both dogs out in the field next to my house. I normally work with them seperately. Cowboy had his check chord on so I could step on it if needed. I think Cowboy learned quite a bit by watching Cooper. He made some nice long retrieves. An brought them back to within 3 feet of me every time before he dropped them. I think that I may go a different route than FF and try to encourage him more to bring it to my hand.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Oh and Phil,
I may take you up on that step by step offer later this summer. If he ends up needing it. Your help would be much appreciated.


Ok, I after further thought something a couple of you mentioned now begs me to ask a question.

You say that you don't normally FF a dog until he is broke. What is generally considered a "broke" dog? To me a retrieve to hand would be included in the definition of a broke dog. Do I misunderstand it?

TAK has told me that Cooper is broke better than 90% of the dogs at the trials. I never really thought he was "broke" till he said that.

[Ayres]

I'll concur with the SLOW remark. The rule of thumb my trainer told me was three good attempts per training session, then quit for the day. You do it as long as it takes, and can't move on to the next step until he's got the previous step down pat.

Definately not a command you can see actual results with within a week, like woah or something. I've been working with Justus for a week and we're just now ready to start pinching the ear.

My concern after reading a couple more posts though, is that I don't know that Justus is steady to wing and shot. I take him out on a line of bird releases, and he points and holds, and when I say woah he freezes. Usually I walk up, style his tail up a bit (only usually have to do that on the first bird) and slip two fingers under his collar. Then my trainer kicks around and flushes the bird. Sometimes on the first bird of the session he'll attempt (slightly) to bolt at it, but the following birds he just stands there and watches them flush. My trainer says he's progressed very rapidly and will end up scoring high marks and is now to the point where we need to start force fetch since the next thing to do with birds is shoot one. [During in the process of force fetch, he sees no birds whatsoever.] Would you agree that it's the time to start force fetch... I mean, by your definition is he "broke?" Or do you shoot birds for your dogs before you force break them?

[Ayres]

TAK has told me that Cooper is broke better than 90% of the dogs at the trials. I never really thought he was "broke" till he said that.

I think our confusion comes with the word 'broke.' All our lives we're taught to not break things, then we're told that our dogs need to be broke.

[snips]

I too like to have a dogs bird work in place before FFing. I want them confident in what they are doing on birds. I like to kill a few birds over a dog before I ff, but you don`t have to. I just like seeing what a dog is about first. I like to encourage them to retrieve naturally, and to just give them a feel for what you want. I always want a dog to be at least a yr old before FFing.

[Ayres]

Ah, I think that answers my Q Brenda. My trainer, when deciding it was time to FF, went off my recommendation that it will need to be done and what I told her about how Justus had clamped down hard on a frozen bird and wouldn't give it up (growled and the such). Also, he's just over a year old now, so I think I'm good on both counts. Well that makes me feel better.

[Casper]

After reading everyones comments on this subject I feel everyone is going in the wrong direction. A few of you mention that FF should be done after pup is BROKE. Lets not forget that Cowboy is still a pup and will be for a while. The way I look at it if you want a reliable retreive then treat pup as if he is a retreiver.
Start slow in the hallway of your home (or in his kennel) :shock: with something that will peak the dogs interest. Show it to him then throw it just far enough that he will chase. If pup picks it up with lots of exitment tell him how good he is. If he drops it stop all verbal praise. If he leaves it go and get it and start all over but say nothing to pup till he picks up the thrown object. Make just a few throws twice daily till his interest grows then 4 or 5 but stop as soon as pup wants more keeping him from from losing interest. Always coax pup back to you never demand it (a short check cord will help with this). When he is next to you give him lavish praise quietly (don't take the object from him right away). After a moment of praise put your hand on the object and say your release command. If he gives it up right away toss it at that instant, that is pups reward for doing what you want. If he doesnt with your other hand "squeeze" the spine just in front of his hind legs, this spot is very tender.
Always keep it fun.
As for the FF I feal that is for a dog that is a good retriever but is sloppy with his retreive. Like most of you know an E-collor is for enforcing what pup already knows a FF falls on the same guideline.
I have done this with some labs both mine and other peoples and has worked well for me, my current a GSP likes to retreive as much if not more than my lab.
Hunt em up

[Birdhunter1]

I guessI do thigns differently. My dogs see it as a moajr honor and like they won the prize of all prizes when they get to bring me something I've shot.
I usually carry something they get when a bird gets brought back, and they always get scratched behind the ears and their bellies rubbed when they bring one back. Of course I am a softy so all of them get some kind of reward for escorting the other dog back with the retrieve. For some reason when one dog brings somethign back they all hae to come back like they have done something, and yes I have gotten a head from a bird and a body from two dogs and the same bird.

I don't exactly know what Force fetch means but with mine I make it fun to bring a bird back to me and in four years with this bunch I have lost two birds. One fell in the middle of a river that they wouldn't go in after and the other got ate. Long story on the eaten bird but let's just say there was a lot of confusion, it was a long hard hunt and the dog was hungry.

[Ayres]

Casper, I think your post does a good job at outlining how to bring out the natural retrieval instincts of a dog. It's for when FF is not needed.

I did start out with Justus when he was just a few weeks old and did start throwing toys in a hallway and the such. If he brought them back, he was running full blast at me all excited and not even thinking about the retrieve. Lots of times, though, he thought it better to just get the toy and play keep-away. Then, because he is not a retriever and is first and foremost a pointing breed, that was priority for training.

I would like to know how you view FF as an enforcement and not a method of teaching? I mean, do you believe all dogs should have their natural retrieving ability coaxed out of them and taught commands before beginning FF? If that's the case, why FF at all if the dog is going to fetch naturally?

I guess I've just heard so much that a lot of dogs likely will need to be FF'd and you're lucky if the dog retreives naturally. It sure seems to me that most of the dogs I've seen have been FF'd.

[TAK]

Slow down Pal! I am no force fetch Goorue. I have done it and I will say I will keep sending my dogs out to someone that enjoys it. I don't.....
Ok about this Cooper dog, Pointer at that! Just how many beers did I have in me when I said that????? LOL
No Coop is a nice dog and just a baby! He is only over a year aint he....
I think if you keep Cowboy and FF him yourself I know alot of people here can help you. Or you can take the easy way out and pay for it!

[larue]

ok,,some definitions first,,,a broke dog is a dog who will stand on point, throughout wing,shot and fall,,and throughout his bracemates wing shot and fall,,,master level work...
Most dogs will start to anticipate retrieves,and will start to go early,
sometime during the killing portion of breaking the dog...
When you force retrieve a dog,,you are telling the dog to retrieve
so in most cases your steadiness gets worse,,during this time..
so when a dog understands the steadiness first it is easier to inforce it,once he starts to anticipate and break...

Force retrieveing is a training tech,that insures a dog will complete a retrieve even when he does not want to...it does not rely on
a dogs desire,,but on trained obedeiance...
A truely force retrieved dog will retrieve anything when sent...
If you run in navhda you will force retrieve your dog,,as any misshandling of a bird is an failure for the entire test...

[Birdhunter1]

I've just never had to do the force fetch thing. All I have done is what I mentioned above and all of them have brought stuff back. I started all of them doing this failry young I did use a checkcord on one but it wasn't on him long before he had it figured out.

I guess I should say I don't field trial dogs and probably never will, I just hunt with mine and I work with them so they will hunt the way I want them too.

[12 Volt Man]

ok,,some definitions first,,,a broke dog is a dog who will stand on point, throughout wing,shot and fall,,and throughout his bracemates wing shot and fall,,,master level work.

Ok so a "broke" dog does not include the retrieve then?

Maybe that is where the term "finished" comes in???

............just wondering.

[grant]

Brenda's FF article is here:

http://www.gundogforum.com/index.php?page=articles

[Maurice]

Brenda that is a good article on your force fetch method. Have you changed anything about it now?

Maurice

[snips]

I have condensed some things. It`s still, I believe the best way for a person that just wants some guidelines for doing their own dog, it takes them thru all the stages. Probably the biggest change I have made is on the Hold. I spend only 1 day on it. The first day I spend on getting the dog to accept it in their mouth, and relax holding it until I say Give. The second day I start the ear-pinch and fetch part. From then on I reinforce hold each time they grab it, at the same time I stroke their head and praise them for holding. When they get to the point of picking it up off the table they are understanding Hold enough to turn and start walking a few steps holding it. If, at that point it is dropped I correct it with a ear-pinch which they already know it means to grab it. It condenses the 2 steps, but still enables them to learn both. Of course I use a table all the time now, too hard on the `ol back without it. If I was only doing 1 dog tho I could do without it. The timetable of doing dogs for other people makes me condense several steps, but you still have to cover all bases.

[grant]

Bell was the my first and only dog I’ve FFd. I’ve learned more since I did the videos, so I need to redo them once I get time. Obviously I’m not a pro, but I report stuff that works for me; stuff that I’ve learned from the pros.

I started FF with the e-collar because I saw it done on a tape. After seeing Brenda do it at a seminar and reading her article, I used the ear pinch. After that, I won’t go back to the e-collar method. Mainly because you can apply the exact amount of pressure to the dog that is needed. With an e-collar, its harder to tell the exact pressure you applying to the dog. Also, in a field trial, you can’t use a collar, so if you’ve used ear pinch, you can correct the dog. In a trial when Bell’s become a bit unruly, I’ve reset her by grabbing her collar and at the same time giving an ear pinch. To anyone else, it just looks like your correcting your dog with a reposition. Basically a gentle touch of the ear and she knows to get her act together.

I started Bell on FF because she started munching birds at about 1.5yrs. She’d walk back with the bird, so she could munch as long as possible. Now, after FF, the bitch hauls tail on the retrieves. She’s become completely reliable on retrieving and loves every bit of it. I’m a believer in FF. I’ll wait a good while before I do Kage; if I do him at all.

[TAK]

ok,,some definitions first,,,a broke dog is a dog who will stand on point, throughout wing,shot and fall,,and throughout his bracemates wing shot and fall,,,master level work.

Ok so a "broke" dog does not include the retrieve then?

Maybe that is where the term "finished" comes in???
............just wondering.

More so than anything else is what game you play in. NSTRA has there jargin and AKC has theres.
When I judged you, Broke ment Steady to the shot. If I was to judge a AKC trial broke would be steady through the kill.

Broke and finished is the same thing in my book. One person may say they break a dog and the other they finished the dog. Trained Retrieve/Force Fetch.......

[larue]

tak,I call a steady to flush dog a staunch dog,,,
most hunters are very happy wity a staunch dog...
Nstra has its own definitions,,as they only judge to the flush attempt...in all other formats,,akc,,af,navhda,,afcta,
a broke dog will not move unless commanded to once it establish's point..as far as retreiveing,,the af events have no such thing as a retrieve...a finished pointer,for an af trial,,never has to retrieve a bird...
The term broke comes from breaking a dog from chasing birds..
so when you have a broke dog,,you have a dog who no longer chases birds,,,ie stays on point,,until commanded to move..

[grant]

FWIW, there's an article in PDJ on the broke issue. I'll see if I can't read/post it today...

Grant

[QCBirddogs]

FF'ing methodsa are similar in many ways.......

I dont think the Hold command should eb used at all though.....Fetch means one thing, why add another word?

THe biggest problem I see in many methods is making the transition form the table to the ground........I.E.

You have taught the dog to fetch by an ear pinch....when the ttransition goes to the ground.......most go to an e collar on the neck or another command to reinforce the command. Why change methods and use yet another jolt on the neck!?

I use another way which is not confusing to the dog and doesnt teach him if he balks you have to come get him and pinch his ear.

Secondly......many think FF ttraining teaches the dog to retrive....it doesnt do that at all, it just sows him how to pick up what he has seen fall and bring it back to you......retrieve training is yet another thing all together.

Phil
REO

[grant]

IMO, For me, the hold command was the most important part of my trained retrieve process. Bell never had a problem with the idea of retrieving. But, when the object was a bird, she would pause/walk on the way back to munch. The hold processes allowed me to communicate with her to not only pick it up fast, but to return it fast with no munching. If she ever munches, I can command hold and it stops as she’s on her way in. So, for me, the FF process using hold worked. Just another view I guess...

[snips]

I think the definition of retrieve is to go get what is thrown and bring it back.

[Maurice]

Of course I use a table all the time now, too hard on the `ol back without it. If I was only doing 1 dog tho I could do without it. The timetable of doing dogs for other people makes me condense several steps, but you still have to cover all bases.

Thanks Brenda. I know what you mean about the table and your back. I do most of my dogs on the table too. I prefer the toe hitch, learned that way 1st. I do finish it with the ecollar now and like the results doing it that way. I don't use the low continuous with the ecollar but prefer the nick mode.

Maurice