Can a point be lost?

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Hey all,

When I picked up my pup last Sept. The kennel had showed me how well the little guys pointed on wing with a pole.

I trained with the usual wing on a pole for just a bit..but if he was pointing on sight.. then there was no use for the wing/pole right?

Ok,

So then winter hit in MN and boy was it a LONG one..

I got out as soon as the weather let me.. As I got back into the field and with the launchers we would work the field around the "CONE" of scent and when he would get a little of the scent i would keep moving around and slowly get closer and closer and closer until he was close enough to the launcher and definatly had scent or at least sight.. (Which I dont know is good or bad)
Then I would "WHOA" him.. and he knows what WHOA means.. and then I will approach him. Hold his neck and hind area.. we release the bird.. it's shot and then I use a command and let him go.. He retrieves and brings back.. so thats my routine now.

I have been, "Launching the bird" when he would flinch or move. I guess my question summed up is.

Should I hold his tail and mold his point position while i have him in whoa before I launch the bird? It seems like he's not pointing at all when I whoa him when he gets close to the launcher? He is definatly still. Will it just come back with time?

Any info would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks

Michael & Odin

[natetnc]

when he would get a little of the scent i would keep moving around and slowly get closer and closer and closer until he was close enough to the launcher and definatly had scent or at least sight.. (Which I dont know is good or bad)
Then I would "WHOA" him.. and he knows what WHOA means.. and then I will approach him. Hold his neck and hind area.. we release the bird.. it's shot and then I use a command and let him go.. He retrieves and brings back.. so thats my routine now.

I have been, "Launching the bird" when he would flinch or move. I guess my question summed up is.

Should I hold his tail and mold his point position while i have him in whoa before I launch the bird? It seems like he's not pointing at all when I whoa him when he gets close to the launcher? He is definatly still. Will it just come back with time?

it may be me but i found this post difficult to read. are you saying you move him into the cone and then allow him to creep until he is in sight of the bird/launcher then whoa him only to physically restrain him, release the bird and allow him to get the bird? second part i don't understand, are you launching when he "flinch or move" after he catches scent or after you whoa/physically restrain him?

my info on basic launcher training. i have always been taught to bring the dog into the cone, when the dog catches scent and contiues to move/creep, pop the laucher. do not give the whoa command, let the dog think he popped it by moving in. in your method i think you are unintentionally inducing the dog to creep which will be a problem if you plan to hunt wild birds.

[PntrRookie]

Should I hold his tail and mold his point position while i have him in whoa before I launch the bird? It seems like he's not pointing at all when I whoa him when he gets close to the launcher? He is definatly still. Will it just come back with time?

Here is what I did with my pup...Let me preface this by stating that I am in NO way a trainer nor do I have a ton of experience...it is just what has worked for me. No hands on the pup till I did yard whoa work...and keep as quiet as possible and let the pup figure it out. We also had a long winter here in WI.

I let HER figure out why the bird was flying away. I did not say ANYTHING. I did not style her up or put hands on her. By you controlling the situation and putting your hands on her is just throwing more distractions into the process. I would step back...let the pup run and figure out where the launcher is (hopefully by scent not sight)...when he moves in on it, launch the bird and let it fly away. Do NOT say anything. Keep doing this and the pup will learn that he is the reason the bird is flying away. Once he figures it out keep doing it and let him stand there as long as he will. Keep quiet...let him chase to keep the drive...do not let him catch them. Once you have done this for days, weeks, months maybe...proceed back to whoa yard/bench work...then do it on the ground with a checkcord...then back to the birds and again keep quiet, but if he moves say whoa and launch the bird...hopefully if the whoa work is done he will stay there.

Again, I am sure there are others that will pipe in to help out...

As far as style is concerned...do not worry about it and I would keep my hands off the pup until you have him standing birds on his own. His style will be there, especially with the nice intensity of a great point.

[kninebirddog]

with the launcher when a dog hits the scent and goes on point..then releases to work their way closer launch that bird...do not allow the dog to work their way up a straight line and get on top of the launcher and bird

then as for when you get closer..I do the rick smith method where I will walk up and gently and quietly take the dog by the collar with one hand and with the other hand will place my hand under the flank area...No words and only if the dog tries to move will I lift up on the hind end to stop forward motion there is no styling or nothing else..this excersise is to teach a point of contact which will be used in the future plus also get the dog used to you being there and standing still with birds flying off

this also goes back to the yard work and table work that I have been working with the dog and that is when i am close or my hands are on the dog for the dog to be still ..as anytime you need to ahve or be around your dog having a dog being still makes for easier brushing nail clipping checking ears pointing petting feeding...etc

[zzweims]

You went from a wing on a string, to holed up for the winter, to messing with launchers/whoa/styling up/etc.? Has this pup never been allowed to figure out for himself where the scent cone is/moving makes birds fly/style is what God gave him, not you? He didn't lose his point. He just hasn't been given the opportunity yet to find it.

If it were my pup, I'd dump him out in a big field littered with wild or liberated birds, pop in my iPod and either kick back on the tail gate to watch, or follow along SILENTLY from a great DISTANCE.

If you don't have wild or can't afford to buy and release several hundred birds for him, then enter him in Junior Hunter, stick around afterward and/or come back the next day and let him rip out all the leftover birds. Then repeat at the next test. Best use of the $25 entry fee (where else can you train on that many birds for so little?) and after four times, you might even end up with a title

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[Sharon]

Oh yes. I've seen the point lost many times on this forum.

[topher40]

Should I hold his tail and mold his point position while i have him in whoa before I launch the bird?


Michael & Odin

Whatever position your dog locks up on is his "pointing position." There isnt any reason to mess with his head or tail. You will cause your dog to lose focus and staunchness on his birds, always waiting for you to put your hands on him before he sees the bird. If the dog doesnt point with his tail and head up to look like a painting every time thats ok, fooling with his "style" isnt going to give him any. He got all the style he will ever have from his dam and sire. Sorry, its a pet peave of mine. Looks like some other folks are giving you some good advice on here so I will let them take care of the rest!

[mtlee]

If the dog doesnt point with his tail and head up to look like a painting every time thats ok, fooling with his "style" isnt going to give him any. He got all the style he will ever have from his dam and sire. Sorry, its a pet peave of mine. :

Calm down now, you know how us pointer people get spoiled with all the style our dogs have!! Dealing with all that style...its tough but somebody has to do it!

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

hey all,

Thanks for all the input. Well Natetnc.. I can understand that sometimes I clump words together to make my ideas a little harder to read/understand, but Unlike a large majority of people on here... I can at least spell my words correctly.. Mispellings are what make posts hard to read in MY opinion. What shape is a cone? if you take the shape of a cone, make it ONE dimensional and lay it on top a map of a field..The TIP of the cone is where your bird launcher is. The widest part of the cone is the end of the scent trail. ( IN THEORY ) there's your cone of scent. I don't just walk him in the cone. I keep him going past the scent at closer and closer intervals. I watch my dogs reaction IF and WHEN he either picks up a bit of scent.. so that he starts understanding.. OH that smell again.. I know what that is..

When i whoa him.. he will and does stop. I'll slowly walk up to him and if he flinches Ill blow the bird.. If he doesn't move I'll get down and hold him.. launch the bird.. shoot and there ya go. ( IF he moves on whoa, I blow the bird. I reset him and command it again.. then throw a bumber, pop the gun and he retrieves the bumber. )

I don't see this as being too TUFF to read...So hopefully I explained myself a bit better this time. Thanks for all your input fella's.

Howie,

I've grouse hunted since I was young and never used a dog for grouse hunting.. It was hard enough for me to get through all the thick brush. Having a dog with me would be more than awesome. I would hit up the Mine pits, the trails and wooded bluff area. My dog is still young and between college.. working 7 day work weeks.. and trying to keep the house clean plus have a life.. Im not worrying about him... We are just taking our time.. I really could care less about dressing my dog up in Ribbons.. I care about my dog getting a chance to have a Great life-being a dog.. and learning something along the way.


Alright guys... Thanks again for the input.

Mikey & Odin

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Good one Sharon.. That gave me a laugh for sure.

also.......

Im not chewing on anybody or anything like that. '

I live in a small town... There is a game farm just outside of town I go to frequently lately. There is a state park with wild birds and tweety's.. and there is also a ton of buddies farm land we have gone to. Also a ton of guys who are diligent in Pheasants forever that release birds.. I have A LOT of areas we've gone to these 10 months. Odin has had free reign of all this land. I've just gotten him back into the field work since the snow has gone. I have been using the Rick Smith approach (which is new to me) when we've been using launchers. So after a winter like we had, these ARE the restarts of Training we had worked on last fall. Like I said before when they were pups they would point on sight. Im not worried about how his point looks, I just want him to know to stop when he smells something. Realizing there could be a bird there and not to move. He does go bucky on the check cord, it seemed like the other day when he got sent he moved hard toward the scent and I didn't think he was going to stop till his nose was ontop of the launcher.
So now I'm at the point of training where the, "point" is what I'm working on. He see's birds in the back yard and will stalk them around.. bunnies stuff like that.. we work fields on walks.. on free runs.. and in training. So I'll just keep up what I'm doing. it's only a matter of time before he realizes why birds are flying away and that he knows Whoa, he will start to understand why he shouldnt be moving.

oh well.. my brain hurts.. thanks again everybody.

Mikey & Odin

[kninebirddog]

if you have him on a check cord..and he is making a beeline to the bird..stop him don't say anything stop his forward motion

everytime he is allowed to get on top of the bird you training him to get on top of a bird

what you allow a dog to to you train a dog to do

now when you stop him from the point of Scent contact don't just let him lean in to the check cord either stop forward motion then release stop forward motion release till he is standing there


thing you want to stop is the dog zooming on top of the launcher

many dogs that get a lot of wing on a string aren't happy till the see what they are pointing so you ahve to work further down wind so when he changes direction right toward the bird Stop him there ...he needs to learn that scent is where he is to point not right on top

that is where many release birds are handled wrong and people blame release birds for the dogs bad manners on them the dog learns to crowd them because they have been allowed to crowd them

[natetnc]

we would work the field around the "CONE" of scent

there are various ways to work them into a cone, i was confused as to how you worked them around the cone

and when he would get a little of the scent i would keep moving around and slowly get closer and closer and closer until he was close enough to the launcher and definatly had scent

i have never heard of a method where you keep moving around after the dog has gotten a little scent to make sure he has definitely gotten scent, didn't know if you were in a straight line to the launcher or what, again confusing to me, in a later post you did explain the zig zag pattern within the cone toward the launcher

Then I would "WHOA" him.. and he knows what WHOA means.. and then I will approach him. Hold his neck and hind area.. we release the bird.. it's shot and then I use a command and let him go.. He retrieves and brings back.. so thats my routine now.

I have never heard of putting hands on the dog like that, apparently others have, i have only heard of using a check cord with it sometimes wrapped around the flank. i am fairly new to this, thats why i had the disclaimer at the begining "it may just be me.....".

I have been, "Launching the bird" when he would flinch or move.

earlier you said you would let him get scent and then move in? if you popped the bird because he didn't follow the whoa command then that is only reinforcing the whoa command, don't need birds for that.


just didn't understand your methodology, i was asking for more info, guess it wasn't difficult to read but difficult to understand exactly what you were doing.

So I'll just keep up what I'm doing. it's only a matter of time before he realizes why birds are flying away and that he knows Whoa, he will start to understand why he shouldnt be moving.

guess it really didn't matter anyway.

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

you got it.

[Windyhills]

Mikey I think there are different ways to handle this.

I've been taught to keep my mouth shut and let the dog work birds silently for the most part. They aren't learning what they need to learn if you are giving them commands around birds before they stop on their own.

I have no problems at all with a pup taking a bird out, i.e. rushing in without pointing. Just pop the launcher as soon as the dog recognizes scent and moves toward the bird.

I don't stop the pup then until AFTER the flush or the launcher. Again, no messing with the dog's mind when it's working a bird. I want the pup to learn it's actions caused that bird it wants to fly away.

Now if the pup points and holds that point long enough for me to walk up to it, I try to come at the pup from the front rather than behind it. As the pup gets some experience in pointing, I'll say whoa then and I like to get my hands on pups, it IMO can reassure them that they are doing the right thing as much or more than any words can if you do it right. But if at any point pup takes a step toward the bird or more, I pop the launcher.

Only other thing I'd say is that most people here have little to no experience with LM's. But I bet your breeder has a lot of knowledge and suggestions for training that has worked for them. If you aren't talking to them, I'd start doing that.

Hope that helps...

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Thanks,

Yeah I keep in contact with my breeder.. they help a lot. They just have a lot on there plate at the moment and aren't too good at returning emails very quick lately. I will call them soon.

Thanks for the tips..

Mikey & Odin

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

I didn't dissect your posts, but you are whoaing the dog to standing his birds, he isn't pointing. I wouldn't use launchers, but LIGHTLY dizzied pigeons, if he moves in too close the bird flies. Launchers can make some dogs recoil at minimum and can get them cowering or blinking. I don't know about the hundreds of birds post, but a few hard flying jumpy quail will get the dog to learn HE is making the birds flush. He is getting scent, wanting to barge in, as he as gotten used to seeing the bird, so you whoa him. He needs to learn from the birds and become confident in his nose, where he learns the differences in old scent, actual scent of body and breath, and learns to handle birds. I'd use pigeons or hard flying pen quail, let him hunt, no hacking from you, let him learn to point and hold. The more you talk to him, grab his rear end, touch him, takes away from his confidence and puts focus on everything but where it should be.

I don't see a reason to say whoa, the birds will teach the dog to whoa. Once he starts pointing, let him just point and point, when he does rush in, bird should flush. He will need to learn to hold his point naturally. If he does jump in, stay quiet. Most people react by yelling whoa, whoa, whoa, or hollering at the dog. He isn't gonna whoa when he jumps in, he's only thinking birds. Your teaching him to ignore you and tune you out.

If checkcording, bring him in downwind CROSSWIND of the scent cone. He'll get slammed by scent and not eased into the scent. There should be no question to him that he has scent!!

Get him pointing and holding, then worry about further training.

[Sharon]

I'm reading all of these post and thinking , "Did I miss something?"

I let my pup chase planted pigeons. I didn't say anything.

One day he started creeping. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed for a minute. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed long enough for me to get in front and flush the bird. I didn't say anything.

Now I started to stroke him up a little and use a long, loose check cord as there would be no more chasing.

At 10 months she was broke and hasn't moved since.

Probably I was lucky but we humans have a way of making things so complicated.

LET THE DOG LEARN! STAY OUT OF IT AS MUCH A POSSIBLE. Our job is to provide a learning environment - the truck, the gas, the birds, the field LOL You know what I mean.

[ezzy333]

One of the major problems I see with so many people is training becomes the end game when they have a dog and many of the trialers have promoted that concept possibly unintentionally. To me the dog learns to hunt and we try to refine it to the level we want the dog to at. This is what I basically call manners. I have never actually trained a dog to hunt but rather give it the opportunity to hunt. The dog learns to point on its own, and it normally will learn to hold those points without much help from me. I can sometimes speed the process up a little but by and large when you get to fooling with natural ability you may be doing more damage that good. That is why the professional can do things better and faster due to their experience and also being able to read the dog better. It is normal for dog owners and kids parents to make excuses for them and expect less and we get wha we expect.

The best advice I could give any one is buy a good puppy and give it a chance to do what it has been bred to do with as little help in the first year as possibe. As the owner spend your time teaching house and yard rules and let the dog do the field things. After a year or so we can evaluate what each pup needs to improve its performance and that is when the field training takes place. We do try real hard to make everything real difficult. I think it is a way to convince ourselves and other people we are better than most at these doggy things and thats why our dogs arew so good. Truth is most is just plain experience and hopefully you gave the dog a chance to get it.

Ezzy

[Grouse Dog Guy]

I'm reading all of these post and thinking , "Did I miss something?"

I let my pup chase planted pigeons. I didn't say anything.

One day he started creeping. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed for a minute. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed long enough for me to get in front and flush the bird. I didn't say anything.

Now I started to stroke him up a little and use a long, loose check cord as there would be no more chasing.

At 10 months she was broke and hasn't moved since.

Probably I was lucky but we humans have a way of making things so complicated.

LET THE DOG LEARN! STAY OUT OF IT AS MUCH A POSSIBLE. Our job is to provide a learning environment - the truck, the gas, the birds, the field LOL You know what I mean.

Wow, I didn't know Canadiennes were so smart, best advice I've seen in this thread so far! Shut up and keep your hands off, let the pup be a pup.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Grouse Dog, I agree, let the pup be a pup. OK, so what does that mean to a new trainer? You flat can't tell someone that and expect it to be the end of advice. He(meaning most owners) don't have a clue HOW to let the pup be a pup. New owners have to have pictures drawn for them on most topics. Exactly why I tried to explain what to do, more than "let the pup be a pup".

Ezzy seems the bottom line to your advice might just be...just don't mess them up! Mama and daddy, if well bred, should put everything into them they need. We start dinking around with them, thinking we're training and we put 'em on a ton of birds, and they're flagging, we put out a ton of birds, and they won't range, we tell them whoa, and they're flagging, we yell at them when they bust, and they don't want to point, we shoot over them before they are ready, and they're gunshy, we put SIT on them, and they sit on point. Let pup be a pup means do't mess them up more than about anything.

[Sharon]

I'm reading all of these post and thinking , "Did I miss something?"

I let my pup chase planted pigeons. I didn't say anything.

One day he started creeping. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed for a minute. I didn't say anything.

One day he pointed long enough for me to get in front and flush the bird. I didn't say anything.

Now I started to stroke him up a little and use a long, loose check cord as there would be no more chasing.

At 10 months she was broke and hasn't moved since.

Probably I was lucky but we humans have a way of making things so complicated.

LET THE DOG LEARN! STAY OUT OF IT AS MUCH A POSSIBLE. Our job is to provide a learning environment - the truck, the gas, the birds, the field LOL You know what I mean.

Wow, I didn't know Canadiennes were so smart, best advice I've seen in this thread so far! Shut up and keep your hands off, let the pup be a pup.

..........................

Thanks Grouse Dog Guy. The other beauty of letting the dog learn with limited human involvement , is that later on when it's away off pointing in a trial, it will hold that point for as long as it takes for you to get there. Your presence is not a factor.
If you're too involved in its' training it will be looking for you , and maybe be even more likely to break because you're not there.

Some of the old books I've read , tell of trainers letting their pups run loose on the plantation for the first 10 months , learning about birds. Then they'd bring them in and start more formal training. Interesting. ( Now we say, " Don't let them hunt on their own. They'll develop bad habits.") When did the human become so important? LOL

[ezzy333]

Some of the old books I've read , tell of trainers letting their pups run loose on the plantation for the first 10 months , learning about birds. Then they'd bring them in and start more formal training. Interesting. ( Now we say, " Don't let them hunt on their own. They'll develop bad habits.") When did the human become so important? LOL

I have sent several pups to the farm for a year or two while they learned how to hunt. And in every case it made hunting dogs out of them. I never mentioned this backwhen we were discussing training pups and so many people said to be sure to not let them self hunt. I knew it would start a big arguement but it works and works well. I think we have an ego thing that says a dog can't do anything without us teaching it. I love Doug Favors method of turning them lose and letting them learn. There is nothing I can do that will improve on actual experience. Years ago it seemed more people realized that.

Ezzy

[Elkhunter]

I want my dog to point a bird because HE wants to, not me whoaing him. If you have to whoa him to point he is doing it because he has to, not because he wants to. Its hard to trust a dog that is not a team with you. I have a pointer that I have to whoa to point, on a CC he will point every time. Loose he busts in. So we just keep popping the launcher. He is slowly figuring out that it does not work that way. After he establishes point I try to say as little as possible. I try to let him learn from his own mistakes. If you have that much access to wild birds I would just go let him point and chase those birds a few times a week!! But I would just say let him point because he wants to, not because you whoa him up. He will be more stylish and intense also. IMO. I would just set your launcher, cut him loose, as soon as he hits the scent pop the bird if he does not point. And keep doin it over and over.

[Grouse Dog Guy]

The more a pup learns on its own the less you have to train. I like to take them for walks where they will find wild birds, if I don't have wild birds I carry a bag full of pigeons when the pup comes around I throw a bird and let him chase. This shows the pup two very important things one he can't catch them, two if he hangs around me there will be birds. When he seems to be getting tired of chasing I plant a bird and let him start to use his nose, if he points ok if he doesn't I throw a bird before he can jump on the bird I had planted, just keep doing this till he lets you get in front and flush.When he lets you get in front and flush you start killing some birds for him. This is all done in twenty min. sessions every other day without a check cord or ever saying anything. I prefer this to letting a pup run free which may get him self hunting, something that would have to be trained out later. If a pup wasn't born with the desire to find birds and be with you, best to go find a pro and save yourself a headache. I like to train here and whoa away from birds in the yard, if you want to use whoa around birds so be it but your not always going to be there when pup finds a bird and if he points the bird because he has learned he can't catch them and if he waits till you get there and flush he will get to go and fetch the bird. If your training steady to wing and shot thats when I put the check cord on and make pup stay and let me fetch the bird.

[DGFavor]

I understand all of us are making the best of the resources we have available and, geez, what a great bunch of folks here trying to do right by their hounds!! For the inexperienced though, there is a myriad of pitfalls in the combination of novice trainer, young dog, and pen birds - find a mentor, find a mentor, find a mentor! There's experienced bird dog guys/gals everywhere and I've not met one yet that didn't like to help!

Yah Ezzy, I firmly believe that the best way to allow bird dogs to reach the full potential of their generations and generations of breeding is to let them find their own birds for a year or two before mucking with 'em too much. Develops a much more natural, searching, thinking hunting pattern IMO. We just try and keep 'em to the front and outta danger - in good country, there's a lot of potential for learning in between those parameters as far as I'm concerned whether it be pointing birds, knocking birds or picking up a trophy now and then!

[natetnc]

For the inexperienced though, there is a myriad of pitfalls in the combination of novice trainer, young dog, and pen birds - find a mentor, find a mentor, find a mentor! There's experienced bird dog guys/gals everywhere and I've not met one yet that didn't like to help!

my best investment was finding a local trainer who encouraged me to come out and get some hands on while he trained my dog. this was great! not only was he able to read my dog better than me in a week but he clued me into training methods that would most likely work for her and then mentioned some that would better if i didn't mess with. since i am new he did stick with a lot of the basics but i am working on those and will see him again in the fall to work on some intermediate level training. if $ is good at the end of the season and she is up to it some more advanced training may be in order.

sounds like he does have good contact with the breeder but talking and hands on, for me at least, is like day and night.

[kninebirddog]

WOW DGFavor what kinda birds you got down there LMAO

If your in an area where you can get your dog on wild birds that is great

Where I live if I was to rely on wild birds to train my dogs....well lets just say it would be years before I got anything truely accomplished...

so I have to rely on pigeons and pen raised birds

Pen raised birds one day fly great next day they only fly as far as you can kick them...
So you need to use launchers or check cords and a helper having help is always a great thing but on the launcher...the only time i see blinking flinching with a launcher is if you do not launch well enough in time and the dog is ontop of the launcher and it smacks the dog...


when you hold the dog hind area are you just holding the flank area as in the rick smith method in teaching a point of contact? we do that here not to style the dog at all but teaching a point of contact so when the dog moves we lift up the back end to take the forward motion away from the dog the dog settles we set the hind end back down

no words no whoa ...just quietly making a new pattern of scent and stop having someone to go ahead of you to kick around and then launch the bird is also a good thing then the dog learns to have someone in front of him while he is standing still for the flush

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

haha, man everyone is so helpful.. this is great.

I just got done building the Pigeon coop. We recieved 10 Homers.. My dog does great and I really don't say much at all when we work the fields.. Its just nice that we have the resources now to launch birds and not have to shoot them and really work with their points. Im more of a duck hunter but we have tons of pheasants and grouse around here so I worked with him mainly on retrieves which are great.. Water work is great as well.. for what I need out of him.

The field work is new to me.. Thats why Im so happy with everyones help.

He has done well with hunting so far.. and like I said he worked fields and flushed out pheasants before as a pup and I've shot and he has retrieved pheasants out of the tall grass and the woods..

When I use a launcher I've told you all what I have done.. I dont talk much .. I keep the training short and fun. Ill take all this advice and see whats best for us and see what happens..

Thanks again all.

Mikey & Odin

[Duke82]

You just got done building a pigeon coop, you mean you just got done helping and watching me build half a pigeon coop.

[natetnc]

When I use a launcher I've told you all what I have done.. I dont talk much ..

Then I would "WHOA" him..

that part is crucial, just because you don't say that many words doesn't mean you can't mess up the process with one. best to take the advise not to talk at all.

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Hey,


I plant the bird in the launcher, I then walk back to the truck. I enter the field and say, " find em buddy," we walk up and down the field while I say nothing.. then he will grab scent once we walk past the, "Cone of scent" I keep going up and down the field getting closer and closer to the cone.
Once we get close enough to where I realize he's on point and realizes the bird is close I whoa him. As I walk up to him, If he moves I will launch the bird, If he doesn't then I hold his head and hind quarters and we flush the bird. After the shot I command him to go get the bird. He brings back the bird and happy day.. we go home..

Thats what I have been doing as of late.

So after all of this.. and this thread...If anyone has any advice to what I have said ... please feel free...

I love my dog.. and Im not into pressuring him into some crazy Trials and tests.. I am only after creating a good hunting team, duck, pheasant or grouse.. me and him.. just to make sure we both are on the same page.

Night all.. and thanks..

Mikey & Odin

[bobman]

you are over-handling over-training this dog, just let him find birds and if he doesn't point immediately launch the bird. Prior to entering field place duct tape on mouth ( yours not his). No whoa no "hold his head and his hind quarters" just let him learn through repetition that if he crowds the bird it will flush, with absolutley no verbal from you.


Try to find some wild birds even if you have to drive a few hours, and let them teach him.

You do not ever teach a dog to point its instinctive and that instinct has to surface through bird exposure you cannot make it happen

[natetnc]

So after all of this.. and this thread...If anyone has any advice to what I have said ... please feel free...

everyone has given advice and the general concensus is to not say anything, let the dog work, and pop on his actions yet you continue to whoa him. why would you ask for more advice if you haven't taken any of the suggestions given seriously, are you looking for someone to tell you what you want to hear?

i think your best option at this point would be to do nothing with birds, let the dog take the summer off and enjoy swimming in the water. when hunting season comes around take him to the woods and do nothing different than when you hunted alone. your dog will learn quickly as long as you don't hack him.

[LarryLowell]

I didnt have time to read through all the replys, so if you've already been given this advice, take it for what it is, My Opinion.

First off, your first mistake was using the wing on a string. All that does is teach sight pointing.

Second by the way your post reads you went right from the wing on a string to birds in a launcher, and then right off the bat started Whoaing the dog on birds ? IMO you need to reinterduce your dog on live birds. So heres a few options, 1st ) take the dog free running in areas with wild birds so he can bump and chase and learn the smell of the birds, and learn he cant get to close, 2nd option) you can lightly plant some pigeons in a field and let the dog free run, again to bump and chase until he figures out the smell of the birds, and figures out he cant get to close to them. 3rd option) An easy way if you dont have homing pigeons is to Card Pigeons. How I do it is take a 18"-24" string and tie it to either a piece 10" piece of hose or to a stick, attach the other end of the string to the pigoens legs. Having a helper to hold the dog, you take the pigeon, from an upwind position, and let the dog get a BIG nose full of the bird (DONT let him bit it or grab it etc..) start to tease the dog with the bird by holding hte stick or hose and letting the bird fly around a bit. All this in front of the bird so he is smelling the bird the whole time. Then take the bird and throw it and let it fly off. Holding your dog back until the bird lands. Then work your dog on the checkcord around in a circle to get to the downwind side of the bird. Let the dog work the bird In most cases the dog will want to run right up to the bird, so hold him back, pick up the bird, and throw it again. Repeat this several time until the dog starts to Identify the smell and slows down and starts to point. On new dogs I have in for training I might do this maybe one day , for others it might take a few days.

Once the dog knows the smell of the bird and has somewhat of a stop and point. I will put birds in either launchers or if I have a helper I'll lightly plant them. One thing I read that you are doing that I disagree with is your whoaing your dog on the bird. IMO you need to stop that. I teach my dogs that for every action there is a reaction. If you hit the scent cone and start to creep I will give them a little light tug with the checkcord connected to a pinch collar. I dont say a word, this is all done quitely. If he move give alittle pop repeat several time if you have to. Because you played the wing on a string game hes going to want to see the bird. He wont trust his nose. You need to teach him to trust his nose, you need to teach him what a bird smell like. The wing is a sight game and the wing has no smell thats going to help him find a live bird. Whoaing your dog on point is a false pointing game. Hes not identifying the bird, you know the birds there and dont want him to get it. The dog need to learn to stop on first scent on his own, without words. Again with the mind set of for every action there is a reaction. If the dog moves a light tug, if the dog move again alight tug, and at some point you will launch the bird. Once the bird is launched drop the checkcord and let the dog chase.

Now the pinch collar is IMO the right way to slowly interduce the e-collar, they use the same contact points on the dogs neck, and later you can slowly transfer over to the e-collar after lots of repitition with the checkcord and pinch collar. After you've transfered over to the e-collar if the the dog creeps you nick him with the collar, again for every action there is a reaction, no words needed. The e-collar becomes the extention of the checkcord, with out using it, etc... etc...

Whoaing a dog on point does a dog no good, he'll always need you to whoa him for him to completely stop. He needs to learn to stop and point on his own.

LATER after he is pointing and holing his point you can reinterduce whoa, but only as a stay command if hes looking alittle antsy as your working the bird, but if you,ve interduced the e-collar correctly you can give him a nick if hes antsy too with out saying a word.

Again this is just My Opinion. Take it for what its worth, your getting it for free.


Have fun Training


Larry Lowell
www.PointingDogTrainer.com

[BluffCountryOutdoors]

Well Larry,

I can't thank you enough.. I'll definatly take your advice. I do agree with a lot of what you're saying and much of it is new and I'm glad to have heard it.

I have to get to bed as I'm rambling and not making much sense.

Thanks again, It makes a lot of sense..

Mikey & Odin