What is "Stop to Flush"?

[doublea]

On another thread there seems to be some confusion over “Stop to flush” and “Steady to flush”. As they are two different things, I think it important that we look at this topic a little closer and in more detail. For starters – Steady to flush is what a dog is or is not while in the scent cone on point. We commonly refer to a dog as being steady to flush if he will remain motionless until the handler puts the bird up at which time the dog may break with the flight of the bird. In a nutshell that’s what “Steady to Flush” or steady to wing as it is sometimes called is all about.

So what is “Stop to Flush” and how is it different? Stop to Flush is a training step that teaches the dog to use his eyes instead of his nose – it makes him keenly aware of his environment and all things happening around him -- including where I am. Don’t worry though we’ll get his nose back into it before long this is just a logical step in the over all chain of events and IMO it’s proper place is right after yard work and right before staunching on point. Here’s how I do it: I put the CC onto my dog and go to the field with a bag full of pigeons (I like them for this step because they fly off rather than land on the other side of the field). Anyway—as the dog is running WITH the wind (I don't want to give the dog that added stimulus of smelling the bird at this stage of training) and while I have a gloved hand on the CC I will toss a pigeon in front of the dog so as he sees it. Now as I all ready know I have a dog worth training as he has proven his worth and interest on birds in our initial outings to the field. I figure I have a pretty good idea as to how he will react to the flight of the bird. As such and as the dog chases the flight of the bird I will SLOW him to a stop with the CC I don't knock him down and I also say absolutely nothing to the dog – no Whoa or good dog –nothing at all not now. I will continue to do this at various times for several days until the dog is dependable at stopping on either the sight or the sound of the bird (vary your timing on throwing a bird up or as you progress throw the bird down on the bare ground in front of the dog – dogs have an uncanny ability to read and anticipate so switch things up from time to time. I don’t want the dog stopping prior to seeing or hearing the bird). The whole idea behind this is to use a very low-pressure way of teaching the dog that the sight and sound of a bird means stop. It works on a very SIMPLE principle -- part of the K.I.S.S. method I spoke of on another thread. Just like when you and I see a certain octagon shaped sign on the side of the road we know it to mean stop -- right? We have learned to tie the image into an action -- the same thing works with a dog. The sight of a bird on the ground or in the air becomes a “Stop” sign. As I progress through this Stop to Flush training I have seen dogs that become so proficient at it that they actually stop with such authority that they tear up the ground around their feet and then look back to me as if to say “how was that one boss?”

Why do I teach this to my dogs? Because it ultimately teaches the dog to be more confident on point and it heightens their awareness of their surroundings thus making future training easier i.e. backing. As we have taught the dog not to chase the flight or the sight of a bird prior to staunching him on point via the “Stop to flush” method. The whole process of staunching/breaking to wing and shot becomes so much easier and less stressful for both man and beast – especially if you are by yourself in the field. Why is it easier – because I have curbed the dog’s interest in seeing the bird either on the ground or in the air – remember that bird is now a “Stop” sign! There-for in one simple little logical step I have reduced if not totally eliminated the incidences of creeping on point as well as crowding birds and or bumping and chasing birds before it ever became a problem in the dog. Even if these things are a current problem in an older dog -- Stop to Flush is the solution. What’s more via this process I have in effect taught the dog that his reward for a job well done is the thrill of a safe confident scent point, which IMO is exactly the way it should be. Plus as an added bonus if in the event the dog does happen to run over a bird – he will hit the skids stopping to flush and shot which in most circles of the dog world is still considered to be within the realm acceptable canine behavior.

In the end this “Stop to flush” method is IMO the cure to many dog/bird related problems -- everything from creeping and scooping to flushing and chasing. In some cases it has even solved problems with flagging on point. It is so simple and logical that it boggles the mind. Yet it is in effect on par with Force Breaking a Dog to Retrieve when one considers all of the added benefits and importance it offers to ones over all training program. I hope I have explained it well enough that all understand the method. If not please ask and I will try to answer best I can.

[QCBirddogs]

Excellent and well written discription...

But....

Herein lies a problem........Some dogs love to see the birds fly, I have hidden in trees and watched dogs purposely take birds out and stand there like they did nothing.......letting them get away with it and teaching them to STF seems futile if your goals are to have a fully trained broke dog.

If your goals are to have a fully trained dog there is no need to train STF, just go on with training for Steady to wing and shot.

Phil
REO

[snips]

Thats how I do it. I just train them not to chase from the start and they automatically will stop and watch a bumped bird fly. When I stop the chase after the flush it also works on any flying bird. They must stop.....

[doublea]

QCBirddogs,

I’m not sure I understand what your saying – how are we letting a STF dog get away with putting a bird in the air? The sight and sound of the bird mean “Stop”, which in turn means the fun is over as there is no chase involved. IMO a dog that would rather flush a bird than honor scent and point that bird is most probably lacking in other areas as well. The only way to find out for certain is through STF training -- if he can be fixed this is the way to do it IMO. If the problem is still a problem then IMO we very well might be further ahead to move the dog on down the road as opposed to continuing to try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Even so, and if we did get a dog like this I know of no other way that w could fully break a dog that “loves to see birds fly” than through the STF method or some variation of it? What do you do to break this problem and how is it different than STF and does it work for those sometimes troublesome as I call them "out on a limb finds"?

[doublea]

Brenda,

You mention you never let the dog chase -- have you found that by not letting the dog chase your dogs have a more relaxed confident point than those dogs that have been allowed to bump and run for the first year? It almost seems that like me -- you also put a lot into the genetic side of a well bred bird dog.

[QCBirddogs]

Brenda and I are on the same page of music here........

If you plan to have a "Broke" dog there is no need for STF training. In the training for breaking a dog to be steady to wing and shot.....they are taught ot stop to flush, so to speak.

Essentially, if those who are just looking for a basic hunting dog that goes with the shot.....then arent they taught that its not ok to go unless the is one? Wouldnt that be STF?

Good breeding is the only way to go....IF they are bird dogs they dont need to be fired up! Our dogs here only get to see very few birds before going through formal training. Why take a dog to a bird with a CC on if they dont know what a tug around the waist means in the yard first?!

My personal opinion.......the safest (for man and beast alike) and most gentleman like bird dog is one that is "BROKE" No screaming at a dog....NO BIRD etc or see if the dog chases the right bird that has been shot. Just think at how many more chances at single birds or how many times you could have a chance at a second point on a grouse if the dog wasnt running around looking for a retrieve.

WHich brings up the next debate.......some folks think you lose to many wounded birds with a broke dog.......That might be true but only due to the fault of the trainer.

FF'ing a dog does not teach it to track and retrieve.....it just teachs a dog to watch something fall and pick it up and return to you with it in its mouth. Tracking is a whole other aspect that many do not know how to train for.

Phil
REO

[TAK]

WHich brings up the next debate.......some folks think you lose to many wounded birds with a broke dog.......That might be true but only due to the fault of the trainer.

FF'ing a dog does not teach it to track and retrieve.....it just teachs a dog to watch something fall and pick it up and return to you with it in its mouth. Tracking is a whole other aspect that many do not know how to train for.

Phil
REO

I agree but I also disagree! I also think a good hunting dog goes with the shot.... Opinion yes but I think I can back it up to. Utah is no power house for Pheasants but the ones we do have you have to work for. I find more birds in River Bottoms, not rolling hills and corn fields. I'm talking bull rushes, cotton wood trees, Rushin Olives weeds of every kind, The River bottoms! they hold anything from small tweet tweet birds to Moose, Elk, Deer. I am trying to discribe just how thick it is! I have been on hands and knees many times when there was a flush and never see a bird just sound. To be honest there is times you can't get to the dog to make a flush!
I guess also, I should say a good Pheasant dog goes with the shot. In your last post about Grouse hunting the advantage of being broke makes since to me but I don't think you get a seconed chance at Pheasants.

[doublea]

Brenda and I are on the same page of music here........

If you plan to have a "Broke" dog there is no need for STF training. In the training for breaking a dog to be steady to wing and shot.....they are taught ot stop to flush, so to speak.

Essentially, if those who are just looking for a basic hunting dog that goes with the shot.....then arent they taught that its not ok to go unless the is one? Wouldnt that be STF?

Phil,

I think we are all on the same page of music. The only difference is in the order in which we read it. STF when taught at the right time in training makes breaking to wing and shot a whole bunch easier--matter of fact that's the primary purpose of this method. Heck you're doing it anyway --so-to-speak! It's just that you're doing it at a different time in the dogs training. Nothing wrong with what you're doing -- just that I think I have found a way that is both easier and better for the dog.

And as to your second question -- yes, with the basic hunting dog if there is such a thing-- if they do not break with the shot that is in effect STF however in this case most folks would consider it to be steady to wing as the dog has gone on point. It is rather neat at how one leads to the next though -- Stop to flush easily and seamlessly transitioning into steady to wing which in turn gets into steady to wing and shot.

[Gregory]

I'm on the same page as Brenda and Phil are on this ... And will go as far as to say by training to steady to wing and shot you have a much better shot at steadying the dog through the flush than if you were to train strictly to steady to flush .Let me tell you why,with one you are training to have the dog stay steady on point( Steady to wing and shot) by not allowing the dog to move after it establishes point while the other (steady to flush) only comes in to play after the flush, a flush that may have been created intentionally by the dog. Matter of fact, for those dogs (like the ones Phil observed while hiding in the trees) are only stopping after they did their dirty little work,for example.
Now, I don't want to seem as though I am saying working the dog to be steady to the flush is worthless,it does have it's place in the dogs traing.
For intance . I'm working my young GSP in my back yard on steady to flush, even though he is steady to wing and shot. Just in case he hapens to end up eye ball to eye ball with a quail durring a hunt test.So, I have him stending still while I throw live pigeons under his nose and make him stay put. But to have trained him to be steady to the flush prior to steadying him up throught the flush,then later to the shot,would have been like putting the cart in front of the horse ,indstead the other way around.IMO....

G.

[snips]

Alan, I did not mean I never allow dogs to chase, I let them do their share of bumping and running while young. After I start formal training I stop chasing and they will automatically not chase any bumped bird. It usually only takes 1 attempt but they already know it is not allowed.

[larue]

the best thing about teaching a dog to stop to flush,,or stop to a bird in the air,,,is you can put most of the pressure on a dog
when a dog is chasing not on a dog when he is pointing,,
this can really make a difference in not loseing style..and it getting a dog completely broke...by only correcting a dog when it is chasing,,the dog learns the chase is wrong,,and has very little corrections while the dog is on point...which usually takes care
of a whole lot of other issues,,such as losing style,,blinking,
laying down,,ect...
it also teach;s a dog to stop to bumps,,stand through honor's..
ect...

[doublea]

Gregory,

I am sure you're not being argumentative just for the sake of arguing so I will give the benefit of the doubt and say-- possibly it's a case of maybe you still don't understand the difference between Stop to flush and steady to wing. In either case -- lets look at what you just posted and ask ourselves -- how can we break a dog like your young GSP steady to wing and shot without first breaking the dog from chasing a bird? He ain't broke if he still chases birds Greg! Now if he stops to the sight of a bird in the air or on the ground -- you have in effect in a round about way trained Stop to Flush. Again the steady to wing stuff involves the dog being on point -- Stop to Flush does not. Two different things here -- one leads us to the next though.

I like how Larue explained this method -- I think he did a better job of it than I did.

[doublea]

Brenda,

How do you stop them from chasing bumped birds and does the same hold true on birds that are pointed, flushed and possibly missed or you're unable to shoot -- will the dog break and chase then? The thing I really like about this Stop to Flush method is how it works on Hen Pheasants -- I am not sure everyone knows this -- but we can't legally shoot them here in North Dakota and the STF dog does not have to be told "Whoa" to keep him from breaking with the flush of a Hen and going for a retrieve as most Pheasant dogs will do. It also seems to pay off real well on running birds -- why I am not real sure but the dog does not seem as intent on roading a running Pheasant after they have gone through this STF training. Maybe it's a case of the dog has learned not to push a bird and make it fly -- which sounds like a good reason to me. I do know that my dogs will point and set Wild Roosters in 8" tall Wheat Stubble and I like to think they can do it because of this method.

[pear]

I may be missing something here.........but with steady to WSF, the dog won't chase beacause the is no F. If you dog is steady to wing shot and fall.............why would there be a chase? The dog would need to be released from point , on misses and hens, unless you dog is only steady to wing and shot........."pear"

[doublea]

Pear,

In different parts of the dog world folks have different requirements for the dog. Take, as an example the hunting dog -- if one uses his dog on mostly Quail or Grouse STWS&F is a nice finish. However, if the dog makes his living on wild Pheasants the steadiness to the fall can be a handicap to the dog. Reason being -- a wounded Rooster Pheasant can run faster and cover more ground quicker than you can possibly imagine. Combine this with the fact that the bird was just shot out of the sky and we find that his feathers are now air washed and he is not giving off as much scent. (You know I have shot birds that I have watched run into a real small patch of cover with no way out without being seen and I have lost them. In fact I have put as many as 4 dogs into and area the size of the average back yard on most folks houses with nothing but bare dirt surrounding it and never found the bird! ) So for this reason and with a Pheasant dog that is fully broke through shot and fall – the chances of finding and retrieving that bird are much less than they would be if the same dog was allowed to break with the shot and meet the bird within seconds of his hitting the ground or at the very least being close enough to follow the sight and sound of the wounded running bird. Now let me add to this that a strong argument can be made for the wing shot and fall dogs ability to mark the fall of the bird -- which IMO is of little value if the bird ain't laying dead where he hit the ground, but that's just my opinion.

So to tie this back into the issue of Stop to Flush, regardless to whether you want the dog to break with the shot or you want to take him to the point of being fully finished and broke to wing shot and fall. The idea of breaking him from chasing un-shot, unwanted and sometimes unpointed birds is the same. We first break them from the chase “stop to flush” then we break them to “wing” or staunch them on point and then if we elect to do so we finish them off with “wing shot and fall”. We do it in that order and we end up with a confident stylish dog – one we can be proud of.

[Gregory]

Gregory,

I am sure you're not being argumentative just for the sake of arguing so I will give the benefit of the doubt and say-- possibly it's a case of maybe you still don't understand the difference between Stop to flush and steady to wing. In either case -- lets look at what you just posted and ask ourselves -- how can we break a dog like your young GSP steady to wing and shot without first breaking the dog from chasing a bird? He ain't broke if he still chases birds Greg! Now if he stops to the sight of a bird in the air or on the ground -- you have in effect in a round about way trained Stop to Flush. Again the steady to wing stuff involves the dog being on point -- Stop to Flush does not. Two different things here -- one leads us to the next though.

I like how Larue explained this method -- I think he did a better job of it than I did.

I don't need you to look and see how I broke my young GSP to be steady to wing and through the shot. I did it through the same order of things as Brenda, and Phil and by the same method of countless others have... You take the dog through the tried and proved method....

You are right,I am not being argumentitive,but I think it's you that can't play a particular training scenario through your mind and see where it leads you...
My young GSP is already steady to wing and steady through the shot and he stands there like the proud boy that he is watching the pigeon circling high above him. And by imploying my method (E collar free) Imanaged to do it with only 20 pigeons out of the launcher.There are two young men from this board that I'm teaching them my methods that will be more than glad to tell you what they observed with their own eyes,any time you say the word....



Pear. No you are not missing anything. A dog that is broke to steady to wing and shot is a dog that does not give chase after the shot.... But, he also needs to be broke to the fall as well. But for the sake of this argument:>) you are correct...

G.

[brian]

DoubleA,

I train with Gregory and his 2 year old GSP is steady through the shot. He will watch the pigeon fly around a little while to get his direction and then home back to Greg's house. He does not chase at all.

[doublea]

Greg & Brian -- I never ever said Pete was or was not steady to wing and shot -- you did! If he is -- great I really hope he stays that way, as he is a nice young dog and Greg sure thinks the world of him. Maybe Greg’s next project could be getting Jake trained so as he can hunt with him as well.

And FYI this is a tried and true method -- it's easy, it's logical and it takes little out of the dog. I guess I should have figured it would be a tuff sell for those who are set in their ways and unwilling to grasp the concept. Oh well, I tried.

Maybe now we can get Greg to share his method of breaking the dog steady to wing and shot as he seems so critical of this one. As he does, if he does, I would ask that he takes us from start to finish. I want to know exactly how he breaks a dog steady to wing and shot without first breaking him from chasing an unpointed or bumped and unshootable bird! Does he do this after the fact? If so why not do it first via Stop to Flush training and have things make more sense to the dog later on? It is one thing to get the dog to stand still and watch a pointed bird fly in a controlled situation -- it's another to get the dog to stop and stand on his own should a bird flush wild in front of him, beside him or behind him while the dog is several hundred yards out in a field hunting or as Phil observed in a position to where the dog thinks he is out of the handlers view and can get away with it. The Stop to flush dog has learned that those birds mean, "STOP". Because they mean stop, the transition to the flight of a pointed and flushed bird also meaning "STOP" is about as easy as it gets for both man and dog. Reason being -- because the dog previously learned that the sight and sound of a bird in the air or on the ground means "DO NOT CHASE"! Now tell me what's wrong with that and what part are you not understanding?

[Gregory]

No thanks on getting jake to hunt by me.I could with the collar,but then again, I don't want too use it on him. so rather than beat my head against the wall ,I just as soon retire him as I have... There are too many well bred dogs that are better suited for the foot hunter than to try to make a dog with 11 Hall of Fame dogs in his pedigree in to a foot hunters dog.


And you are not being fair to me ,or to those that did not agree with you as to what you claim the accumplishments will be by breaking the dog to stop to flush..
As I said, stop to flush does merit some cosideration in a dogs training, but not for the reason you claim, nor at that particular time in the dogs training.......
And as far as my method . I have no problem in sharing it with anyone, but i will not share it on this thread as it will be off topic...


And Alan, there is not one part to stop to flush that I don't understand. By not agreeing to all that you claim does not mean I dodn't understand it, in fact the reason why I don't agree could be that I understand the stop to flush and where it is useful and where it is not, might be better than you...

G.

[doublea]

If that's the case Greg -- then why do you keep going back to "Steady to flush" a different deal all-together? Tell us what is wrong with "Stop to flush" and why, if you understand it so well! And please feel free to start another thread dedicated to your methods.

That fair enough?

As to not being fair -- yes I am! The benefits that I mentioned are there and those that truly understand the method know it and have seen it! You have too -- you just didn't know it at the time. Remember that Rooster Ty pointed 1/2 mile up the fencerow in the stubble? You know the one where Pete didn't honor the point and ran between my dog and the bird yet Ty still stood steady to shot and I missed the bird after I flushed him out of the stubble --remember that one Greg? That right there was one of the benefits to "Stop to Flush" right there in that field and on that bird and it was very real and we both know it! Fact is because of the Stop to Flush method Ty has no interest in seeing the bird in the air so in turn he stood confident on his point paying no attention to Pete running around in front of him and enjoyed his reward for finding that bird -- he didn't care that I missed as he went on to find and point 2 covies of huns in the same field -- remember -- I missed them too! But man was it fun!!!

[Gregory]

No Alan, I don't remember that particular incident where Pete failed to back or where Ty pointed the rooster. Pete and I were heading across the wheat stubble to the other wind row when we heard the shot. I do however remember Pete running toward you and ty where you and Ty were to check where the shot came from and he and when he spotted Ty chasing after the rooster he ended up hooking up with him to chase that rooster 500,600 yards or so., The two of them alsmost caught it as I recall. And as far as you and the huns? well I din't see any of it to know it went down as you say, by that time I was heading back to the truck. Ty sure as heck didn't look like no stop to flush dog chasing that rooster with Pete, then again you never made the claim that he was the two different times I was there, so I had no reason to suspect that he was..Is he? :>) Now as far as me telling you what the stop to flush is not good for, I did as well as telling where it's well suited and for what, Larue did as well. I explained that all to you in my first post as well as my second post. Phil did too...
Go reread my posts.

And as far me telling you about my method Alan,first off all, why should I, am I on trial.You started this thread,so lets just keep it all about you.


So, unless you have something meaningfull to add as to why stop to flush is so great ,that you did not mention already. we will have to agree to disagree...
G.

[doublea]

WOW! Not only don't you know the difference between the word STOP and the word STEADY as in “STOP to flush” and “STEADY to flush”, but you seem to have a selective memory to boot! Now maybe you should go back and read Larues post again – it tells of the benefits of “STOP to flush” training Greg. The words -- B-E-N-E-F-I-T-S and S-T-O-P as well as S-T-E-A-D-Y look them up, Google them if need be -- just try and understand the verbiage that is being used before you criticize what you don’t understand.

Now be brave Greg and put your method up on the board, if you really even have one that is-- you claim to know so much, now prove it and start another thread! I got an idea maybe you could begin by explain what is the difference between “Stop to Flush” and “Steady to Flush/ Steady to Wing” is! Maybe we can all learn something – what do you say? Come on help the board here Greg.

Until you do I am done degrading this thread by playing your game and trying to explain what "STOP to Flush" is and is not to you. After all I think everyone but you gets it and knows the difference between "Stop to flush" and "Steady to flush/steady to wing"!

[snips]

Just a question here Greg. It is real simple to get a dog to stand for a pigeon to launch and fly around over his head. Will Pete stand thru a shot for a quail to get up and fly 6 ft and go down in front of him?

[doublea]

Another question Greg -- What exactly is wrong with teaching a dog not to chase a bird prior to staunching him on point? That is what Stop to flush training does you know.

[Gregory]

Just a question here Greg. It is real simple to get a dog to stand for a pigeon to launch and fly around over his head. Will Pete stand thru a shot for a quail to get up and fly 6 ft and go down in front of him?

It's simple if you say it is, Brenda..:>) If you been reading my posts on this thread, I think I posted on one of them that I have him in training now to make sure that he does stay put in the event a quail came up six feet in front of him. So, I gues by stating that in that post,I'm saying that I suspect that he wont,and I am doing something about it with the stop to flush method.. And when I'm done with that I have few more tricks in the bag that I will run by him to further make sure... BUt as of now, he is steady to wing and through shot and at backing as well through the shot...
I think you'll find where I said that in my second post,if not the third on this subject.....

G.


Alan, i'm sorry but I wont be party to something I have not witnessed. If I had seen one of your dogs perform stop to flush I would say so,regardless of our differences. That you can take to the bank...

I read Larues post and I agree with what he said, which by the way is nothing like you are making stop to flush as being.It aint a cure all Alan and he didn't say that it was.. Nor did he say as you have, to put the stop to flush ahead of all the other training that the dog needs to be through before you train him stop to flush. And as Phil said for those that want a broke dog, or one that is steady through the flush they are better off taking the dog through the steady to wing and shot program. because there are a lot more benefits associated with that part of the dogs training then what the dog will get out of the stop to flush. Plus that program will serve the guy that wants his dog to go with the fush,like some shoot to retrieves like having their dogs do. I think Tak made that point quite clear for the Pheasant hunters.Din't you get it? or are you just blinking it....:>)
If it was a cure all ,then everybody would be going to it from the get go and we all would have broke dogs.:>)

Now as far as my method Alan,I don't feel the urge to explain it to you. Besides, my method does not consist of just one thing,it depends on the dog and how he is progressing.You are a pro as well as I am, and you should have know that Phil, Brenda,I Larue,Tak and all the other pro's out there sort of go with the flow to get the dog From point A to Point Z..


G.

[Gregory]

Another question Greg -- What exactly is wrong with teaching a dog not to chase a bird prior to staunching him on point? That is what Stop to flush training does you know.

N

Teaching a dog not to chase Alan , is a world apart from training him to stop to flush.. I can have a fully broke dog (proving he was the right dog) by the time he is 8 months old if I didn't allow him to chase from the get go...But, that same dog if I didn't go through everything else that is associated with stoping the chase, and went straight to stop to Flush. That dog might be a creeper, a pouncer, a bird knocker and the only thing he might know is to stop to flush and nothing else.....


And if you are now saying stop to flush is same as not chasing, you should have said that from the get go and we could have avoided all this........ But it aint and I hope you are not silly enought to try and make the conection...

G.

[doublea]

Another question Greg -- What exactly is wrong with teaching a dog not to chase a bird prior to staunching him on point? That is what Stop to flush training does you know.

And if you are now saying stop to flush is same as not chasing, you should have said that from the get go and we could have avoided all this........ But it aint and I hope you are not silly enough to try and make the connection...

G.

Greg,

I have said from the outset and I have said so in many different ways that "Stop to Flush" teaches the dog that the sight or sound of a bird either on the ground or in the air means "STOP" and if it means stop then quite obviously the dog has learned not to be chasing the bird hence the name of the method "STOP TO FLUSH" get it!? Now maybe you can tell us again how "Stop to Flush" is a world apart from teaching a dog not chase a bird! Maybe you should Google that word "STOP” first though -- it might further your understanding of what is being said!

As to the rest of your response to Brenda – it shows your total lack of understanding to both this method and to dog training in general. Now I really hate to burst your bubble Greg – but if you’re now after the fact going back and throwing pigeons in front of Pete to get him to stand a bird that just flutters in front of him or walks around him. Well my friend Pete is a far cry from being broke to wing and shot! Let me also say that just because you can pop a pigeon out of a release and one, two or 5 minutes later fire a gun into the air does not mean the dog is broke. A dog that is BROKE does not move even if the bird walks in front of him, not even if it flutters in front of him or craps on his head -- A BROKE DOG DOES NOT MOVE UNTIL TOLD TO!! Again know the verbiage before you comment! But then why am I telling you this -- you're the pro -- right!?

As to my asking you to put up or shut up -- hey man don't do it for my benefit. Do it for the rest of the readers of this site -- heck I have seen your dogs so you don't need to try to sell me anything!

[Gregory]

Another question Greg -- What exactly is wrong with teaching a dog not to chase a bird prior to staunching him on point? That is what Stop to flush training does you know.

And if you are now saying stop to flush is same as not chasing, you should have said that from the get go and we could have avoided all this........ But it aint and I hope you are not silly enought to try and make the conection...

G.

Greg,

I have said from the outset and I have said so in many different ways that "Stop to Flush" teaches the dog that the sight or sound of a bird either on the ground or in the air means "STOP" and if it means stop then quite obviously the dog has learned not to be chasing the bird hence the name of the method "STOP TO FLUSH" get it!? Maybe you should Google that word "STOP" -- it might further your understanding of what is being said!

As to the rest of your response to Brenda – it shows your total lack of understanding to both this method and to dog training in general. Now I really hate to burst your bubble Greg – but if you’re now after the fact going back and throwing pigeons in front of Pete to get him to stand a bird that just flutters in front of him or walks around him. Well my friend Pete is a far cry from being broke to wing and shot! A dog that is BROKE does not move even if the bird walks in front of him, not even if it flutters in front of him or craps on his head -- A BROKE DOG DOES NOT MOVE UNTIL TOLD TO!! Again know the verbiage before you comment!

As to my asking you to put up or shut up -- hey man don't do it for my benefit. Do it for the rest of the readers of this site -- heck I have seen your dogs so you don't need to try to sell me anything!

Okay Alan, Pete aint broke according to your difinition, But nonetheless I was smart enought to have know what else was needed and went right at getting it done......:>)
But what the hey .eh? what do I know..
G

[Greg Jennings]

Gentlemen,

Get it back between the ditches, please.

[larue]

lets back up here,,,you have a nice young dog,,,say 12 months of age,,that is bird crazy,,,that you have collar conditioned,,,and want to finish,,to master level work..and you want a very stylish
dog when you are done...
So you take this young dog out,,plant a bird,,,he points it,,and starts to jump in,,,you correct the dog with the e-collar,,
stopping him in his tracks,,,now what does he look like?
in many,,many cases,,he is wagging his tail,,and looks confused,,
is everything but intense...as you caused him pain,,to stop him...
In some dogs,,you create blinking,,laying down,,tucked tails...
by repeating this scene.. THE DOG STARTS TO ASSOCIATE THE
CORRECTION WITH the POINTING OF THE BIRD!
this training,,makes or breaks a dog,,,and as you are useing birds there is no easy fix to help if he loses style...or lays down...

Now with the stf method...the dog is taught to stop on dummys,,
in the air,,then dead birds,,then flying birds thrown,,,then
wing clipped bird thrown...as the dog see's then coming out of your hand,,he knows what to do...
The dog is never on point,,during these corrections,,so he cannot
associate the corretions with pointing a bird...so he can look like crap..during this training...and it will not affect his final product...
you can also bring a soft dog into a bird,,and let him point it,,
to pump him back up...in between the stf work...this will keep him happy,,and excited about the work that is being done..

Now when you bring your young dog into a point,,with the stf method,,you do not correct until he has put the bird up,,and is chasing,,with each correction,,you will find the dog chases less,,
and soon the dog will no longer chase,,and then he will be broke..
all with the least amount of direct pressure on the dog,,while he is pointing game...

It comes down to putting the least amount of pressure on a dog,
while he is on point,,to retain as much style as possible...

[ezzy333]

It is a shame when two people think it is more important to explain their methods of training than to just do what you want to do that will produce a dog you like. I think anyone that has trained many dogs knows there are different methods to reach the end goal and no one of them will work on every dog. For example there are pinch collars and E-collars, both work when properly used and one is no better than the other. They both are tools to use that make training easier, and that is all they are.

If you need to argue about your methods go some where and do it. Meanwhile the rest of us can do our thing and if we have a question we will ask it. I'm sure you both have done a good job with your dogs but so have the rest of us. This site has been a great place to ask if any of us need help.

It seems you both are more enamored with your method of training than you are of your dogs and how they perform, where I think how you do it is unimportant compared with how the dog performs. Just a minor difference I suppose but it seems quite big to me.

Ezzy

[snips]

I prefer to break a dog off chasing in a few sessions CCing the dog from the rear. I like to reinforce what I have already taught them with an E-collar rather than teach them with an E. I know it works both ways and everyone does it different, and the end is the same. When CCing a dog from the rear he will be standing without chasing within 2 sessions usually, and sometimes on the first.

[pear]

ezzy333 Very Very well said !!!!! There is more to be learned here than anyone can absorb. The resources here are nearly unlimited. Grant runs a super board here, and there are some very knowledgeable people who have and will devote a lot of time, explaining what has worked for them. Nearly all of them know that what they do won't work for everybody. Heck I'm sure if they would be honest, it doesn't work just the same for them each time. Seems none of the real contributors here ever become cross when their method is questioned. Most are very open to questions, and understand that some people need to have things explain from a different angles to be understood. I can't speak for Grant, and I won't try, but I'll speculate..........I doubt he'll allow these free-for-alls to continue, and he shouldn't. Disagreeing is not an issue, that is healthy, becoming combative is just not acceptable. If you can't play by the rules expect a penalty.........."pear"

[grant]

I'll read through these in the morning. I fished a bass tournament today, and I just got in at 12am.

[TAK]

Did you win??????

[doublea]

Y'all are right -- it is an exercise in futility in trying to explain a method pro or con when certain belligerent people refuse to understand what is being said for the sole purpose of continuing a childish run and gun vendetta. At no time was my intent to convince anyone that this “Stop to flush” method was the only way or the best way. I put it up on the board to share some of what I do and how I do it – like someone said it probably won’t work for every dog, but it does work for most of them. In fact I think I said something to the effect “I “THINK” I have found a way that is both easier and better for the dog”, that certainly does not imply that y’all need to do things my way. Sadly what I did on this post is I got frustrated by repeatedly answering the same question over and over and trying my best to define the difference between “Stop to flush” and “Steady to flush” all to the one argumentative person who tried to convince us that he didn’t seem to get it and even if he did it still wouldn’t work. The post was never about whether it would work or not – it was about sharing a method. Admittedly, I must be a slow learner – I did however catch on to his game and I refuse to answer any more of his argumentative ignorant posts. I mean for crying out loud – who in their right mind doesn’t know the difference between “Stop” and “Steady”? It was all a game played at my expense -- at everyones expense; he pushed all the right buttons and it is my fault for taking part – it won’t happen again.

[grant]

Did you win??????

Heck no! =( There where 54 boats and 1st place was 8lbs... Not a good day on the lake.... =)