Training screw up

[Dirtysteve]

I messed up I was working my 6 month old GSP saturday on carded pigeons. He is pointing well but will not hold it very long. I had him on a check cord but I thought we were a ways off from the bird so I left him range a ways. Well the bird had gotten up and moved closer, he pointed but busted in before I could get ahold of him. The bird was tangled on some sage brush so it couldn't fly and he caught it.
Have I messed him up?
Can you get a dog to quit busting in on birds without a remote launcher? These are probably dumb questions but I am a rookie at this.
Brandon

[snips]

Brandon, a caught bird can happen to anyone, no biggie. I would not turn him loose on the CC until he is totally reliable tho. I don`t like formally steadying pups at that age simply because they they are so immature. But everyone does it different. To answer the last Q, yes you can steady a dog without launchers, but it helps to have a helper flush.

[birddog]

Hi Brandon, I am some what puzzled by your question: Is there a way to get your dog to stop busting birds without the use of a launcher, when you sent me an email about how you used the launcher on your friends dog to stop him/her from cripping and said your friend thought you to be a training genius, or something like that. Why wouldn't you try to use the same approach with your dog? If it was his launcher, wouldn't he let you use it?

As Snips said, there are other ways, but if you got your friends dog to stop creeping with 4 birds using the launcher why wouldn't you use it to stop your dog from busting? Or at least give it a try to see if it will work?

Janet

[Gregory]

First of all let me say that I don't agree with snips on this one. The dog should dictate when the steadying should begin and not his age....From the sound of things ,this dog is ready and if you don't get a handle now, later might be twice as hard... I know it will...
Yea, you can steady the dog with out the aid of a launcher..
But, aside from needing a helper, you will also need to aim high.
Antherword, your goal should not be just to steady the dog through the flush if you want him to be steady enough for you to make the flush...

G.

[TAK]

DS, no worries man! One bird is not the end of the game! If we took a poll I would guess the majority of use all have had a bird or two get caught!

Ya helpers and Launchers are great but not every one has the funds or the time to go training when you do.

Carding is great way to do it yourself. key factor make sure you are in a place that there is no chance of hang-ups with the birds.

I will pass on my opinion of a possible direction to take with your dog.... I would work the dog into the birds stopping them at first scent or and even allow him to bump the bird and then stop him right there with a SHORT CHECK Cord 8-12 feet. When I say stop I mean a pop of collar or what other training aid you use. The dog is going to get cautions the more you do this and begin to point.....

[TAK]

"Antherword, your goal should not be just to steady the dog through the flush if you want him to be steady enough for you to make the flush... "

Amen to that!!!!!!!

[dhondtm]

I think Cassi has caught 8 or so on her own. Six of those at her first hunt test. It's not the end of the world, trust me.

A remote launcher is definately a good thing to work the dogs, but can be difficult to setup and execute properly. I don't think it is a must though. I'm sure you can get a dog to steady just by using quick snaps of a check cord to correct them. Always use a verbal correction along with the quick snaps. Then after awhile it will only take a verbal command.

Once they are steady to flush I rolled my girl to steady her during the flush. I just let them run after the bird then yell out whoa just before they reach the end of the check cord a quick snap and they seem to quickly learn after a few of those. They start to only run about half the check cord length so I shorten it up on them. Hope that helps give you some ideas. Good Luck

[Gregory]

Launchers in my opinion is the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread....

I know no safer way in duplicating a wild bird flush as you can with the remote launcher.
Take the carded pigeon for instance, great way to train if your training field hapens to be a baseball field ,then you have to make sure there are no trees around.Besides that,the trainer has to prejudge how large a card the pigeon can handle .Like humans,dogs and birds, not all are created equal.....I see continual disaster until the trainer can figure how to use a carded pigeon properly. Dizzied birds, preserve birds much the same disaster a waits you unless you had a full time helper and even then you can't time the chain of events you have preplaned when things go wrong,or the chain of events that should have taken place for a particular situation as it was taking place.Anotherwords, the opertunity was lost,because it was beyond the trainers control...

I'm not one of those that believes it's okay for the dog to screw up with the idea if he screws up long enough and often enough he will eventually learn. Learn what? how to screw up more? Why am I there ?

Yea,one caough bird is not going to break the dog no more than one perfictly pointed bird is going to make the dog.But,if you continue to set the dog to fail,then that's what you will end up with..

The launcher along with the CC gives you the the trainer to carry out the chain of events you invisioned that must take place way before you and the dog toook the first step in to the training field...
If more first time trainers would spend their money buying a launcher for their first training tool on their list,instead of the Collar they'd end up with a better trained dog....IMHO...

Anyway, you can train the dog with out it, but you best have a well schooled helper and if you end up with a dog that went slack on you ,yep you going to need a remote launcher to tighten him up again.So, get busy, buy,borrow, or steal one:>)


G.

[doublea]

Greg is correct that first time trainers should put their money into something other than e-collars!

I do things a bit different in my training though -- I don't much care for launchers. I never felt they allowed the same volume of scent to hit the airwaves as a naturally planted bird. IMO they are invaluable when it comes time to fix a specific problem that involves a bird. But the problem as I see it for those who want to use them daily in their training program is that you must mark the location of the launcher with a ribbon or flag of some sort so as to judge how close the dog is to the contraption just in case and also so you can find it again after you pop the bird. Now with these flags and ribbons dancing all over the place, your pup is going to be looking for them instead of a bird in short order. Same thing will happen if you pile up some brush and place the launcher in or behind it. In other words the dog will be running a milk route on you and not hunting per say – at least not the way we want him too.

IMO the best advice is to use the launcher very sparingly. You might want to experiment with your bird planting technique and find a way to plant pigeons very very lightly so as they jump and fly with the slightest pressure. Another idea might be to change birds and go with Quail in a call back pen or something like that.

Now let me say again -- the launcher will work. Just don't over do it. Use it to fix your problem and then go back to planting birds the old fashion way.

[Dirtysteve]

Birddog
All I have is a manuel launcher and when I work him alone he has learned that when I bend down for the cord to pull that a bird is coming up so he has started creeping in. It works well with a helper to pull the bird but when alone he has it figured out. I even lengthend the cord but trying to hold a check cord and pull a longer cord is a pain. I quit using the launcher beacuse he was starting to develope these bad habits.
With my friends dog it worked wonders but I was there to pull for him. That is why I tried carding and for the most part it worked very well.
I should have given more details before I asked my question.

[TAK]

DS, use your feet to pop the bird. Step on the cord and then kick with the other. It does work. I have 3 manual and 4 remote launcers. Also if the dog will allow the handler to flush I always release even the remote launchers with my foot!

[birddog]

Hi Brandon, now I understand. Yes, unless you have a remote launcher you do need a helper. In the long run you would save time if you could invest in a remote launcher. As for the dog getting wise to the flag. I have taken a servey flag and attached it to a magnet. The magnet is then attached to the end of the launcher and I can turn the flag up or down to almost hide the flag in the grass. That way I can see where it is but the dog cannot. It really works. It also helps me find the launcher in heavey grass after training is over.

Janet

[Gregory]

I know there are many ways to train a dog as well as I know we live on Gods Green Earth.

Having said that, I also know there is no way to "time" the element of "deciet" or the element of "surprise" nor can you apply a level of "frustration" that needs to be applied to certain dogs to have them alter their behavior with out the aid of the remote launcher.....


Having built my first R launcher and still in use since the early 1980's, I found that a launcher carries much more scent than a dizzied bird in the bush, and by cutting a branch from a tree to stick in the ground next to the launcher, not only will it prevent a dog from ever learning to look for flags as most will,it also make things look as natural to the dog ,as nature intended it to look..

Then again, pleanty of dogs have been trained with just a piece of rope and a well schooled helper . But unless you are a big time pro trainer with an employee or two,or formed a partnership with a friend that wants his dog trained as badly you do, I see nothing good from going at it alone and I will go as far as saying to stay out of the training field unless you had help willing to follow your instuction... Anotherword, If you can't pull off alone, your intened purpse for being in the field in the first place ,go do something else ,or send a way for a remote launcher...In my opinion,FWIW...

G.

[sudiegirl]

what about turning your manual launcher into a remote launcher?

http://www.gundogforum.com/resources/Re ... rPlans.pdf

i think it is relatively inexpensive. several people on the forum have tried it, and it works very well!! then you wouldn't need a helper, and your dog would not be fooled by a cord.

[snips]

Before I knew anything of remote launchers and shock collars I think I turned out some real good dogs, and I never had a helper. Launchers have their good side, but only used as remote, and now, I would be lost without them. Just as e-collars can add to the finished product. Both of these tools in the wrong hands can go the wrong way if not introduced properly, and just one more reason I let dogs grow up and get their independence before restricting them to a CC. No matter how you look at it, once the CC is on and the learning begins, they are on it until reliable when birds are present. That inhibits them learning how to run free and hunt and find birds in areas that they would be naturally. As I see it, the pup may be trained without pressure, but will have pressure at some point when cut loose and a bird is not handled properly, and ANY dog is capable of screwing up. I am not looking to argue with anyone, I am just putting down some thoughts of how I do things, sometimes reading a pup is difficult to tell in what they are capable of, thats my reason for older is better. I never trained any dog in competition obedience or field until they were mature, and it pays off in the long run. In obedience a mature dog retains the teaching so much better, and keeps a much happier attitude. Thats where I figured it out (oh and Delmars book also). One of the very best parts of his book is the puppy part, much of the rest has been updated. But that part is great. A couple of thoughts on the launchers, we use them for laying the foundation on a dog, but dogs learn in 3's and if I did not have three pieces of work done on each dog, I don`t know how far you would get on 1 bird each time. If I could not have 3 launchers I think I would go with other birds and a helper. I do not keep dogs on launchers much more than a month, then they are moved to quail. Launchers are fake, and dogs start to figure it out. They can get bored with them or some dogs figure out that bird is sitting in that cage. I use pigeons and they put out a lttle more scent, which is good for starting dogs, helps them point out further and make it easier for you to train. Once they know their lessons on the pigeons, I switch to quail which will heighten their intensity and make them hunt harder. Obviously all this is not true for every dog, but true enough for so many that I apply it, and it works. Occasioally I have a dog that will not point a pigeon, My Logan would not, he`s now a 6 x Ch, so I taught him good yard work and got a helper to flush and did his training on quail.

[doublea]

Greg,

What kind of launcher are you using? The ones I have don't seem to let that much scent out. After all the bird is wrapped into some sort of sling which in turn is enclosed by a heavy wire mesh box. I would think that a bird planted properly on the ground where the air can get at all of it would give off more scent than one in a box -- IMO that's just common sense. But then I make no claims to having figured out the mystery behind air currents and wind direction, wind velocity or the effects of humidity and air temperature on bird scent. I do know that if you use a bird launcher it is a good idea to wear gloves when handling the darn things -- you don't want them smelling more like what you had for lunch than a bird! Same goes for planting birds -- wear gloves.

And like Brenda -- I have trained many fine dogs without the use of a launcher an e-collar or a helper. It can be done!

[Dirtysteve]

I have orderd the parts to build my own launcher
Thanks for all the advice.

[snips]

Alan we use Innotek Launchers. Never had a problem smelling. I don`t cover them in any heavy grass and I never use gloves. I set them in some tall grassy spots and if they need more camo I throw some pine needles over or break a little pine branch to lay on it.

[grant]

I messed up I was working my 6 month old GSP saturday on carded pigeons. He is pointing well but will not hold it very long. I had him on a check cord but I thought we were a ways off from the bird so I left him range a ways. Well the bird had gotten up and moved closer, he pointed but busted in before I could get ahold of him. The bird was tangled on some sage brush so it couldn't fly and he caught it.
Have I messed him up?
Can you get a dog to quit busting in on birds without a remote launcher? These are probably dumb questions but I am a rookie at this.
Brandon

Hi Steve,

Don't worry, even if he caught 15 birds and now tries to catch everyone he encounters, its typically an easy fix with repetition. I'm sure you could steady a dog without a launcher, as you could brush your teeth with your finger. Like the toothbrush, the launcher makes the task easier, faster, more precise. Its worth the cost and easy to use. Its a no brainer, but just be cautious when using the launcher. Hit the dog in the face with a stick and he'll fear the stick. Hit the dog in the face with a launcher and he'll fear the launcher/bird. Keep us posted!

[gone]

Steve where did you find parts to order for a launcher. Is it cheaper than just buying one? I am in need of one also, but don't really have a lot of money to spend.

[TAK]

Steve where did you find parts to order for a launcher. Is it cheaper than just buying one? I am in need of one also, but don't really have a lot of money to spend.

Me, I would get more than one..... It is costly but believe me you will be reseting birds more than working the dog on them!
Get with 12 Volt he was talking some time ago about getting some. There is your helper too. Also have 12 volt bring oyu out to my place and we can work some dogs. I am sure he is about ready to get Cowboy broke! I also PM'd you about the training Seminar that the GUPDC club is hosting with Dave Walker......

[grant]

Steve where did you find parts to order for a launcher. Is it cheaper than just buying one? I am in need of one also, but don't really have a lot of money to spend.

http://www.gundogforum.com/resources/Re ... rPlans.pdf

[Gregory]

Greg,

What kind of launcher are you using? The ones I have don't seem to let that much scent out. After all the bird is wrapped into some sort of sling which in turn is enclosed by a heavy wire mesh box. I would think that a bird planted properly on the ground where the air can get at all of it would give off more scent than one in a box -- IMO that's just common sense. But then I make no claims to having figured out the mystery behind air currents and wind direction, wind velocity or the effects of humidity and air temperature on bird scent. I do know that if you use a bird launcher it is a good idea to wear gloves when handling the darn things -- you don't want them smelling more like what you had for lunch than a bird! Same goes for planting birds -- wear gloves.

And like Brenda -- I have trained many fine dogs without the use of a launcher an e-collar or a helper. It can be done!

Sounds like what you've seen is what I have.
What you are not taking in to account is that scent acumulates on the screen mesh the launchers catapult is made from.


That's why a smart and experienced trainer :>) would make sure he sewed a catapults sling for every type of bird he was going to run through his launcher.. Example.If I were to switch from pigeons to quail I will also exchange the catapults sling with a fresh one, that way I don't confuse the dog in training by planting something that didn't quit smell like one or the other.

What I just wrote for you above Alan, falls under the heading " sorting things though" anotherwords, Know what you want to take place,before you and the dog set foot in the training field... And if you can't pull it off as you invisioned the training session, best then, to go dod some yard work instead .You not only should be able to see what's going to take place between bird and beast, before it hapens, you should also be able to forsee where it's going to take place with the available scenting conditions the day and the hour you intend to train will afford you.. Anotherwords, "train with a purpose in mind".... Or you will have your dog catching a bird, and if you think a dog catching a birds is not going to set you back, just look at the dogs that were preserve hunted.Never seen one yet that wasn't a creeper or a bird scooping fool.That's why I say, "dogs learn what we allowed them to learn"

It's one thing to say, "I've trained many of fine dog with out the launcher and the helper" And onother, to tell us how you did it. I think it would be educational to all,if you did.


G

[doublea]

Brenda,

Several years ago a training buddy and I bought a bunch of those "EZ-Launchers" and neither of us cared for them -- matter of fact I think Andy was so disgusted with his that he threw them in the trash or gave them away. Anyway, like I said earlier--I don't think they smell right. And yes -- we even put them into a Johnny house and/or flight pen hoping to get them to smell like a bird instead of whatever they smelled like all ready. I don't know maybe it was the paint they used or something in the material used to make the sling, but nothing we could think of seemed to work to improve these launchers. I do know that darn near every dog Andy and I worked on a bird in a launcher flagged the find. One male even went so far as to hike a leg over the launcher with the bird in it mind you -- he never blinked a find or lacked intensity on birds that were planted on the ground though -- he even went on to finish as a 1x NSTRA Champion. It all told me there was something goofy in Denmark when it came to these EZ-Launchers.

Now to answer Greg’s question on how to train a dog without a launcher or a helper -- it's called the K.I.S.S. method Greg -- Keep It Simple Stupid! It almost sounds as though you don't think a dog can be trained without a launcher Greg! Kinda funny that you are so against the e-collar being used as a training tool and yet at the same time you are pro mechanical bird launcher-- you know, I hear rumor you even bought an e-collar. What happened to your "As Nature Intended" thought process? Curious change of heart there Greg!
You know-- I would be curious to know just how many fine dogs were trained prior to the bird launchers invention-- after all didn't you say you invented the bird launcher about 20 years ago or was it something else you invented? Al Gore claims he invented the internet so I know it wasn't that!! Whatever!! :roll:
Anyway-- a check cord combined with a training program that does not create dog problems as it goes is as simple as it gets Greg. In a nut shell here is the recipe: Young dog taken afield and given a good dose of wild birds until such time as the dog shows an honest to goodness scent point as well as intro'd to the gun followed by yard training followed by breaking the dog "Stop to Flush" and then going back staunching on point with good flying Quail or Chuckar. Then if needed Force Breaking to Retrieve and continuing through SWSF as per customer needs on more of those good flying Quail or Chuckar that are lightly and properly planted on the ground. It should go without saying -- I don't use a retrieve as a reward or do I ask the dog to retrieve every bird we encounter or shoot even after they are broke. I then finish up and polish up the dog by continuing to work with the dog on patterning, maintaining obedience and field handling – all things learned during yard training. Only after the dog is broke on his birds and the very last thing I do is I will work on backing (a good place to use those launchers). Now I have left out some of the finer points in this program Greg -- but I think you get the basic idea -- it's pretty simple and it tends to work for more than just one dog or one breed of dog like some of the methods espoused by some on these boards. What’s more it does not require the additional purchase of e-collar or bird launcher. Fact is all one needs is a check cord, a whistle, a field with birds to work the dog and a blank gun and one can train a bird dog pretty easy! Remember Greg - a smart and experienced trainer knows this and uses it in their training program-- K.I.S.S. – Keep It Simple Stupid!!

P.S. As Brenda also said she has trained some fine dogs without a launcher or a helper -- I am curious as to how much different her method is from mine. I am guessing they would be pretty close to the same.

[llewgor]

what was the question steve not a problem one bird no big. nobody's perfect in training a dog and you learn as you go along. sometimes you get ideas from us and you apply what works for you. launchers are fun but you don't have to have them. people trained dogs before launchers and computers.

[Gregory]

Brenda,

Several years ago a training buddy and I bought a bunch of those "EZ-Launchers" and neither of us cared for them -- matter of fact I think Andy was so disgusted with his that he threw them in the trash or gave them away. Anyway, like I said earlier--I don't think they smell right. And yes -- we even put them into a Johnny house and/or flight pen hoping to get them to smell like a bird instead of whatever they smelled like all ready. I don't know maybe it was the paint they used or something in the material used to make the sling, but nothing we could think of seemed to work to improve these launchers. I do know that darn near every dog Andy and I worked on a bird in a launcher flagged the find. One male even went so far as to hike a leg over the launcher with the bird in it mind you -- he never blinked a find or lacked intensity on birds that were planted on the ground though -- he even went on to finish as a 1x NSTRA Champion. It all told me there was something goofy in Denmark when it came to these EZ-Launchers.

Now to answer Greg’s question on how to train a dog without a launcher or a helper -- it's called the K.I.S.S. method Greg -- Keep It Simple Stupid! It almost sounds as though you don't think a dog can be trained without a launcher Greg! Kinda funny that you are so against the e-collar being used as a training tool and yet at the same time you are pro mechanical bird launcher-- you know, I hear rumor you even bought an e-collar. What happened to your "As Nature Intended" thought process? Curious change of heart there Greg!
You know-- I would be curious to know just how many fine dogs were trained prior to the bird launchers invention-- after all didn't you say you invented the bird launcher about 20 years ago or was it something else you invented? Al Gore claims he invented the internet so I know it wasn't that!! Whatever!! :roll:
Anyway-- a check cord combined with a training program that does not create dog problems as it goes is as simple as it gets Greg. In a nut shell here is the recipe: Young dog taken afield and given a good dose of wild birds until such time as the dog shows an honest to goodness scent point as well as intro'd to the gun followed by yard training followed by breaking the dog "Stop to Flush" and then going back staunching on point with good flying Quail or Chuckar. Then if needed Force Breaking to Retrieve and continuing through SWSF as per customer needs on more of those good flying Quail or Chuckar that are lightly and properly planted on the ground. It should go without saying -- I don't use a retrieve as a reward or do I ask the dog to retrieve every bird we encounter or shoot even after they are broke. I then finish up and polish up the dog by continuing to work with the dog on patterning, maintaining obedience and field handling – all things learned during yard training. Only after the dog is broke on his birds and the very last thing I do is I will work on backing (a good place to use those launchers). Now I have left out some of the finer points in this program Greg -- but I think you get the basic idea -- it's pretty simple and it tends to work for more than just one dog or one breed of dog like some of the methods espoused by some on these boards. What’s more it does not require the additional purchase of e-collar or bird launcher. Fact is all one needs is a check cord, a whistle, a field with birds to work the dog and a blank gun and one can train a bird dog pretty easy! Remember Greg - a smart and experienced trainer knows this and uses it in their training program-- K.I.S.S. – Keep It Simple Stupid!!

P.S. As Brenda also said she has trained some fine dogs without a launcher or a helper -- I am curious as to how much different her method is from mine. I am guessing they would be pretty close to the same.

First of all Alan. My post didn't say I invented the remote launcher.What I said and you well know it .I said I been using remote launchers since the early eighties when I built my very first home job, as in home made.. I still use them today...
And second of all ,you knew for some time that I owned and e collar for breaking deer and critter chasing,I made that know to you in person and I also made it known on the Upland.Now if you heard a rumor that I use one for training,then I have to saywho ever told you is a lier.But you knew that...

No alan a smart and experienced trainer when asked a direct question as I did of you would have given me a direct answer,and would not have gone in to 1000 word gibbbirsh. So I ask you again how would a newbie go about training his dog with out a HELPER or REMOTE LAUNCHER.... Answer that one please...

I know you said he should let the dog get all fired up on wild birds, but lets assume there are no wild birds where he lives.. Answer that one please.... What's step B as in your K.I.S.S method.

You also said that you would train the dog to be steady to Flush.That's well and good on the natural that allows you to walk in for the flush.. But how about the dog that learned to creep or came in to the world as a creeper. Answer that one as well...
And one final question. How would you as a trainer steady a dog to be steady through the flush that's been allowed to bump and chaise that instead of learning to point he learned instead to love the chase. Answer that one as well.But use the K.I.S.S. method to explain as in keep it simple stupid!!!


Take us step by step now....


G

[Ayres]

If you build your own, you may want to go ahead and try to build three or four. The more you build at a time, the cheaper they are per launcher.

The best thing about building your own with the 2-way radios is that you can have one remote to launch a ton of traps. (one for every frequency/lockout code combo)

What I've been training with down at the Hunting Preserve is a set of 4. That way, if you have to lose one or two due to creeping, you can still get the dog to point on a couple without having to always stop and reset.

I also agree that the remote-release launcher is a great and effective tool to use. There has been a lot of development in the dog training world (evidenced here by a ton of different ways to do something), and I say that anything that makes your training easier... take advantage of it! That's the way to K.I.S.S.

Also, if you have any trouble with those remote release plans, send me a PM and I'll do my best to help.

About the dilemma.. just think about it this way: one mistake is bound to happen. Nothing that happens so infrequently is immune to being fixed by repitition.

[Dirtysteve]

Ayres
Thanks for the help I will let you know if that works.
I ordered enought parts to make 2 of them..now if I can just get one to work.