Pointer Training

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:26 am

I don't know if this has been posted before, or if anyone here wrote this, but I found this site EXTREMELY HELPFUL. It is written for Brittany's, but should apply to all pointing breeds.

http://www.brittanygundogs.com/Brittany_training.htm

Jon

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:42 pm

There is much with what Dave says that I agree with.Then there is the "whoa..." While I am in agreement that the dog should not move by himself after the whoa command is given, at the same time I don't believe the dog should be eased by a gentle whoa in to a point. Actually, he sort of conterdicts himself . First he says the dog should be taught to point at first scent, which I aghree with.Then he implys,or suggests to use whoa to stop the dogs creeping,which I do not agree that the whoa command has any busness being used by a trainer around bird work..IMO.
G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:02 pm

If you don't use "whoa" to stop creeping or roading...do you use it while staunching your dog on point? What about breaking the dog to wing and shot...ever say "Whoa" then? I agree with you Greg...Whoa is not something you use to "put" a dog on point. But common practice says it is the single most important command we use to enforce obedience around birds both before and after the shot. How would one go about enforcing this obedience without ever saying a word to the dog? Is this silent process that you have spoken of before any more difficult or time consuming? Does an e-collar replace the need to say "Whoa" to the dog?

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Gregory,
I absolutely agree that the command "Whoa," should not be used to ease a dog into point. It does make it clear that the dog should establish the point on his own, and the "whoa" command should only used to hold the point until released. The following is from page 13 of the article:
"Whoa is taught to help teach pup to understand to hold his/her point after pup has already established point on his own. We never "whoa" a dog into point. We teach the dog to naturallly point by using strong flying quail/pigeons......."

It is a HUGE article, and you may have missed that. I am by no means saying this is the end all be all of training articles. I just wanted to inform others of what I found.

Jon

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:42 pm

MNGSP wrote:Gregory,
I absolutely agree that the command "Whoa," should not be used to ease a dog into point. It does make it clear that the dog should establish the point on his own, and the "whoa" command should only used to hold the point until released. The following is from page 13 of the article:
"Whoa is taught to help teach pup to understand to hold his/her point after pup has already established point on his own. We never "whoa" a dog into point. We teach the dog to naturallly point by using strong flying quail/pigeons......."

It is a HUGE article, and you may have missed that. I am by no means saying this is the end all be all of training articles. I just wanted to inform others of what I found.

Jon

MnGSP.

You are correct I did not bother to read the whole article and I hope no one assumed that I did.

It has been said many times,by me as well as others that there are manyways to train the dog as there are as many Philosophycal differences between trainers. While I do understand the philosophy associated with Whoa and with most trainers.. I do feel the time it takes to Whoa break a dog to where now he can be commanded to lock all fours or to perform a task that is not/ did not come to him naturally. To me, taking that approach to the dogs training will not only use up valuable time that could have been used to have the dog think, every thing good and desirable the trainers was able to teach the dog was the dogs idea and not the trainers. Plus the pressures most trainers will put the dog through have him stop or stay stopped on command, may stay with the dog life time. And even if you could stop him from taking a bird out or stop his creeping, by the use of the Whoa command,There are no guarranties the trainer/handler will always be in the ideal position to give the command.. Personnaly, ----and I am not here to tell anyone that my ways is better.-- It is for me--- I much spend a bit more time on the CC showing the dog he should have pointed when he first made scent and not give him the opportunity to get in a good side of bad traits. Another word,I'm not going to give him a chance to learn, how to bump,creep, pounce,.That way, I will not have to put any preassures to undo what I allowed him to learn in most cases,nor will I ever have to rely on the e collar (sorry grant) to inforce what I failed to teach through and through. I do teach my dogs whoa,but only for as another way of furthering the dog along in the complience Department.

Alan. I don't have to utter the "whoa" command for him to ease in to a point or to stop him from chaising after the flush if I were breaking him out..... I simply let him figure out through a form of repetitiveness and through the feel of the pinch collar -not all dogs- most though. That it is not cool to run in to a slack check cord.Then have him be put back where he broke his point to chaise.

G.

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:22 pm

Lets say for the sake of this conversation your dog breaks, hits the end of his Check cord and you set him back. When you set him back do you then say anything to the dog to tie the correct action of staying put into the obedience you have all ready taught the dog, i.e. the Whoa command”? If not why not, what did you teach the dog “Whoa” for?

I agree with you that there are times when saying “whoa” to a dog is pointless, e.g. when the dog is working a bird ¼ mile in front of you. Or any time you’re not in a position to enforce the command.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:58 pm

doublea wrote:Lets say for the sake of this conversation your dog breaks, hits the end of his Check cord and you set him back. When you set him back do you then say anything to the dog to tie the correct action of staying put into the obedience you have all ready taught the dog, i.e. the Whoa command”? If not why not, what did you teach the dog “Whoa” for?

I agree with you that there are times when saying “whoa” to a dog is pointless, e.g. when the dog is working a bird ¼ mile in front of you. Or any time you’re not in a position to enforce the command.

What makes you think by saying whoa to a dog you are connecting a correct action. Setting him back where he broke from is showing him enough.....

That's right, if you are relying on whoa" there will be many times for one reason or another that you will not be able to, or the dog will know that you are in no position to command him to whoa, and he will do what he was allowed to do that caused you to have to say Whao" to him in the first place..... That's why I don't abide by that philosophy. Now i'm not saying , anyone has to do what I do. But, it just might be worth your while to bounce it around in your mind to see if it makes sense or not.

It also needs to be said, when I get ready to break a dog to steady to wing shot and fall there are little tricks that I do in my back yard that involves working with birds to condition the dog, prior the breaking prosses in the bird field, that goes long way in eliminating the pressure associated with the prosses.... Anyway, i hope this does not come across as though I am getting off the topic as it all ties in together as to why I don't have to use the Whoa command around birds,from start to finish...........

G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:16 am

I have often believed the idea of teaching a dog to "Whoa" was to teach him to stop and stay put...which is exactly what you are trying to teach the dog to do when you pick him up and set him back after the flush of a bird, right? So what harm is there in saying "whoa" to him as you set him back...might make the connection and the understanding a little easier on the dog don't you think?

Now let me hassen to add that a "Trained" dog does not need to hear "whoa" around birds. But a pup that is not yet fully trained certainly does.

Post by **grant** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:22 am

doublea wrote:So what harm is there in saying "whoa" to him as you set him back...might make the connection and the understanding a little easier on the dog don't you think?

Now let me hassen to add that a "Trained" dog does not need to hear "whoa" around birds. But a pup that is not yet fully trained certainly does.

I agree =)

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:33 am

There s NO harm in using Whoa in your training. When people get in trouble with Whoa is when they abuse it. When a dog accosiated the word with getting shocked or slammed or some sort of training abuse, thats when the dog breaks down with he saying of the word. If a dog is properly taught the meaning of standing still associated with he word, then they will not have a problem. You can certainly train a dog not to move on a bird withut saying anything, but I wan a backup if I need it. All the training in the world does not make that dog fail safe. That test at Darbys when Chance pointed the 2 birds walking, then I flushed and 1 went about 6 feet, I was real glad my dog knew what Whoa meant. It took 1 cautioning then I reflushed. All was OK...

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:53 am

That is right,no harm in saying whoa to a dog if you wish after you picked him up and set him back. Then again there is no real reason to use whoa after you set him if you have not used whoa to steady him on birds from the get go.

And the thing you are forgetting,-most of you--- is that if you do not talk to your dog he will learn to pay attention for other signs to cue off of. After all We all like to think we can read dog mannerism and if that's a good thing as I think it is ,then why not keep it closed to give your dog a chance to learn about your manerrisms, or better yet your boddy language... So in my opinion, there is more attached to my madness then just the mere thought of not using the Whoa command around birds...

G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:59 am

Like Brenda---I want a back up...a plan "B". Gosh that twice now we have agreed with each other Brenda !

If you say we shouldn't use "whoa" our training, why would we want to waste the time teaching the command to our dog in the first place Greg? Does it have a role at all in any other area? Without teaching the dog "Whoa" or using the command around birds--how does one keep the dog from retrieving his shot bird reward without first being commanded to do so? What stops him from chasing non-game, or crossing a busy freeway?

And how is your dog supposed to cue off your body language and mannerisms if he can't see you? You mentioned one time that you want to be your dogs partner while in the field. How can you be if you don't work with and for your dog? I agree that consant chatter is no good---but a well timed "I see you" lets the dog know your still in the field with him, still working with him, still being his partner.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:47 am

doublea wrote:How is your dog supposed to cue off your body language and mannerisms if he can't see you? You mentioned one time that you want to be your dogs partner while in the field. How can you be if you don't work with and for your dog? I agree that consant chatter is no good---but a well timed "I see you" lets the dog know your still in the field with him, still working with him, still being his partner.

Ah!

That's why I been saying Alan, Whoa has nothing to do with birds,around birds and or any other form of training of the bird dog durring bird work. haven't i been saying that I train my dogs not to rely for verbal commands. So if I haven't used whoa on the dog durring his training to the point where he is reliable with out it.Then he has no need to cue off my boddy langauge to do his job.. You are missing totally what I'm trying to get across to you.
My dog Pete Alan, knows at all times where I am, I do not have to talk to him for him to know I am on my way to do the killing. Besides that, I don't need the whistle for him to know where I am. He cues off of my boddy in knowing when to change directions so we can continue to hunt together as a team. If I do my job as a trainer he will also know to use caution by the way I approach him durring the criticle time when most things can go wrong---the "flush". and not all my approaches will be the same. some times I will need to approach a bit quicker,other times from far and wide, while still there may be times when i have to come directly from behind him, and other times I might have to eaaaaaaase in . With each example I have related through my actions or mannerisms something to the dog.He can't do otherwise ,but cue of off me. providing I did my job and kept it shut durring his training.......

What we are talking about here Alan, is philosophycal approaches to training. There are no rights or wrongs here. What you don't understand is my philosophy behind what I do and the reason for your line of questioning.

G.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:04 am

doublea wrote:Like Brenda---I want a back up...a plan "B". Gosh that twice now we have agreed with each other Brenda !

If you say we shouldn't use "whoa" our training, why would we want to waste the time teaching the command to our dog in the first place Greg? Does it have a role at all in any other area? Without teaching the dog "Whoa" or using the command around birds--how does one keep the dog from retrieving his shot bird reward without first being commanded to do so? What stops him from chasing non-game, or crossing a busy freeway?

And how is your dog supposed to cue off your body language and mannerisms if he can't see you? You mentioned one time that you want to be your dogs partner while in the field. How can you be if you don't work with and for your dog? I agree that consant chatter is no good---but a well timed "I see you" lets the dog know your still in the field with him, still working with him, still being his partner.

Why teach whoa to a dog Alan, beside for the convintional wisdom? well, I thought I stated my reasons why I train my dogs whoa on several occasions . I'll state them again for you. I teach them whoa as another way to further complienec. I could of course exchange "whoa" for "down" or "Stop" or "walk back words" And If I can get the dog to do anyone of those three tasks,then what do I have Alan. A complient dog, and obidient dog a dog with manners a dog that is more apt to comply at other areas that I might want him to......

G..

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:23 am

Greg,

Conventional wisdom says to use "Whoa" while breaking the dog on birds!

As to your compliance idea---You say you teach the command but you never use it. If that's the case then what's the dog supposed to comply with if you never say "Whoa" ? Again--why did you teach the dog to "Whoa" in the first place? You obviously do not see value in or a need for the command.

Do you teach the dog to come when called, or do you just reel him in on a check cord until he figures out by your body language what you want?

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:00 am

I just thought that I'd add that although this is a bit off of the original topic I wanted to share with everyone, I feel that conversations like this are good for all of us. They help us to think about the many options out there for training our dogs. I will be training my first pointer this summer, and conversations like this help me understand the meanings behind some of the training methods. Thanks.

Jon

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:01 am

Why don't you guys take it to e-mail or agree to disagree? The endless debate is fruitless...and boring.

Best regards,

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:05 am

Ahh Greg come on man--this is good stuff!

I'm just trying to get him to tell us more--tell us why. If you find that to be boring---you might want to take up Golf! Sides that--ain't nobody forcing you to read it!!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:00 pm

doublea wrote:Ahh Greg come on man--this is good stuff!

I'm just trying to get him to tell us more--tell us why. If you find that to be boring---you might want to take up Golf! Sides that--ain't nobody forcing you to read it!!

Alan,

It's boring because I've seen it all before...more than once and on more than one forum...and haven't seen any good come of it.

Why don't each of you open a thread and discuss your respective methods starting with assumptions?

Best regards,

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:27 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
doublea wrote:Ahh Greg come on man--this is good stuff!

I'm just trying to get him to tell us more--tell us why. If you find that to be boring---you might want to take up Golf! Sides that--ain't nobody forcing you to read it!!
Alan,

It's boring because I've seen it all before...more than once and on more than one forum...and haven't seen any good come of it.

Why don't each of you open a thread and discuss your respective methods starting with assumptions?

Best regards,

Hey Greg what is boring to you may not very well be boring to the next fellow that reads this thread.

Am I now suppose to run by you what ever I am thinking to post.. See what I mean Greg.
Best regards...

G

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:36 pm

I believe the original post was in regards to pointing us to an info. site, not to nit pick over who's way is better. Let's stick to the subject or not say anything. Subjects going off topic need to be started on another thread or done amongst each other privately.

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:40 pm

Well Gregory...looks like their gonna clip our wings! Nice chatting with ya--it was fun and informative while it lasted!

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:42 pm

doublea wrote:Greg,

Conventional wisdom says to use "Whoa" while breaking the dog on birds!

As to your compliance idea---You say you teach the command but you never use it. If that's the case then what's the dog supposed to comply with if you never say "Whoa" ? Again--why did you teach the dog to "Whoa" in the first place? You obviously do not see value in or a need for the command.

Do you teach the dog to come when called, or do you just reel him in on a check cord until he figures out by your body language what you want?

So? does that mean we all have to go with the conventional way of thinking. If it's so, i would be using the E collar and call it a training tool as it seems to be the signature tool of the day... I don't though, and I still manage to train dogs to be Steady to Wing shot and fall.. Which by the way should tell you something,if you momentarily can seperate yourself from what ever you are heck bent on proving.....

I told you Alan why I teach whoa to my dogs,if it wasn't for that I wouldn't teach them the whoa command at all.......Do I teach them the come command. Of course and if what I said earlier regarding the whao had registered with you, you would not have had the need to ask me if I teach the come command to my dogs:>)

So, as i see it Alan, it is not me that is having a problem, it is you , for not having a good grasp on animal behavior. Cause if you did, you would have spared me all your questions..

So bottom line Alan, if you dodn't agree with my methods,that's okay cause I am not trying to force them on you or on anyone else.
So we will have to agree to disagree on this one and on all other topics. Cause I see a pattern forming with you and I do not like it .

Have a great day bub.

G.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:49 pm

doublea wrote:Well Gregory...looks like their gonna clip our wings! Nice chatting with ya--it was fun and informative while it lasted!

I can't say that I blame them Alan. It was you that kept pushing the question,while I on the otherhand was trying to answer them as best as I could.....And it was not fun!!!

G.

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 pm

Up till that last post I thought we were having a good, informative and POLITE discussion on dog training. I thought maybe someone could; bad word here--LEARN something. Guess I was wrong eh bub?

Looks like 'ol Greg Jennings was right--nothing good can or will come of it!

Good day to ya Gregory..

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:03 pm

Gregory wrote:
I can't say that I blame them Alan. It was you that kept pushing the question,while I on the otherhand was trying to answer them as best as I could.....And it was not fun!!!

G.

Well Duh!! How do you suppose someone is going to figure out what your talking bout Greg? You're methods are not standard and if one does not ask the question--you don't explain yourself! Just as was the case with that "GSP you been shooting birds over since he was 12-weeks-old" and later decided you do not shoot birds for a dog till "waaaaay after he is staunch on point"! But someplace tween the time he was 12-weeks old and the time he was staunch on point you use a retrieve as a reward!!! Yeah Greg your right that one did go over my head--I bet it went over allot of heads!

Someone needs to question you in oder to find out what the heck yer talkin bout Greg!!!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:03 pm

A Public Service Announcement:

People don't get PNGed from forums for providing information. They get PNGed for being argumentative or being personal.

Take it for what it's worth,

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:33 pm

doublea wrote:
Gregory wrote:
I can't say that I blame them Alan. It was you that kept pushing the question,while I on the otherhand was trying to answer them as best as I could.....And it was not fun!!!

G.
Well Duh!! How do you suppose someone is going to figure out what your talking bout Greg? You're methods are not standard and if one does not ask the question--you don't explain yourself! Just as was the case with that "GSP you been shooting birds over since he was 12-weeks-old" and later decided you do not shoot birds for a dog till "waaaaay after he is staunch on point"! But someplace tween the time he was 12-weeks old and the time he was staunch on point you use a retrieve as a reward!!! Yeah Greg your right that one did go over my head--I bet it went over allot of heads!

Someone needs to question you in oder to find out what the heck yer talkin bout Greg!!!

Not trying to make this one personal Alan. But since you are still having trouble understanding as to how I could shoot over a 3 month old pup. Maybe what you can't phantom Alan , is that a 3 month old pup can be steady enough on point to where i felt good about killing a bird for him. You know we do get lucky some times and end up getting a put that steady on point straight out of the shoot. Give that some though ,before you continue to hammer at me...

That's the last reply to you Alan.

Have a great day, and I mean that in a nice way...

G

G

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:35 pm

Greg,

Why certainly Greg, I have seen 3-month old pups that had a good natural staunch point! Heck I have seen 8-week old pups that would stand point long enough for me walk in to flush the bird--you seen 'em too, they were running round the yard while you were here!!

My only problem with your comments is that you don’t seem to tell us the whole story. I don’t mean to make this personal either Greg. But some of what your saying doesn’t make no sense at all man. Fact is it flies in the face of tried and true time proven training techniques!! Now after sitting down and talking with you in person and seeing your dogs in the field, I think I have a pretty good grasp on what your doing and why—but the rest of the folks out there in cyberland don’t. That’s why I am asking you the questions that I am Greg—sorry if you feel like I am putting you on the spot. I didn't figure that someone as confident in there methods as you are or seem to be would mind answering simple questions. Guess I was wrong--guess from now on I'll just let what you say stand--set it in stone as being true and just the way it is!

P.S. Nobody ever said an e-collar was a conventional way of dog training--common yes, but certainly not conventional!

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:00 pm

MNGSP wrote:I just thought that I'd add that although this is a bit off of the original topic I wanted to share with everyone, I feel that conversations like this are good for all of us. They help us to think about the many options out there for training our dogs. I will be training my first pointer this summer, and conversations like this help me understand the meanings behind some of the training methods. Thanks.

Jon

Jon.

I too think threads like this one are informative .
But not when a poster gets hammered time after time by the same individual, simply because he didn't like the answer,or didn't have the ability to comprehand what was explained . My personal opinion is,this board needs more people participating in discussions such as this one and if it drifts side ways from time to time it wouldn't matter much providing there were more than two taking part in the dicussion...

I also think, although I didn't get a chance to say. Dave Jones has a good site with lots of neat things in his training methods for the new guy /gal on the block.

Sorry that I had to take part in the high jacking of your thread.
Best.
Gregory......

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:23 am

Jon,

I would bet you all the tea in China that you could ask the hows and whys of the training methods employed by folks like me, Brenda Roe, Maurice, Grant and so on and not only would they be similar but we would also do our level best to explain them too you and clearly answer any questions you had about them--that's the purpose of this site IMO--to help people train dogs. I assure you that we would not make you feel as though you were not smart enough to understand or make you feel sorry and want to apologize for asking the question in the first place. More importantly though-- we would not turn drama queen and cry about someone asking questions or challenging our way of doing things!! That's how we learn isn't it--by questioning--by challenging?

I have long held the belief that if one is confident in what they are doing and has the knowledge to back up that confidence--then answering questions about how and why should be no problem--in fact the one being questioned should be flattered as it shows someone else is interested in their knowledge and wants to learn from them.

A college professor of mine once said: There are no stupid questions---just stupid answers!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:11 pm

Doublea,

I have read the posts you have made on this thread and haven't learned a thing about training a dog. And now I have made one too, and it won't teach anyone a thing either. That is what happens when we start challanging a person instead of talking about training a dog.

What say we just drop this whole thing and get back on track. There is not a single person that uses this thread that wants to hear a personnal debate by you. If you feel a need to do that then do it privately and not here on this forum.

Ezzy

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:43 pm

Debate??

I don't remember no debate! I was asking simple questions---you know-- those things one asks when he wants to better understand the issue. Saddly though I must agree and say your correct in that we learned nothing of Gregory's methods--maybe we would have if Greg would have taken my obvious cue and answered the questions though.

Funny thing about this whole thread---I understand and use virtually the same silent training method myself. Greg knows that--at least he should. He and I shot several birds over dogs that we never said a word or a "Whoa" to--and they were my dogs that I trained! So if you want to get this train back on the track--I would be happy to answer those questions that Greg couldn't or wouldn't.

IMHO it's too bad Greg seems to have forgot we train the same way.

MNGSP · Post by **MNGSP** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:54 pm

Allright guys....It sounds as if there has been more than one of these types of discussions between you two. You both bring up good points about each training method. It doesn't have to get personal. It's just simply differing opinions. No one method is better than the other. Each method will work better for certain trainers and for certain dogs. I think simple apologies are needed, and you'll just need to agree to disagree as was stated before.

I don't want to sound rude as the new guy on the block....but you guys started dragging me into it, addressing me and then attacking each other.

If anyone has any comments on the training site...feel free to post them. I think it shows a good sequence to follow in training pointers...

Jon

Post by **grant** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:58 pm

I'll give it a look tonight...

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:03 pm

There is some good stuff in there Jon. As with all things "take what you like and leave the rest".

Bad thing about talking dog traiing is that at times it can become almost like talking politics or religion.

My mentor and good friend J.D. Marti once said: You can talk bad about a mans wife---but you talk bad of his dog and them's fightin' words!

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:25 pm

It's a good read...lots of info to think about on it.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:29 pm

doublea wrote:Debate??

I don't remember no debate! I was asking simple questions---you know-- those things one asks when he wants to better understand the issue. Saddly though I must agree and say your correct in that we learned nothing of Gregory's methods--maybe we would have if Greg would have taken my obvious cue and answered the questions though.

Funny thing about this whole thread---I understand and use virtually the same silent training method myself. Greg knows that--at least he should. He and I shot several birds over dogs that we never said a word or a "Whoa" to--and they were my dogs that I trained! So if you want to get this train back on the track--I would be happy to answer those questions that Greg couldn't or wouldn't.

IMHO it's too bad Greg seems to have forgot we train the same way.

You and I don't train the same way Alan. If we did you would have know what in heck I was talking about. And besides, aren't you contradicting yourself by saying we train alike? it was only yesterday you were attaching yourself to Brenda's and few others methods.I'm the first to admit I don't train anything like those you attached yourself too nor do I train like your mentor Jim Marti. Not that they train bad,or anything, nor am I saying my methods are better. I like to think they are my own methods,good or bad......

No, I think your intent was something more that just to learn something new or for the benefit of the board. I cut you short Alan, once I realized your game plan....and not because I was afraid to answer your questions....Which they were asnwered more than once,anyway......

This is a different kind of a board Alan, and if you want people to learn you will have to forgo your tactics of old......I'm not going to do a CR with you on this board..

Best.
G

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:38 am

The title of this thread is "Pointer training" so I don't think I'm off base by asking this here. I've been thinking about this a while and correct me if I'm wrong. Once I start checkcording my dog into birds in a controlled situation, I should not allow my dog off the check cord to run and make contacts with wild birds until I get the performance I want from her in the controlled scenarios. I like taking my dogs for runs out on the praire but I could go backwards in what I've been trying to teach my pup if she flushes and chases. Is that right? Am I on the right track?

Tom

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:18 pm

You are right on. No more fun for awhile, it would make your job training him twice as hard because he`d be doing everything you are telling him not to do on a CC. I usually like to run my young dogs from a 4 wheeler, but once their training starts they are grounded for several months or until I believe they are reliable if they encounter a bird on the run.

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:16 pm

Thanks

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:14 pm

snips wrote:You are right on. No more fun for awhile, it would make your job training him twice as hard because he`d be doing everything you are telling him not to do on a CC. I usually like to run my young dogs from a 4 wheeler, but once their training starts they are grounded for several months or until I believe they are reliable if they encounter a bird on the run.

Good post Brenda
To add to a well put post by Brenda... If you see the dog start to get a little soft at the end of the check cord. Find yourself a good place to free run her dry no birdsand no chance of them! All work and no play some times sets you back a bit....