"Silent Hunting, No whistles no whoas"

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:57 am

Sorry Janet. I hope you don't mind me using the title to your tape...

I wonder how many of us knowingly or unknowingly actually stop and think where voice commands are needed to a well trained dog from good breeding, in a hunting situation or even in a field trail.
For the life of me I can sicerely say, if you got on the right track from day one with your dogs training you will not need to utter a word to have the dog know exctly where you are at all times,and what his job aught to be .....IMO
What do you all think.
Greg.

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:47 am

Can you elaborate a bit more?

Thanks Greg...

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:01 am

Are you saying that if I were to go on a hunt with you, I would never hear you command the dog to do anything?

My bunch tends to stay about within about 100 yrds when hunting and about 200 yrds in a field trail. I'm happy with that. Not in a field trail, but when hunting, I've thought Bell was on point from a distance, but as I got closer, she is looking around for me. When she see's me, she continues to hunt. I like that, but I've never directly taught it and she only does it a few times in a hunt. My guess is that it was developed indirectly in training. Its interesting to see how she changes her technique and style between hunting and trials. They know the difference!?....

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:08 am

I agree with you, Greg. My husband and I are complete opposites...he's constantly talking to the dogs...I say nothing, except for occasional retrieves. If they're trained correctly (along with the good breeding/lines), a person shouldn't have to say anything when hunting with them. Like Grant, the dogs "check in" and then go off again.

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:23 am

I try not to over command, but I like to talk to them on a hunt. Lots of "get yer' bird" and "atta girl's" Just pep talks I guess. Call me crazy.....

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:36 am

To me, talking on hunts is by far the best time to remain silent. I feel you are letting every bird in the county know where you are and that causes them to run off. Especially pheasants..If your dogs know their job they should not need encouragement of any kind.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:41 am

Not very good at putting my thought in writ form . I will though (since you asked) give it a whirl.

What gave me the idea for this subject was atually you. You aked a very important question (on the fetch thread) that most of us most of the time,me included take for granted that dogs some how have to be given a command to have them perform.
Take Janets suggestion, in her tape she says to hide from a pup when the pup does not want to come. Now I know that to work as I have done it,still do many times,but that's not all.

I'm getting ahead of myself and I need to go back and say,that technique may not have as great of an affect on a pup that hapens to be 6 mo.old for instansce as it will for a pup that is 2 month of age because the pup at 6 months has already started to develope his likes, dislikes, plus now he is bolder.and so on.

Okay back on track:>)

Not only dod we get the pup to do what we wanted in the first place and that is to come,but we also are teaching the pup what his job will be in the future if he is going to be part of the team. And that is to keep track of us at all times. Now a simple leason as it may appear. It also can be said that we are molding the pup,to where one day the whistle will not be needed.
Take the water retrieving part in her tape as another example.

By wading in the water ,Janet was able to show the pup that the water was nothing to fear,after all the pup was so well bonded to her that the pup over came her fear and joined her in the water.Why? because it was more importan through tyhe bonding it had to be with Janet than what her fear of the water was...

Those are few examples where if we got the dog started on the right track the dog would never get a chance to refuse you or not do the right thing,because he was doing the right thing from the get go and had not given a chance to form bad habits that later that turned to bad traits.

I guess what else promted me to start this thread is that we do not give our dogs credit for knowing what our job should be afield and that we only spend our time worrying what the dogs job is.....

So where would the need be for a whistle,or a whoa if we spend some time nurturing the good traits,gaurded agains the bad,and molded in to the pup the good to replace the bad.

I hope I didn't loose anyone,probable have

Glad you asked....
Greg

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:52 am

Exactly...we don't give our dogs the credit they deserve. I think we break their concentration every time we open our mouths at them. Let them do their work, sit back and enjoy watching them.

We still hide on the dogs, and they're adults now. Back when Hunter was younger (2-3 years), he would go off hunting furry animals when there weren't any birds around. We used to lay down in the field and wait for him to come around...wasn't long and he'd be looking down at us confused as to why we were laying down. However, there have been other times when Hunter's gone over the hilltops and not checked in for a bit. In the meantime, my husband needed to "relieve" himself and went off to. He came back to the area and Hunter still wasn't back, so he went to look for him and there he was, over the hilltop, on rock solid point, waiting for the flush. (I guess that's a perfect case of not needing to talk to them while they're working)

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:00 am

grant wrote:Are you saying that if I were to go on a hunt with you, I would never hear you command the dog to do anything?

My bunch tends to stay about within about 100 yrds when hunting and about 200 yrds in a field trail. I'm happy with that. Not in a field trail, but when hunting, I've thought Bell was on point from a distance, but as I got closer, she is looking around for me. When she see's me, she continues to hunt. I like that, but I've never directly taught it and she only does it a few times in a hunt. My guess is that it was developed indirectly in training. Its interesting to see how she changes her technique and style between hunting and trials. They know the difference!?....

Well no, not exactly,Grant. That would depend which dog i hapen to hunt that particular day. If I was hunting my pointer with 11 hall Of fame dogs in his pedigree,You will not only hear me calling him but you will also see me fire some shots in the hair to get him back. That's why I said the breeding plays a very important part.Now my young GSP will run like a deer for half an hour or so, But he would have checked back with me three or four times and would do it by casting an eye in my direction on a dead run and go out a half a mile once again. I know his manerrism and I let him get it out of his system .

From the time he settles down,I don't have to say a thing, like clock work he makes his casts just to assure himself he's hunting with me. I couldn't loose him if I tried.

So as you can see there is no need for me to say anything in that regard.. I'm only a human with infirior traits ,so i don't say hunt here or there.I just point him in the direction I want to go and I fallow him from there on.

Fieldtrialing is another story.
Best. Greg

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:29 am

I don’t hunt pheasant, and quail around here just hold up into a thick brush pile. They don’t want to leave there little brush pile either, so talking doesn’t hurt. Bell knows her job. I don’t have to over-handle her. I think that training a dog is simple, and is often over thought. I don’t buy into most of these over thought methods.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:37 am

Patty.

I know what you mean. I set many of times on a hill side watching my dogs pointing chukar and too tuckered out to make the long trek up the hill side... They could very well have been down in some draw pointing,or on the other side of a hill and out of sight.

I take it you are a grouse hunter?

The trouble with grouse is that there just isn't enough contects often enough for the dog,so they go off hunting for anything that piques their interest. Rabbits,one moment, treeing a squirrel the next.I take that as being part of grouse hunting and go on.....

Greg

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:45 am

Yeah, grouse and pheasants.

Hunter's the worse one at fur hunting(and we always know because he starts yelping)...and it's mostly deer (great point for using the e-collars). The rest of the dogs don't pay much mind to them.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:02 am

I suspect i'll have the same problems with my young GSP when i hit the grouse woods with him come next year. He don't give much attention to rabbits anf deer,though he likes to chase the deer a short ways.. He hasn't tasted the sock of a collar yet,but that'll probably change by grouse season.....
I wish I could keep a bunch of creeters in cages for dog breaking ,by I'm afraid we are living in wrong times for that...

Greg

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:47 am

Grant, you stated you don't hunt pheasants or lets say running birds so talking to your dogs is not an issue and if you would hunt with Greg you would not hear him say anything to his dogs...
My thoughts: I see my dogs as little hunting machines, programed through training to search, point, stand birds and retrieve. Once I enter the field I turn the switch on and my little machines and they are off. Because they have been programed to search, find birds, point, stand their birds for me to flush and retrieve, there is no further need for me to have to give them instructions or encouragement. They have also been programed to look for me or find me when they don't see me for a period of time.. I never need to talk to my little machines except if I am going to change direction or want them to come back to me for some reason. Then, with a simple Volt Come or Elke Come my little machines come in. Other then the come command or fitch command do I have a need to talk to my machines. I even go one step further. I will not pet or touch my machines in the field. Only after a retrieve will I pet them and say Good boy/girl. Once the hunt is over and we are back at the truck the switch on my little machines is turned off. At that point I don't care how much attention my machines are given. Their job is done and now is the time for their rewards..

Greg used the video title to head the topic I think, because this way of training is covered. Thanks Greg.

I love the hunt and I love to hunt with dogs that have been trained to hunt without always having to be handled in the field. They should know their job without constant direction and should need no added encouragement from us. Believe me when I say, " It is a heaven way to hunt "

Janet

Post by **grant** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:17 am

Bell does not *Have* to be handled. I talk to her and my hunting partners because it makes the hunt enjoyable. I agree that *having* to yell at a dog to keep it in the bird field, etc. would be annoying. As for the topic, I use whoa and whistles. Why? We'll last weekend, we were hunting the singles from the covey we just hunted. After a while, I thought I heard the birds calling to regroup. I couldn't hear good for the dogs running. I gave whoa. Both Kage and Bell stopped until I released them which was about 3-4 min. During that time, I was able to hear the birds better and move in that direction. I don't use whoa to get Bell to point. Also, rather than yell Bell COME from 200 yards. I just toot my whistle. Thats why I use those forms of communication.

With or without whoa, whistles, and encouragement, I'd drop my bitch in a field with any programmed machine. I'll digress to keep the post on topic, but a good dog is a good dog regardless if I choose to say good girl.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:22 am

Grant I agree with you man, many ways to get the job done, and it's all about enjoying you dogs... talking or no talking.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:22 pm

Seems a few feathers have been ruffled. If anyone here thinks stones are being thrown at them they are mistaken. My post in particular was to show and explain why one need not talk to their dogs while out hunting. Nobody said if you wanted to Whoa, Whistle, or talk to your dogs, you couldn't. I was speaking in generalities as most of us do. However, how one wants to train their dog is totally up to them. I do not knock the people who choose to train the way of the Whistle, Whoa, and talk method. I am merely offering a different approach to those who care to listen.

Through other sources, it has become apparent that Rick Smith's Silent Command approach clearly adopts and incorporates my Silent Hunting methods to start puppies in his seminars - seminars that he started after the release date of the video.

So it seems to me, the method of being Silent has merit. It just depends on who is spreading the message which dictates weither it is received.

Janet

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:37 pm

I train with commands and for me that often results in dogs that don't NEED commands. I think that commands are your way of telling the dog what is expected in certian situations. after the dog learns what is expected the command becomes a correction when the proper behavior is not offered. once the dog is broke to our standards, commands are rarely needed. I do not know much about the "silent command system" but the liitle i have heard, I don't agree with it but that is just me. to each their own!

Ice

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:12 pm

icefire wrote:I train with commands and for me that often results in dogs that don't NEED commands. I think that commands are your way of telling the dog what is expected in certian situations. after the dog learns what is expected the command becomes a correction when the proper behavior is not offered. once the dog is broke to our standards, commands are rarely needed. I do not know much about the "silent command system" but the liitle i have heard, I don't agree with it but that is just me. to each their own!

Ice

I think some of you are missing the point...

First of all let me say that there are only two commands the dog needs to know in the field "come and Fetch" that does not say you shouldn't teach the dog whoa,or heel or there wont be the problem dog that will need more than those two commands, nor am I saying all dogs can be trained with one method. What I am saying though is that Janets video was geared for the pups first six months, that if her method was fallowed, it can lead to the type of dog that will not need Whistles, whoas and gadgetry afield.

Personally I like to enjoy my dog in silence and with my inner thoughts, that's what I strive for and that's what I believe janet's Video's title implies......If not she can correct me....

Best, Greg.....

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:43 am

IMHO the idea of silent hunting is not so much a matter of keeping ones mouth shut, as it is a matter of limiting the amount of communication one has with the dog. What I am talking about are those folks who are constantly flapping their jaws saying things like “ Whoa, Whoa, Whoa”, “Easy Boy, Easy now”, “Get the bird”, “Lets Go”, Hunt’em up” and so on…we all know the type. Lets face it, too many people say far too much to their bird dogs. All that constant chatter gets confusing to the dog...that and it lets every wild bird in the country know your there plus it irritates the living heck out of those you hunt with! Now let me qualify this and add that in some cases, just as with dogs, a handler will have a routine that he/she follows. In which case the handler will give a softly spoken “Whoa” or “Easy” to the dog on point. IMO this is done solely for the benefit of the handler as a means to relax and prepare for the ensuing flush and shot as opposed to being a caution to the dog. So in the end, IMHO this silent hunting idea gets down to what you want your dog concentrating on.... birds and hunting or an unenforceable and confusing string of commands!

Oh yes, I understand there is tons of excitement and emotion involved when we go afield with our dogs and at times it can be hard to keep ones mouth shut. So, like I try and explain to my clients as a means of helping them learn to handle their dog...if you have ever rode a horse you know that you need to be relaxed in the saddle. If you get in the saddle and your wound up tighter than a fiddle string the horse will feel it and react accordingly; that’s how people get hurt.

Transfer this over to your dog...you go afield all excited and running
your mouth and next thing you know your dog is just as wired as you are and acts the part. The end result, dog makes mistakes you get mad and the dog gets confused...the hunts over and the e-collar comes into the picture, see what I’m saying!? It happens in my part of the world all the time

My best advice to all new handlers is this: Keep the communication between you and the dog to a minimum, shoot straight and have some fun!

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:19 am

great post doublea. that is great advice.
i hunt on a private club so a lot of people are there,with they're dogs, other people ,cars. so you need some commands used in the field, so you don't cross into another field someone is working or if a car is coming by you. so with all that in mind i use here, whoa, and to far. with that being said i'm not out there barking orders all day if i hunted in sd or kansas prairies, montana i'm sure i would say less.
grant i also praise my dogs, nothing wrong with that, we hunt all day together and i enjoy they're company so i tell them. sometimes it gets a little slow out there and they are working hard i'll say good dog, it's a postive thing.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:46 pm

Being "Silent" does not mean being stupid. Come on guys/gals, common sense tells you there are times you need to talk to your dogs. For example you are Silent when: You are out hunting, your dog is searching, finds birds, points and you walk into flush. Nothing needs to be said during his search, find, point, your flushing. The only command that one might say is fetch after the shot and even then most hunting dogs go for the retrieve on there own.
You are NOT Silent when: Your dog might be getting into trouble, such as, people, cars, entering other fields, as llewgor stated, change direction, or headed for a road. Then a simple Come will get your dog back.
As for whistles:
I see few field trialer's sitting on his horse blowing a whistle to bring his dog around. Most yodel or cry out to their dogs. Same thinking can be applied out hunting. You either have a bell or locate collar around the dogs neck. It is sometimes impossible with winds blowing, the bell clanking or the beep, beep of the collar for the dog to hear the toot, toot of the whistle. Voice travels much farther then the whistle. If that were not the case, more horse trialer's would be blowing rather the yodling.

It boils down to this:
A hunting dog does not need to be talked to nor should they need commands to perform their job in the field if they are properly trained before hand. As Doublea said. They don't need the atta boys, the hunt'em up, Whoa, Whoa, find the bird, easy now, to accomplish their task at hand. It's should be automatic, with little or no distractions from us.
Janet

Post by **grant** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:01 pm

birddog wrote: A hunting dog does not need to be talked to nor should they need commands to perform their job in the field if they are properly trained before hand. As Doublea said. They don't need the atta boys, the hunt'em up, Whoa, Whoa, find the bird, easy now, to accomplish their task at hand. It's should be automatic, with little or no distractions from us.
Janet

Where is anyone disagreeing with this? There is big a difference in "talked to.....to perform their job" and simply saying good girl when they make a fly by.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:03 pm

Does anyone have to agree or disagree grant in order to have a discussion.I don't think so. But at the same time I think it's possible to kick ideas and methods pro or con with out taking things that were said durring the discussion personally. But if you think that dog training is a simple matter,then I guess it's your board and we don't have to talk about deep subject matters.
So did you catch any pigeons?

Best,greg.

Post by **grant** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:32 pm

Sorry for interrupting. I'll leave y'all to your "deep subject matter" =)

Enjoy.

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:49 pm

Janet touched on a very important topic...one that shows a deep understanding of bird dogs. She talked about the ability of the dog to hear while in the field. Not many people understand that at range our dogs have the sound of the brush, bells, beeper collars as well as the wind buzzing in their ears. Not to mention they are 100% focused on the myriad of different smells they encounter always ready to stop and honor the proper scent and believe me this takes focus on the part of the dog. As Janet so correctly pointed out...if you are constantly talking to your dog, you are interrupting his concentration and taking that brainpower away from the task we have trained it to perform.

On the flip side as Grant mentioned…an atta boy as the dog comes in close does not hurt anything. He too is correct…in the case of the hunting dog. To do so with a field trial dog will encourage the dog to back cast; which is not a good thing in a field trial dog as we want them always charging to the front.

In the end I think what Janet is trying to say in a round about way is this: Regardless to the type of dog you have. Without empathy for the dog, one will never have a dog.

Post by **grant** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:04 pm

That sounds good Alan.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:09 pm

Greg wrote:Does anyone have to agree or disagree grant in order to have a discussion.I don't think so. But at the same time I think it's possible to kick ideas and methods pro or con with out taking things that were said durring the discussion personally. But if you think that dog training is a simple matter,then I guess it's your board and we don't have to talk about deep subject matters.
So did you catch any pigeons?

Best,greg.

Greg,

You have experience and insights that make your positive posts a wonderful contribution to the "mix".

So, I just hope that you can keep your delivery positive and non-personal so that you can stay on this board.

Sincerely,

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:11 pm

Alan.
can you elaborate for me how empathy fits in to the scheme of things.

Best,Greg

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:20 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
Greg wrote:Does anyone have to agree or disagree grant in order to have a discussion.I don't think so. But at the same time I think it's possible to kick ideas and methods pro or con with out taking things that were said durring the discussion personally. But if you think that dog training is a simple matter,then I guess it's your board and we don't have to talk about deep subject matters.
So did you catch any pigeons?

Best,greg.
Greg,

You have experience and insights that make your positive posts a wonderful contribution to the "mix".

So, I just hope that you can keep your delivery positive and non-personal so that you can stay on this board.

Sincerely,

Thanks Greg, your kind words are very much appreciated..

No personal stuff are needed when talking dogs,with other dog people.we are all in the same boat,and that is to learn. My hopes are to contribute where I can and to learn few things along the way.

Thanks,Greg.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:32 pm

Good deal, Greg.

I've read many, many of your posts and know that you're a good man with a big heart for dogs and a honest desire to make training them easier on them and easier on the trainer.

To me that says a lot.

Best regards,

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:47 pm

Man those are the kindest words anyone has ever said to me.

Thanks for understanding.

Best ,Greg..

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:52 pm

Greg,

Hey, everyone that knows me knows that I'm not shy about giving my unvarnished opinion.

Looking forward to reading more of your posts,

doublea · Post by **doublea** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:58 pm

Greg,...the one from Indiana

Empathy means seeing things from the dog's point of view. If one cannot do that then there will be a constant clash between man and dog. I think it goes without saying that if this is the case you're not training the dog you're breaking him...there is a difference!

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:05 pm

Hey Greg. your Varnished or unvarnished words

will always be remembered, as I would much preffer us to be for each other rather than against.

Thanks ,buddy.
Greg.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:39 pm

doublea wrote:Greg,...the one from Indiana

Empathy means seeing things from the dog's point of view. If one cannot do that then there will be a constant clash between man and dog. I think it goes without saying that if this is the case you're not training the dog you're breaking him...there is a difference!

A very good concept to adhere to, Al.

But I don't think you are saying with all dogs. I mean not that you would not want to,just that with some dogs you have to break their will before they'll take to what ever you are trying to teach them. agree?

Which brings us back to the topic at hand.. That dogs are very much creatures of habit.Anotherwords if they are not shaped and molded from the very beginning,there's a good chance they can pick up habits that will need to be rid of .

Now comes the hard part. who's ideals are we going to train this pup to.Mine,yours or the manfrom the down the street.
You see where I'm going with this Al.
That's why discussions like these are needed , not to say my way is, better than yours,but to see if we can find middle ground to where it will be better for all.

I'm an old man to most of you and I am getting tired.I'm going to bed and if someone wants to pick it up where it's being left off(by me at least) ,I'll be ready to join in come morning...
Good night,
Greg.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:39 am

Greg wrote:I suspect i'll have the same problems with my young GSP when i hit the grouse woods with him come next year. He don't give much attention to rabbits anf deer,though he likes to chase the deer a short ways.. He hasn't tasted the sock of a collar yet,but that'll probably change by grouse season.....
I wish I could keep a bunch of creeters in cages for dog breaking ,by I'm afraid we are living in wrong times for that...
Greg

Did I read this right?!?"He hasn't tasted the sock of a collar yet,but that'll probably change by grouse season"
Sorry to jack the thread! Just have to give Greg a little ribbing! Keeps him young at heart!

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:44 am

Yup,you read that right Bub..

Bzzzzzt!! Bzzzzt!!
Then again, if you were to send me one of them deer hides you got stashed, I'd put it to good use.I have the barrel........

Greg

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:34 am

I am getting confused.
A Greg-Greg here. A Greg-Greg there. Here a Greg. There a Greg. Every where a Greg, Greg. The Gun Dog Forum has a Greg. EI-EI- O.

Sorry, just had to do it.

Janet

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:06 am

MaryJane, I feel you are way off topic with your post. Grant usually steps in here but seeing he has allowed your post to remain I wiil respond to you this way. You became a member Feb. 19, 2005. You have made a total of 6 posts. All but 2, to sell something. Under: Buy Sell, Trade, your selling dog collars. Under: Dogs For Sale, your selling Dogs: Under Field Trials, your selling Dogs. I have not seen that the sale of these items will help to support this site, Further I have not seen any helpful training advice that you have offered to anyone. For you to step in and critize the ones that are, or are trying to help, and also trying to help support this site is way out of line. Before you throw stones you should not accuse others of what you are doing yourself.
Janet

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:31 am

Geeez, I can't stay on watch 24X7. Gotta sleep and take my beautiful wife out to eat breakfast.

Besides a personal jab at me (or one I thinks to me :roll: ) seems to make my mouse click faster.... Go figure.

But, yes Janet. Thanks for doing the foot work for me. MaryJane, nothing personal, but it was off topic.... As the super nanny would say, "you've been very very naughty."

"Atta Girl" Janet, pun intended.

Thanks.

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:39 am

It's easy to get carried away huh. You'd never guess how many of my own posts I've deleted over time..... Good thing is, I cant just remove myself from the forum....

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:43 am

Grant.
Please do me a favor if you don't mind and delete my last post as well, as i do not believe it applies now to this topic. thanks.

One more thing. can I change Greg to Gregory,it will be most helpful to janet

thanks, greg.

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:09 pm

Greg wrote: But if you think that dog training is a simple matter
Best,greg.

I guess this is talking about my signature? Maybe I should change it as I found a flaw in it today...

IMO, Training a dog to what it bred to do is simple. I believe that because I screwed up my training with Bell a lot! She is the first dog I've trained. I remember a few folks saying "grant, your doing this wrong..." early on. It didn't take long for me to realize if I just shut up, and focus more on creating a lifelike hunting environment with launchers and pen raised quail etc, that she'd sharpen the skills she already had, which is simple. Now that I'm satisfied with the way she hunts, I'm just interested in the things she didn't learn so well.... Like hunting etiquette? For example, remaining steady through another’s retrieve, which I don't "think" would come natural.

IMO, Training things that don't come natural requires more skill from the trainer.

I’ve also got another question. I’m not poking fun, but I’m just curious, if you only use treats and positive forms to train, what do you do when your failsafe fails to fail safely per say? For example, I’ve used Brenda’s FF on Bell to the best of my ability. When I say fetch she’ll fetch. But in a sticky situation (a fetch over the hill, through the woods, and into the briar patch.) if she decides she does not want to fetch, I can gently touch her ear and she decides she ought to fetch. If it was a dog that was trained with treats and it pulled that stunt, what would you do?

Because I can’t be serious all the time, I’ll add another comment. A nice nick from the e-collar doesn’t make a sound. It could be used as a silent training method.. Right? =)

Thanks for the info…

Grant

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:12 pm

Gregory wrote:Grant.
Please do me a favor if you don't mind and delete my last post as well, as i do not believe it applies now to this topic. thanks.

One more thing. can I change Greg to Gregory,it will be most helpful to janet
thanks, greg.

This is done =)

Just remember to login with Gregory now....

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:23 pm

That's right Grant.

Even planting launchers as sismple as it sounds is not as simple as it appears... That is if you stop to conceder that you want the most you can get out of that one planting.
Most guys I trained with would place the bird in the launcher and head off to plant it with out taking in to concederation ,which way the breeze is blowing, and from which direction the dog is going to be brought in to the field,let alone have a vision as to what they are hoping to accumplish and what they will do when things didn't go as planed.
Is there a proper way to plant a launcher with a bird in it,yes,is there an ideal spot in the field for that launcher,yes is there a wrong way for either,yes.

And what do we think the pup will do when you straight line in to the field,plant the bird,walk out from the same direction you will be bringing the dog in. The pup is going to track you to the bird,is what. what did you in turn teach the pup.nothing that had to do with birds,for sure.what you did teach him though is to be a man tracker by taking a straight line in to the bird field.....
So you see how complecated things get when you want the most you can have out of a launcher. The launcher is a small part in the dogs training. How about planting live birds. it gets more complex yet.....
So, yes i agree with you when you say it's simple to you and I ,but how about that guy with the first pup ever that wants to train same as you and I did with our very first one.Not simple to him,I bet, as it wasn't for us..

That's why people like janet have to be made known.....

Treats.

The truth is grant i have never ever trained a dog strictly on treats,and I hope I have not given anyone the impression that I have..... I did suggest to janet to use treats to over come a slight problem she was having with her pup at that time,that worked ... Can treats be used in certain areas for excellent results in the bird dogs training?you betcha you can. Will you get full proof result? probable not and no more than the full proof results we are getting now and no one should attempt the treat method thinking they can. the advantage for using treats is that you can overcome some problems with a young dog that you can not by the usual and traditional methods.. Janet for example had couple of weeks to get the dog over his dellema before the test and not enough time for FF.

And yes the e collar grant does diliver a silent message,but for me,if I wanted to dilever a message to my dogs,i want it heard

and which brings us right back to the original topic that if you got the pup started on the right track as Janet suggests, that verbal message I wanted my dog to hear could have been avoided same as you pushing the button..

And I aint talking e collars on this subject or any other subject,so grant don't force me to where I have to respond

please.

I hope I was able to help.
Best,Gregory..

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:32 pm

Thanks....

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:22 pm

Gregory wrote: That's why people like janet have to be made known.....

I think so too. I enjoyed janet's tape. I think earlier in the thread, there was lots of misunderstanding going on. I'm for a nice hunt. I like to stand back and enjoy the scenery and watch the dogs work. Its the coolest feeling to me. When I guide, I mention to the hunters that most of the enjoyment come from watching the dogs work. (Seems like some folks want to race the dogs to birds.) In a field trial I keep a faster pace, and may tell Bell to work a specific area if she missed it and I think there may be a bird there.... Anyway, I wouldn't enjoy a hunt where I had to haggle a dog all day. I guess I just took it personally when it was said that a dog doesn't need the atta girl. It may not work for all, and thats fine, but when I can see Bell slowing down, an atta girl or get your bird gets her excited and going like she just stepped on the field.

Thanks y'all.....

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:57 pm

[quote="grant"]

[ I guess I just took it personally when it was said that a dog doesn't need the atta girl. It may not work for all, and thats fine, but when I can see Bell slowing down, an atta girl or get your bird gets her excited and going like she just stepped on the field. ]

Now I understand what happened. You took my post personally and that was not my intent. I try not to throw stones..My passion for dogs and lack of tackfulness sometime's get me in trouble.

If you want to say, atta girl, or get your bird, for gosh sake you sure don't have to listen to me.

With any training method, we should take what we want and leave the rest.

As for that challenge you threw my way. How about just a nice friendly hunt? Say the word and I will be driving up your driveway.
Janet

Post by **grant** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:20 pm