Training rewards (treats)

[dan v]

You posted the web site as a reference . I read it . It says nothing about training with treats. So what is your point?
I also said competitive formats referring to trialing, not hunt tests.
I am simple pointing out that the folks that are breaking gundogs for the competetive formats are not training with treats.If you have facts of some that do I am ready to listen.
Maybe I should have used a disclaimer in my wording, but in the 20 years of my breaking dogs I have yet to see the method applied by the pro's. I would think that ( and the purpose of my orginal post) a person would ask themselves why don't they use treats????????
Then draw the conclusion themselves.. because they DO NOT work. It is not rocket science.
I think that to many make the assumption that a high strung bird dog can be trained with out ever having to make any kind of a physical correction with the dog. Only in a perfect world.Like it or not, the reality is there are times that you have to put some pressure on your friend/dog to get your point across if you can't do this, you will probably never reach much of a level of training.
You can't put fido on time out, to teach him a lesson no more then you can give him a treat to coerce him into any reasonable level of training .

What's my point? Are you being purposely obtuse?

I also said competitive formats referring to trialing, not hunt tests.

I figured you'd travel that road. Yeah, I understand that HT's in the true sense of the word are non-competitive. But does the MH dog have to do everything, from a stand point of steady to wing, steady shot, steady to kill, retrieving, and backing that any "competitive venue" does?...and quite often more is asked of the MH dog, maybe not in terms of forward pattern or athletic ability however.

Did I mention anywhere in my reply that Chad only worked with treats? No I didn't. I fact I suggested that he used a variety of methods.

[scott townsend]

What's my point? Are you being purposely obtuse?

I also said competitive formats referring to trialing, not hunt tests.

I figured you'd travel that road. Yeah, I understand that HT's in the true sense of the word are non-competitive. But does the MH dog have to do everything, from a stand point of steady to wing, steady shot, steady to kill, retrieving, and backing that any "competitive venue" does?...and quite often more is asked of the MH dog, maybe not in terms of forward pattern or athletic ability however.

Did I mention anywhere in my reply that Chad only worked with treats? No I didn't. I fact I suggested that he used a variety of methods.[/quote]

You continue to attempt to shore up your arguement with Chad and HT dogs. Niether of which meet the criteria of "pros training on the field trail circuit.He is a pro training hunt test dogs. I get that. Not what Im talking about. HT are exactly what you worded non-competitive.Again not what Im talking about.
Are you being obtuse. Stick with the topic.

[dan v]

You continue to attempt to shore up your arguement with Chad and HT dogs. Niether of which meet the criteria of "pros training on the field trail circuit.He is a pro training hunt test dogs. I get that. Not what Im talking about. HT are exactly what you worded non-competitive.Again not what Im talking about.
Are you being obtuse. Stick with the topic.

Alright then, putting Chad aside, and whatever methods he may use.

Please explain what, in your opinion, the difference in training a non-competitive venue dog (ie MH dog) as the competitive dog. (ie NSTRA). And a follow up. Why can't the method of training a competitive dog include some form of treat?

[scott townsend]

You continue to attempt to shore up your arguement with Chad and HT dogs. Niether of which meet the criteria of "pros training on the field trail circuit.He is a pro training hunt test dogs. I get that. Not what Im talking about. HT are exactly what you worded non-competitive.Again not what Im talking about.
Are you being obtuse. Stick with the topic.

Alright then, putting Chad aside, and whatever methods he may use.

Please explain what, in your opinion, the difference in training a non-competitive venue dog (ie MH dog) as the competitive dog. (ie NSTRA). Wyndancer, I will not be lead into that arguement. From reading your other posts you are well aware of the differences.


And a follow up. Why can't the method of training a competitive dog include some form of treat?

Becauce it does not get through to the animal, it does nothing to establish with them that you are the boss and they will obay and do what is taught to them.

[Maverick57]

Wwll Folks

Here is my 2cents.. Knowing each dog is different and each dog will respond to different thinks I use what will work for the dog I am working with. With the Coonhound it was food. With My Hunting dogs it was a jute toy he did what I asked he got his toy and a praise & and ear scratch.

Now with Weim Rescues it will be food they have some issues that will take time & patience, Mike B gave me a few good tips, for these kids so the work begins very early tomorrow.

Maverick57

[birddogger]

Not one person on this thread said you could or should "break" a gun dog using clicker training. The proponents all maintain that it is a good tool to use to bring along and introduce obedience to a young dog, and all the original poster wanted was to know what kinds of treats folks use.

Correct!! I for one said that I will use treats to get a puppy started in the right direction. I also said that I will give a treat from time to time to mature dogs, not as a reward or training technique, but just as a treat. Without going back and reading all the posts, I don't remember reading any post that promoted training or breaking a dog with treats, at least that is the way I was reading this thread.

Charlie

Then you need to go back and reread all the posts. Several of them speak of training with treats. Also this is the training forum. If it was not a training question why would it have been posted here ?????

Believe it or not, I am not trying to disagree with you. I am only saying that there is nothing wrong with using treats for certain things, such as getting a puppy to start coming when called or getting pup started at responding to a whistle, which can be accomplished literally within minutes and the treats can be stopped. I don't use treats for any formal training, but as I said before, I will use them from time to time just because it makes me and my dogs feel good. However, if a person chooses to never use treats for any reason, that is fine too.

Charlie

[AzDoggin]

Becauce it does not get through to the animal, it does nothing to establish with them that you are the boss and they will obay and do what is taught to them.

Scott, somebody forgot to tell Flipper that. On the other hand, he did blink several jellyfish, and munched on more than one anchovie

(oops - just gave away how old I am)

Marker training done well, with reinforcement schedules properly designed and implemented, creates spirited and thinking animals. Not many trainers are willing to learn all of the principles, though, so what most see is marker training partially implemented or worse. I suspect that's what you've seen alot of, Scott.

All that said, I'll still always use a correction phase to complement the marker training. IMO that gives the best of both worlds. Also, as has been beaten to DEATH in this thread, the marker training applies to obedience work and yard work. It is particularly suited for introducing OB commands to pups and young dogs, but is used extensively in competetive obedience and schutzhund. World champions in schutzhund and the ring sports use marker training extensively. What happens with the working dogs is that the reinforcer is transferred from food in a pup to a tug with adolescent and older dogs. Still the same principles of training apply.

Some of the most accomplished protection dogs on the planet were trained using primarily marker trainer. For example, a guy named Michael Ellis is a well-respected trainer of protection dogs, and is an expert in marker trainning. Check out the accomplisments of his dog Feist: http://www.loupsdusoleil.com/dogs_meet_Feist.html

Here are something like 49 free training videos by Michael Ellis. http://leerburg.com/stream/videolistcat.php?cat=Michael Ellis (enter "Michael Ellis" in the search box). You can see the timing and precision necessary to do this type of training right. It's neither complicated nor easy. He's got several videos on training with food rewards, then at least one on weaning the dog away from food rewards.

Many roads lead to Rome in dog training. That's why there is so much fodder for discussion!!

Take care.

[nitrex]

How many of the pro's out there do you suppose are training with treats????? I am not talking about pro's that are teaching show ring stuff or obedience. I mean pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competitive format of some sort.
Ask those people if they train with treats, you will get a funny look and then they will probably laugh at you.
If you are training with treats, you may think you are getting through to your dog but what you are really doing is pacifying your dog.
When your dog is charging in on a bird, yell whoa and throw him a hotdog, see how far that will get you. Cookie training will not get you very far when it come to bird dogs.Likewise cookie trainers never make it far in the bird dog training as well.There are lots of better methods for breaking dogs out there then treats. FWIW

George Hickox is using treats...his dogs love hot dogs and clickers!!! I'd say he has had some success!!

Nitrex

Once more and then i give up.I said pro's that are training or handling bird dogs for/on a trial circuit or a competitive format of some sort. Hickox does not.

Obviously you do not know George Hickox or anything about who he has trained. I, after speaking with George, am sure that there are several dogs running the major circuits (maybe not the circuit you run) that have been trained by him. He does use "treats" throughout the first year or so. Does he ONLY use treats? NO! He has multiple rewards and corrections. If you're ignorant of the facts wisdom should tell you not make foolish assumptions.

Nitrex

[JasonW77]

I'm amazed at all the different ways this went. I have been away for awhile so hadn't had a chance to respond back. Thank you for all the in sight to this question that I had. I do know that when I'm hunting with my dog she could care less about thing including food during this time. I was just trying to figure out which ways others do it or not. I have learn that most of you are totally against giving rewards during training at any age. Some are not.

On the other hand the biggest reason why i asked was to try to figure out a way to get my brittany to obey at times. Either with a e-collar on or with out. In the field if she is wearing it or not she obeys every command I ask of her. At home its a different story sometimes. Like simple things walking her to the car to kennel up to go some where. She always takes off to the neighbors yard to sniff the bush that their dog pees on. No matter how many times I call her she doesn't listen. I have spent a lot time training her (as much as I can with a 1year old and a wife ). On a side note this is the first hunting dog I have ever own and trained. Unfortunately I can't afford a dog trainer. So I was trying out treats as rewards to see if that would work.

Now I'm not really sure what to do. Any ideas on this would be great

[snips]

The object of the ecollar is not to just put it on when the dog messes up. Keep it on every time out until they form a routine of listening. If the dog is in neighbors yard with no ecollar, you need to go get the dog and let them know you were calling them, they HAVE to come. Treats encourage good behavior, but do not tell a dog they HAVE to come...You have to instill that....

[kylenicholas02]

Scott,
Opinions of trialers has became limited on this forum. I'll email you a site where your opinion and input would be appreciated better. Some people don't understand that strong trial breeding betters the overall breed.

[Chukar12]

...did someone mention breeding in this thread ?

I thought it was a convoluted argument that was confusing clicker training in shaping puppy behavior with the use of treats in the breaking of a finished gun dog?
I am strongly for the former and scoff at the latter...

...and Kyle, do not drag Scott to another site ... he seems happy here....and popping in attempting to implant political controversy on the merits of which website best suits which group; is only devisive, transparent and patently immature

[SubMariner]

Scott,
Opinions of trialers has became limited on this forum. I'll email you a site where your opinion and input would be appreciated better. Some people don't understand that strong trial breeding betters the overall breed.

Dude... poaching is nasty. Doing it in PUBLIC even more so.

Maybe YOU Need to go elsewhere?

[Tall Boy]

On the other hand the biggest reason why i asked was to try to figure out a way to get my brittany to obey at times. Either with a e-collar on or with out. In the field if she is wearing it or not she obeys every command I ask of her. At home its a different story sometimes. Like simple things walking her to the car to kennel up to go some where. She always takes off to the neighbors yard to sniff the bush that their dog pees on. No matter how many times I call her she doesn't listen. I have spent a lot time training her (as much as I can with a 1year old and a wife ). On a side note this is the first hunting dog I have ever own and trained. Unfortunately I can't afford a dog trainer. So I was trying out treats as rewards to see if that would work.

Now I'm not really sure what to do. Any ideas on this would be great

After the first time it happened, you should of made sure it didn't happen again. Put a c.c on her before you open the door, or MAKE her heel. Anytime a dog gets away with something it takes countless correct repetitions to erase the mistake.

[AzDoggin]

Put a c.c on her before you open the door, or MAKE her heel. Anytime a dog gets away with something it takes countless correct repetitions to erase the mistake.

Yep. Allowing it = teaching it.

If she comes fine in the field, you likely just need to do some more training in town or in whatever venue she's not getting it done. Definitely don't let the problem go on any longer, though, without fixing it.

[JasonW77]

I'll work on that thanks everyone