Retrieve induced with treats.....

[Gregory]

Anybody out there besides me has been doing any experimenting with treat induced retrieves. If so I wonder if your dogs reaction has been similar to mine.

Here's what I found. If I work him with one retreiving item for couple of days at a time he will do a back flip if I asked him to in order to get the treat but when I switch from retrieving item to another his behaviour changes. It changes so much in fact that he acts like he does not know what is aked of him when the command Fitch is given. Now I know he knows what fetch means because I been working him on retrieving since he was five months old.I also know he knew because he went in to search mode like a well force broke does when given the fetch command before this experiment. What he does now is to go in search for the original retrieving item and has no interest in the item he is commanded to retrieve. What does this mean exactly? honestly,I do not know yet. I do however suspect he associates the original object I started him with the treat, and can not make the conection that his treat is conected to him making the retrieve rather than, a particulr object. If I am correct, does that mean , if I were to try and induce a dog with treats to make a retrieve, do I also have to get him started with the intented object(BIRD) that I will be expecting him to retrieve in the future or fail? Or is it just that I have a dumb dog or is his trainer dumb.
Any ideas or insights.
Best,Greg.

[grant]

This doesn't answer the question, but I'd like to comment...

For the most part, I've never had good results with treats in training. Only because my pups come unglued when treats are involved. The presence of a treat just overwhelms them or something...? Now I use praise as the reward. They eat that up! =)

My one exception was this. Bell, I could be firm with. A good deep and firm Whoa! and reset had good results when teaching her whoa. With my lack of experience with multiple dogs, I used the same method with Kage. He requires a softer touch than Bell. Anyway, a few firm Whoa's and resets, and Kage began to hit the ground. When he was out from me a ways, I'd give “Whoa!”. He would lay down. Dang! I'd put too much pressure on him. So, the next few days, my goal was to show Kage that whoa is a fun and good thing. Nothing to be scared of. I did that with treats. It worked great. Now, when Kage whoas, that tails a waggin' =)

[birddog]

If I am correct, does that mean , if I were to try and induce a dog with treats to make a retrieve, do I also have to get him started with the intented object(BIRD) that I will be expecting him to retrieve in the future or fail? Or is it just that I have a dumb dog or is his trainer dumb.
Any ideas or insights.
Best,Greg.

Now that last sentence caused me a few chuckles.
Never thought about this but I do have to say I very seldom have a problem making the transition from dummy to bird. I have always started my pups on retrieving at 8 weeks of age. I have found the earlier I start retrieving lessons the quicker they catch on. It has been my experience if one waits to start retrieving lessions at an older age, "sometimes", I state "sometimes", the transition from dummy to birds seems to require more time and training.
I have not used treats, but at one point after reading a post of your's on another board on treat reward, I used it on a young pup that decided he didn't want to return the dummy to me, with great success. I was pleased to have found your TIP on this..
From experience, using your treat method, as you suggested, I was successful, with less demand, making it a more pleasant experience for my dog then going through the force break to retrieve method. It worked for me!
Janet

[Gregory]

Hey Grant. I'd buy video or tape of a proper way to praise a dog if you make it. Just think how much I can cut down on the feed bill,eh? If you think they'll eat it up:>)


Janet. Glad to hear I was able to help you with one of my tips.

The little experimenting I'm doing with Pete showed me there is a bunch of positive posibilities with treat induced behaviour. As I said he will almost do a back flip to make the retrieve.What I can't figure out just yet is, if he associates the treat with the object and not so much for the task of retrieving. I think I'll wait until tomorrow and try another object to see what his behaviour is like . Then, Maybe I'll stumble in to what ever it is that promted me to do the experiment in the first place. Explanning it will be something else again:>)
Thanks for the response.
Best,Greg.

[grant]

Hey Grant. I'd buy video or tape of a proper way to praise a dog if you make it. Just think how much I can cut down on the feed bill,eh? If you think they'll eat it up:>)

Maybe I could make a 30 sec. video on how to say "atta' boy" or "atta' girl" and add a pat on the head. Think I'd get rich? =)

I'll take some of my comments back. I've used treats for come. It worked fine. When I used treats in fetch, the dogs would always drop the dummy/bird on the way back. It looked like they where anticipating the treat.... Thats when I stopped using treats for fetch.

Grant

[Gregory]

Will it make you rich? well,let me put it to you this way, don't quit your day job:>)
On a more serious note.

I find merit using treats, for retrieving just how far and how complicated it will get to get the dog to perform through his stomach I don't quite know yet, a lot will depend on how well I will be able to read the dog in figuring out why they do what they do. Or if I might solve my problem or a problem some one else might have if I got the dog started on treats and freshly killed birds from the get go. One thing I know (and I don't know how many will agree with me on this) is that dogs do what they do for selfish reasons. Believing that as I do, makes it easier to exploit their selfishness to a digree in certain areas (retrieving) in the dogs training. To where I may not use the same technique (treats) in getting the dog to work closer to the gun for instance if that was my desire.
Anyway, Grant,all,I think it's a worth while finding out what will work and what will not work and what the long lasting affects are going through the dogs digestive system:>) Hey, the circus mutts were alway able to impress me..

Best, Greg

[grant]

Will it make you rich? well,let me put it to you this way, don't quit your day job:>)
On a more serious note.

I find merit using treats, for retrieving just how far and how complicated it will get to get the dog to perform through his stomach I don't quite know yet, a lot will depend on how well I will be able to read the dog in figuring out why they do what they do. Or if I might solve my problem or a problem some one else might have if I got the dog started on treats and freshly killed birds from the get go. One thing I know (and I don't know how many will agree with me on this) is that dogs do what they do for selfish reasons. Believing that as I do, makes it easier to exploit their selfishness to a digree in certain areas (retrieving) in the dogs training. To where I may not use the same technique (treats) in getting the dog to work closer to the gun for instance if that was my desire.
Anyway, Grant,all,I think it's a worth while finding out what will work and what will not work and what the long lasting affects are going through the dogs digestive system:>) Hey, the circus mutts were alway able to impress me..

Best, Greg

Sounds good. Good luck in you endeavor.

Hey, the circus mutts were alway able to impress me..

What does that mean?

Grant

[Gregory]

The comment a bout the circus mutts ?
well that means that I always ejoyed seeing them perform all those tricks.Later I found out they were taught those tricks using treats. Some of those tricks were quite impressive.can you emagine how dificult it must have been for a toy poodle to climb a ladder or how frightful it must be to a dog having to jump through a ring on fire .
That's why I think dogs are selfish,and their selfishness is greater than their fears. Emagine if we can find a way to exploit their selfishness where dog training could go.....

For those reasons, I'm impressed with the circus dog or Orka sp? that was taught to perform all those tricks for a little peice of herring.


Best,Greg.

[grant]

Greg,

Get your dog to do back-flips like I saw a poodle do on TV! It was too cool! I'll be a believer! ahahah

[Gregory]

Too funny,go ahead and laugh when I'm trying to be serious
Pete would never stand for back flips,he's too high strung
Good chating with you Grant.
Best ,Greg.

[Greg Jennings]

I've had excellent results *in certain areas* training with treats. In others, the treat is too distracting.

In all treat-based training, I also eventually start subtituting praise for treats. Once in a while at first, then eventually only treat once in a great while. Gotta keep 'em guessing.

Best,

[birddog]

Time for one of Janets stories..
I owned a very talented Vizsla pup who at 6 months of age would squirt me and anyone who I brought close to his kennel. I was a working girl at the time and would spend hours thinking, trying to figure out why is he doing this.( My work performance did not suffer) I came to the conclusion HE was thinking this: Oh my gosh, here she comes. He was so taken by the thought I was going to touch him and pay attention to him that he would get so exicited he would lose controll of himself. As my thinking went on I was trying to figure how and what I could do to get his mind off me. What I came up with was this. I filled my pockets with milk bone and would walk off to the side as I approched his kennel reaching over handing him a milk bone. I figured by taking his mind off me by focusing his mind on the milk bone, he would over come his excitment of seeing me. It took about 2 weeks and before you knew it, he started to look at my hand, looking for the treat. With in another week or so he no longer got aroused at seeing me and little by little I weaned him from the milk bone. True story!
Janet

[kninebirddog]

I have had 2 occasions were i resorted to treats for retrieves..with luck....I found Peanut butter worked for my first dog i has some issues with and then Some soft jerky treats worked with a FF gone wrong on another...Started with treast then slowly weaned the treats out with a good dog petting reward in place....sometimes you have to try different things in different situations...I do Not like treats on a general rule...but hey if it works and gets the desired results then why not...if obnoxious clicking can get a dog to do stuff ....

Pavlov's ring the bell and salavate....this was a conditioned response long after the food was taking out of the picture for the reward of the bell ring.....

[Gregory]

So tell me, why don't you like treats as a general rule.

Best,Greg

[kninebirddog]

IF you have a dog that responds well without treats

why start......

I only use treats in certain instances and generally that will be on soft timid dogs and i will quit using treats as the confidence level rises

dogs that have alot of drive most won't eat they are to intense about what they get to do

[Gregory]

I agree why treat when you don't have too. But then again why praise a dog for a job well done when you don't have too.
Couldn't you use treats for the same reason as praise and expect greater results.I mean you praise to get a message across to a dog,right.

Best, Greg.

[kninebirddog]

i don't find quite a few of my dog responding to treats Bullet for instance his reward is more birds...so why carry around a bag of treats when he won't eat them....Treats are fine for working with dogs that are soft to bring them to a level where you can work with them in a real manner....as i stated treat came in handy for soft dogs that had been messed up or are timid in nature...other then that treats are unneccesary when a dog starts to learn to reap it's own rewards

[Gregory]

I agree I wouldn't want to carry a baggie full of treats in the field for just any old part of the dogs training. I would if I thought I could get a dog from Knocking birds,or creeping or chasing or trade a treat to munch on rather than the bird they hapen to be retrieving

Anyway. We'll take our time to see how far a treat will go with Pete's retrieving, and who knows maybe the experiment will lead us somewhere in a different direction.can't stop learning,you know..


Who would have thought Janet a milk bone had so much power over that spraying dog,Amazing ..

Best,Greg.

[birddog]

That's right Greg, had I not thought about using a treat to take his mind off of me I probably would have lost control and needed a therapest. That happened so many years ago I had forgotten about it. When my pup started to not want to retrieve to me out of water and I saw your post on the treat method I put it in play with fantastic results.
I do agree with kninebirddog and do not use treats for every day training. Though great with problems such as I had, I feel it could just be another hurdle to over come if used all the time.
It will be interesting to see if what you are experimenting with works and anything that makes training easier for both handler and dog is worth learning. Nice thing about this forum. Some times someone comes up with great ideas that most of us can use. Something so easy that helps makes all this dog stuff more fun.
Janet.

[Gregory]

You made me laugh with the therapest comment.I had a clue about horses and women,but not a clue a bout dogs that way.. . See I learned something.

On a serious note.
I experimented with Pete today to see If I could get him to retrieve two different objects at the same setting. he did much better today then yesterday,but still he looks around for the object I started him with .Not quite sure yet why.But I think he thinks the treat has to do with the object being retrieved,rather than the act itself .Later today I'm going to experiment with a frozen pigeon along with two frozen Bob whites. Then tomorrow I'll put a pigeon a sleep and try the same experiment with a fresh killed bird. If it goes well then the next step will be to get the pigeon oozing some blood like the real deal....Then make him retrieve two or three from a distance of hundred yards or so . I think if the experiment works as well as I think it will,then we can start recommending to folks with pups or dogs like Pete, that retrieve everything but wont retrieve to hand a fresh killed bird to give treats a whirl, rather than going straight to force Breaking.

Stay tuned.
Greg

[snips]

Here`s my belief on the food induced retrieve, for what it`s worth. You might get it done, with all kinds of food conditioning and general coaxing. But I DO NOT believe it would hold up down the road. Most dogs that don`t like the feel of feathers in their mouth, some sort of force has to be taken for them to find out it can be fun. I used lots of food conditioning in obedience training for teaching and for keeping up a dogs attitude, but even obedience people found out it may or may not hold up down the road. Dogs ARE smart enough to know when it is around and when it`s not. ALL obedience people FF, even the smallest of foofoo dogs, because the retrieve has to be reliable in any place no matter what is happening around the dog. If you plan on runnnig any trials or doing any testing FF is the only way to go, IMO. You may get by without any pain teaching a really good hold using a dumbell then transferring it to a frozen bird then a fresh. That would get the dog accustomed to holding the feathers, then the excitement of shooting a bird down he would get over the problem of not liking the feathers in his mouth. The teaching of Hold can get many dogs thru alot of what they have to do to retrieve.

[Gregory]

Thanks for your comments Brenda.
But I must, say there is nothing etched in stone when it comes to dog training. I'm going through all this for experimental reasons to see what works and what will not an how far it can be taken. I already know what Force breaking to retreave will do to a none bird retreiving dog..

What I didn't know prior to this experiment , I do know now though, is that a dogs behaviour (another words responds ) depends on the type of treat, the training area,the dog itself,and the object the dog is being asked to retrieve. And we have not yet began the introductin of fresh killed birds under a training situation let alone an actual hunt setting. The good news is that by the time I set the dog up to succeed or fail I will have a pretty good idea as to what will and will not work (with this particular dog) by the time the next hunting season comes around......


I have already experimented with one other theory with less than favorable results. That one can use a dogs natural instincs and drive to retrieve to his favor, to end up having a fail proof dog with a success rate of the dog that was Force Broke to retrieve.

My theory worked up to a point .But when I placed the dog in a real hunting situation the dogs prey drive superseeded his retrieving insticts. Or in plain words, he preffered to get bussy hunting again over having sticky and loose feathers in his mouth.
I gained lots of knowledge by conducting that experiment, as I think I will from this one if I stay focust and impartial.

Best, Greg

[snips]

Well, here`s another theory. Maybe he just likes the origional object better. You see Greg, once again I believe it is possible to have simple solutions to something you think is complicated. Every dog I have owned hasa favorite toy or thing they prefer to retrieve. Believe me, if there were reliability in food induced retrievers obedience people would be doing it with bells on. I saw a TV show on the Orkas they use food training on. They showed complete shows where people were in the stands waiting for the performance that had to be canceled due to "Whales decided not to cooperate today." Thats the only way to train them, because you cannot force a Whale, so food training is it. Thats my point. It may work today and tomorrow, but the day you really need it to work, it fails. Then what is there to fall back on? Geta bigger piece of Weinee? Good luck, let us know how you fair.

[Gregory]

I'm already finding out some of the things you are saying ,Brenda.
What I'm not hearing though is the "Why's" and that is what I am going after.

I want to know why dogs do what they do and the only way to find that out is to experiment as to what the spychological attachement to particular toy might be and what are they thinking when a dog will retrieve three bumpers one at a time on command from a distance of fifty yards,or set a dog on a search mode when you say "fetch", like a well a force broke dog goes on a search mode but will not retrieve a downed bird to hand when hunter and dog are both in the vicinity of the downed bird. While at very next covey rise that same dog that did not retrieve the downed bird that fell in plain sight to both handler and dog, will come from over the hill with a bird in his mouth with the bird you thought you missed and drop it at your feet.
Now,the experiment I'm working on may not reveal what goes through a dogs mind as well as I hope it will,and I may be on the wrong track copmletely, by trying to find the answers to that one with this experiment . Nonetheless, as I see it, I will have more to say on the subject on using treats, than to say "it just does not work". With out also saying why it don't..

I've already found that a lot more comes in to play,Then the mere giving a dog a treat and said as much in my previous post....

Save me some time by telling me why the Orka's didn't perform that day. Other than just saying they didn't .

Best, Greg.

[kninebirddog]

Treats and rewards are more for the people then the dogs.

Your great dogs that perform with consistancy making champions and HOF category are trained with effective training...

training has come along ways with the improvements of the collars making training alot easier with desired results leading to GREAT trial performances ..BAsic methods that have been around for many years are no being achieved with more consistant results today then back then

These dogs are trained with the dogs compliance to a leader not one that begs for the desired actions...This is probably the biggest difference from those who haev success in trials and those who are happy with the backyard companion which there is nothing wrong with this....But to be successful in trials you must have consistancy...there just isn't 2 ways about that.

[Gregory]

I found in fourty years of dog training to be true much to what you said. Having said that, I must also say that I already know how to train a dog from a puppy to a finished dog, I also know how to Force break one to retrieve, and know how to mold a pup from the beggining where I don't have to utter the word whoa to get them to point , stay on point, or stop their creeping ways. But, knowing how to do all that does not stop me from wanting to learn more..I hope you don't mind if I continue with my experiment as I am finding out there is alot more to getting a dog to perform by treating than the mere poping a treat in his mouth.

One other thing you must be made to realize. Not all that are involved with dogs and their training dance to a field trialer tune. Some of us are able to see a major differnece between a field trial dog, from the foot hunters dog . That of course does not mean to a man that knows dogs, that a foot hunter can not have or expect the same ideal out of his dog as the trialer expects from his. Matter a fact a foot hunter that owns a broke dog owns a dog that is asked to perform a greater task (other than range) than what the AA trialer asks out of his, or the guy that dabbles in shoot to retrieve type of games. I'll explain it to you if you don't know the difference. I'm only bringging this to your attention cause I detected little arrogance in your post.When in fact the subject at hand is not about fieldtrialing, ecollars or even the standard dog training methods .

The subject is about the" pro's and Con's" on using treats to alter the dogs behaviour.

Best, Greg...

[birddog]

Something I would like to add to this topic. A shock, a check cord, a prong collar, a wonder lead, etc. are all used to get the attention of the dog or animial being trained. Why would not a treat also be considered an attention getter? Seems to me all these training aids can accomplish the end result we are looking for. We eventually, when the animial gets the message, start weaning them from collars, and cords. Same goes for a treat. Not all dogs are tough enough to tollerate a shock, tug, or jerk from a prong collar or cord, but I have yet to see a dog that can't tollerate a treat. No one, at least I don't think anyone is saying to throw your cords and collars in the trash. They are just suggesting that maybe in some cases you could get the same end results through a dogs stomach rather then through the dogs neck.
Janet

[snips]

This is true. All dogs are different. To get possitive results using food tho, you need a real food oriented dog. (PIG) Some dogs aren`t into eating while out doing field stuff. Some will love food anywhere. This goes back to the "give the dog the head" theory, which is old school. I just worry that a dog doing this will one day decide he wants the rest!

[snips]

This is true. All dogs are different. To get possitive results using food tho, you need a real food oriented dog. (PIG) Some dogs aren`t into eating while out doing field stuff. Some will love food anywhere. This goes back to the "give the dog the head" theory, which is old school. I just worry that a dog doing this will one day decide he wants the rest!

[birddog]

Snips, There are dogs that eat the whole bird who have never been trained using treats. If one method dosen't work, don't most try something else? In no way am I suggesting everyone should start to train with treats, but what kind of success do you think I would of had strapping one of those shocking collars on my dog when he was standing on his back legs squirting all over me when I approached? Had it not been for the treat I was handing him as I approached to focus his mind on food rather then me, who knows if I could have over come this annoying habit that was starting to escalate. Old School, as you put it, was around for years and many a Champions were made using the Old School method.
Janet

[snips]

I`m sure there were, but I can`t see the day I will pull the head off and feed it to the dog. Just me I guess.

[birddog]

You seem to imply that the treat is the head of a bird. Once trained to retrieve, the head was offered to the dog AFTER a retrieve as a reward. Also the thought was it makes a dog want to go out and find more. That is not the intent here. A treat, NOT A HEAD OF A BIRD, is being used as an attention getter to get him to bring you the dummy or bird instead of playing or running off. At least that is the way I am seeing it. I, myself have never used the "give them the head method", My thoughts were with you. What would prevent them form eating the whole bird. I might have Greg's intent wrong and if I do, maybe he can explain it a lot better then I am trying to do. As I mentioned before, after reading a post of Greg's, I tried it on a dog who just didn't want to bring me the dummy and it worked.
Janet

[Gregory]

No Janet, you have it right.You're also doing a much better job than I could explaining what should have been obvious to most what the intent of this topic was about. Smoke screens and mirrors are what few none believers are trying to throw by twisting the subject in a direction that was not intended to go.case in point "head feeding" as though that is the only means available to treat a dog.


I know and you know that there are times that a treat will suffice to where FF may not be practical (the dogs age comes to mind) and there are othertimes where a treat my not be the practical means in getting what needs be to a dog. Case in point-- stopping a dog from creeping or roading,or even yet taking birds out ,for obvious reasons to most.

The other thing is missed here,least wise it's been omited. That all
we can hope for when training of the dog begins is, to replace a bad or an undesirable trait with one we deem desirable or a trait that is exceptable to most.

Now, I hapen to believe that there is a place for treats that could be made to good use and with faster results. It also must be said while I am at it is, one treat vrs another may have a greater affect on the dog and just like anything else when you are dealing with K-9 behaviour one needs to experiment with which treat the dog may prefer.
And just as Janet said,once the unwanted behaviour is replaced with what ever you are trying to change it with,the treat must be weaned.

Why would I want to get my dog hooked on heads, I wouldn,t anymore than I would keep my dog on dryed liver bits....


Good post Janet.....
Greg

[snip]

Thats a case of dog wanting the treat more than the object he`s carrying. Many dogs would prefer to keep their bird as to giving it up to a treat. Their treat is the bird. Guess thats the theory behind giving the head. But if they had a dummy, I can see the treat being enticing.. That seems more like a "come" issue than working the dog thru not picking up a ird because of his distaste of feathers. To me, there are 3 catagories of trouble shooting why a dog does not retrieve. 1- Dog does not know "come". 2-Dog is greedy and wants to keep bird, and not hand it over to master. 3-Dog dislikes picking up the bird because of feathers in his mouth, another reason why dog spits a bird out early.

[Gregory]

You forgot to mention couple other reasons. Like, The jealousy factor, the possessiveness factor, and the desire to locate more birds over retrieving.
All those factors and including the ones you mentioned can be overcome by going through the dogs stomach. As I am finding out little by little... and No, the theory is not what you say is for giving the head. The theory for giving the head to the dog is two fold. One is to get the dog accustomed to having the dog liking head which is a treat to most dogs, so he can go out and find another bird to be treated again, and the second is to for the dog to complete the circle . Dog goes and finds the bird,the gunner shoots the bird,the dog fetches the bird ,the dog retrieves the downed bird and gets treated.. Rabbit hunters do exactly that, for the above mentioned reasons,except they don't expect their dogs to retrieve.


I set and watched a little Setter couple of years ago make retrieves for her Owner at our annual muzzleloaders dove shoot. And when her master had his limit of 15 doves she busted her little but retrieving every dove shot for a number of people and she retrieved them to hand,why? cause she knew once the bird was brought she'd get the head.
The guys that didn't know that her owner was rewarding her with the head after each retrieve didn;t reward her. She in turn helped herself to the head after the dove was place in the pile . And I mean the head only. Pure and simple a learned behaviour.
Best, Greg

[snip]

Possessiveness falls under greedy, they want to keep it for themselves. I believe many of the dogs that leave it to go on hunting are, many times, the dogs that do not like to pick a bird up. So thats why they go on hunting.

[Gregory]

Possessiveness falls under greedy, they want to keep it for themselves. I believe many of the dogs that leave it to go on hunting are, many times, the dogs that do not like to pick a bird up. So thats why they go on hunting.

Maybe it does according how you want to look at it. I like to think possesive applys to dogs rather than greed as I dodn't think dogs can reason their actions out. Maybe protective,hoarding. like a junk dog hoards his bone by placing it under ground....


Not wanting to pick the bird up is the obvious,what is not so obvious is the reason for not wanting to, and when I see a dog in the field that rather hunt for another bird to point,flush,or give chase to, makes me think the dogs desire for any of those traits are stronger then the trait is to retrieve.. On the other hand If I see a dog that goes in to a search mode,finds the bird,attempts to pick it ,spits it out and stands there looking at you as though he is saying,"what now boss",or better yet "help me out" Then I can say knowing clearly the dogs does not want to pick the bird up or has not found away "how" he can pick it up with out getting the feathers on a hot day stuck to the roof of his mouth.Having said that,I also know by his mannerism and the look\looks he is giving me,he looking for someway to over come the delemma he is faced with....Yea, you can use force no doubt,or you can go through his digestive system and show him it is to his benefit if he over came his displeasure of the loose feathers ,and to learn to like it,which I believe he will with the right treat..

Go read the bottom section of my above post about the head loving Setter . I was writting still when you where posting and might not have read that part of my post.
Greg

[snip]

Well, believe it or not, I still have to work thru many of these issues during the FF, after all, thats why we are FFing. Whatever reason they are not retrieving will surface and have to be worked thru somewhere in the process. And I have found that some dogs hate it so much I have to find alternative ways of tricking them into doing it for me, all this comes down to finding a weak spot in what they like to do and playing on it. Then it can be fixed forever.

[Gregory]

Yep,I agree. They all come to surfece one time or another.It's how we choose to deal with them that matters at the end.
Greg