Smith, Hickox, or Perfection DVDs

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:39 pm

I am looking at purchasing one or the other. From everything I have read it seems to me that both would work in me training my GSP. If I am mistaken here please enlighten me. My GSP is currently in SD chasing birds but as soon as she gets back I want to ensure that I can do the training myself. I also looked at the Hickox training videos as well. So i guess he is in the mix as well.

I understand that all of these have something to offer but I am looking for the easiest to follow with very good visual of what is going on. The perfection one seems to be positive as it uses untrained dogs. I am not sure about the others.

Sorry about the newbie question....but we all have to start somewhere right. Thanks in advance

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:39 pm

I've only seen bits and pieces of the Hickox video's and have not seen anything on the Smith video. I do however own both Perfection series. The Perfection series are a great series for step by step training from the basics to a finished dog. There is a wealth of info presented in the over 4 hours of video in the 2 series set. It is nicely broken down in it's own segments, so that you can review any segment at any time without alot of searching. Also, one of the nicest things IMO of this series, is you get to see what happens when things don't go as planned. They even have it set up to display e-collar stimulation on the screen so you know exactly when the dog is receiving stimulation, and the level that is being used(neat..) Dogs in all phases of training are shown, and as these dogs pass one phase you see them graduate to the next. All done in a natural and low stress environment. Perfect for the novice trainer all the way up to the veteran who may be interested in some new techniques to implement in his training.

You won't be sorry if you purchase the Perfection series.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:08 pm

Thanks Tom. I do like the fact that there seems to be a lot of info for the money. Thanks again.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:50 pm

Thanks VZ

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:03 pm

I started humteen years ago with Delmars first bood. I have had good success using my own variation of the Smiths methods. It seems to be particularly well suited to my Llewellins. I don't use the whoa post but do use the belly collar.

I baught the Hikox tapes and to e honest it confused me, I had to put so much concentration into keeping straight with the "command, stimulate, response. stimulate,command, rosponse etc...etc...that Ilost sight of what I was doing and me and the dog got confused. I gav it up and went to the checkcord. I am not saying it's not a good method, it just didn't work well for me. I will lend you my copies of vol 1 and volume 2 if you want to try them before you buy.

I am pretty much a fan of the smiths method, or I should say, my own varation of the smith method.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:08 pm

Highcotton I am not sure I should borrow anything that could confuse me. LOL

I would not mind borrowing them as I can stand to learn as much as possible. Thanks I will shoot you a PM

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:05 pm

I started with the Delmar book and I do use the whoa post. But it's also my own version for which I'd take no credit. One thing about the Delmar book, it works as well today as when I first got it. I didn't like Delmars tape. I've also seen Perfect Start and didn't care for it but you can train your dog with it.

Best thing to do is watch them all one time and buy the one you remember most from from one viewing. Then stick to it until you develope yourself or find that you can't with what you have. The better you remember from one viewing, the better the DVD got the point across.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:50 pm

Don thanks for the advice on watching them all. Do libraries usually carry this sort of video or is there a rental place that may carry it. I will check those out.

Also if anyone has a copy of the Delmar Smith videos or the Perfection videos and are willing to let me borrow them I will return them with a refund of your postage. Thanks Highcotton for your contribution to the cause. LOL

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:07 pm

I actually found the Hickox videos very easy to understand. The stimulate, command, response sequence is important to the Hickox method. Eventually one would move to the command stimulate, response and then to command - respones. Don't throw out these videos so quickly! I have used the videos and then went to the Hickox School 4-5 years ago. I can't say enough good about the method or the school. I'm actually going back next Spring for a refresher and to get an update to see how Hickox has changed and improved his method. Good Luck!

Nitrex

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:33 pm

Nitrex I will not be discounting anything real soon. I will review them all and see which method is best for me. I have never heard of the Hickox school. That is interesting. I would love to go to some place that helps the handler/trainer with their own training. That is the best way to learn in my opinion. Doing rather than seeing/reading. So hopefully out of the videos I can see, then do rather quickly.

Thanks Nitrex

Windyhills · Post by **Windyhills** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:50 pm

I guess I would back up a bit here. Something you said caught my ear...your dog is in SD working wild birds?

With who?

And what is that person doing in the way of training your dog? Will they be talking to you about their program and what you should carry on with when you pick your dog back up?

I would not be in a big hurry to learn some new program which may well not jibe with your dogs recent experience. Talk with the fellow who has your dog now, and try to carry on with what he has been doing with your pup, or at least go with something that is complementary.

If nothing formal is being done with your dog, I might suggest a few others to check out. Dave Walker has a series of videos out that look intriguing to me--have not seen a complete on, but I like his new book, and his video snippets on his web site look great.

I have some friends that highly recommend the Smith Brothers--not Delmar but his sons--Silent method tapes.

And there is a pretty nice little tape available on the Mason Creek link on the front page of this web site, Janet Nahorn's "Silent Hunting, No whistles, no whoa's" video.

To each his own, but I am not a fan of methods that use the e-collar to teach, which I believe Hickox's method does. Not saying it can't work, just that I am a bit more leery about going there, when I know other ways that teach in other manners then layer over the collar later work fine.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:16 pm

Great point. She is out with Keith Hickam out of Waco Texas. I planned on getting with Keith once they get back and talking with him as to what should be done now. This is what I have from him so far. She is pointing a lot of birds and naturally backing sometimes. He is really not working with her that I know of on commands. I think this trip was more about exposure to a lot of wild birds. He has mentioned to me that she has a good training attitude but still puppish at times. I am glad you mentioned that as I was all ready to watch all the videos and get set up to start her when she gets back.

Here is another question for ya. Since she has been gone for 3 months and I only had her for about a month before I sent her to camp. Do I need to hold off some time before training with her again. Just to get her re adjusted to home life here. Thanks

okiebirdhunter · Post by **okiebirdhunter** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:31 pm

For a beginner I would probably recommend the Silent Command System by Delmar Smith's son Rick and Rick's cousin Ronnie. It's fairly simple. I can't say that it is necessarily worth the money though.

I liked the Bird Introduction part of George Hickox's video, however I pretty much disliked the rest of the DVD.

Delmar's new DVD(which is the same as the old VHS, but has an updated wonder lead and whoa post segment) is still good but the new segment on the whoa post is a bit difficult to follow and doesn't seem to make sense.

Another couple of videos are Sherry Ebert and Scott Miller's two videos. His newer video is worth the money at $14.99 if you just like watching bird dogs, but his methods leave you wondering how he was ever named NBHA Handler of the Year because the dogs look confused. Sherry's video has good points and bad points. It seems alittle hap hazard but all in all worth the price.

Thats just my honest opinion of what I have.

If you want my opinion on Ferrell Miller and Dave Walker's videos let me know.

John Bellah
OKC, OK

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:40 pm

I just ordered Miller's video because I read that he was handler of the year and thought well 15 bucks aint bad. I will look into Ebert and the other miller and walker as well. Like I mentioned above I am interested in learning all I can. Feel free to share on walker and miller.

BluffCountryOutdoors · Post by **BluffCountryOutdoors** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:13 pm

Not to sound repetative, but I ordered Rick and Ronnie Smiths Puppy Development I and Puppy Development II with The Silent Command. Ive researched and bought a ton of puppy training this and thats from several different trainers... The huntsmith Videos by far are the ones Im going to go with.

Thats my two cents if you havent checked those out?

-Mky

okiebirdhunter · Post by **okiebirdhunter** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:19 pm

Don't get me wrong on Scott Miller's video... I think it's very informative... the dogs just seem confused. And also you can see Shadow's Attitude(Cash) being trained.

Dave Walker's video "Meat on the Table" I think is a decent video. It's done in a fairly conversational manner. He basically talks through the whole video as if you are right there with him. He is very logical and matter of fact. He uses carded pigeons which is new to me and I thought was interesting. He gives very practical solutions and advice that most people wouldn't give.

Ferrell Miller's video shows alot of good dog work. I think. This video appeals mostly to those who are competitive. Not necessarily one who is a field trialer but one who wants to have better than his hunting buddies. His whoa post work is scary but I guess it works. Personally I just don't like that particular section of the video. Many of his segments he seems to leave you hanging and just kinda shows you what he uses but doesn't show you how(i.e whoa bench and barrel). While I wouldn't do many of the things he does on the video(like a choke chain on whoa post) it apparently has worked for him.

I would say the most light handed approach that leaves style in a dog out of all of the videos is Delmar Smith's first video with the pinch collar.

The most heavy handed would be Ferrell Miller.

The one with the most gadgets needed to train is George Hickox(This is also the most professional video.. George never seems nervous and has an excellent presentation.)

The video with the most devulged information is without question Dave Walker's Meat on the Table(since most other video's are very shallow..most trainers don't tell you all they know but Dave gives alot more than the others)

There is a synopsis of some of these videos at
http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/tapeintro.html
if any of you are interested.

I always take away something in each video. I think the best videos would be those that have methods that you can incorporate modifications to them and tailor them to your dog.

John Bellah
OKC, OK

okiebirdhunter · Post by **okiebirdhunter** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:29 pm

Bluff, did you like the PD2 video as much as the PD1?? I wasn't real pleased with it. I think the whole segment with Rick introducing that Brittany pup to a dead quail was way too long. I would have enjoyed seeing a greater variety of pups getting the same lesson than 1 pup for 10 minutes chewing on a dead bird. The rest of the video was ho hum. It just seemed shallow. I also thought they should have used more dogs in the 12 to 18 wk range... Just my opinion though.

I will say that the Puppy Development videos are a must if you are going to use the SCS method.

John Bellah
OKC, OK

okiebirdhunter · Post by **okiebirdhunter** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:42 pm

I would say that Dave gives enough information to confuse a newbie. I am not familiar with the Perfection videos. How do they teach whoa??

John Bellah
OKC,OK

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:11 pm

Wow when a guy ask for something on this forum he gets it...

I want to thank everyone. I think the overwhelming response of watch them all and talk with the trainer to develop a training program that is going to work for me and my dogs situation. I want to thank everyone for their input. I have about three weeks till darlin comes home and I am one excited daddy.

THANKS

KY Grouse Hunter · Post by **KY Grouse Hunter** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:08 am

personally, I like the Hickox videos but thats just me.

Kory · Post by **Kory** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:23 am

Trigger where in Texas are you located.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:13 pm

Hey Kory! I see your new avatar!!!

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Kory wrote:Trigger where in Texas are you located.

I am in Lubbock

BluffCountryOutdoors · Post by **BluffCountryOutdoors** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:29 pm

Okie,

Yeah I scratched my head after PD2, Not that I thought it was bad, just that it did seem shallow, short.. I loved PD1. I have yet to watch The SCS.

I was wondering about these Perfection Videos people are talking about?

What and who makes/trains those videos?

Overall I like and will start my pup on PD1 and go from there....

Mky

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:45 pm

Thanks everyone