obeidience classes?

jbr03 · Post by **jbr03** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:22 pm

so my girlfriend and now even my mom have sorta ganged up on me with the demand that i take my 4.5 month old pointer to an obeidience class. i personally dont think the dog is so bad. she begs, jumps up, and is getting to that point where she doesnt listen to anybody but me, but isnt that pretty much to be expected for such a young dog? shes got the "come" command down pretty good and knows what "NO" means, so its not like im not repremanding her when she pops up on the counter to take a look. ive just built a johnny house and am going sometime in the next 2 weeks to get birds to get her on some quail for the first time. so she hasnt even had any experience with birds except for chasing the egrets that follow the bush hog ive read about how not to teach a pointer to sit, ect. and what the consequences are. would these 6 classes they want me to take be one step forward at least in house training yet 2 steps back in field training? i have the ultimate decision but id like to hear some other opinions.

shollis · Post by **shollis** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:39 pm

There's a lot more to obedience training than "sit". Right now, it sounds like your dog sees herself as the #2 dog with your girlfriend and your mom as sub-ordinates.

If the dog is ever left alone with either of them, they need to be in control. Your dog needs to know her place in the pack because things can change. What if you get married and have children? If it's a dog that stays inside with other people besides you, then I am of the opinion that your dog should obey everyone in the house. That may mean your girlfriend and mom working with her on basic obedience.

Just my opinion.

smilinicon · Post by **smilinicon** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:49 pm

80% of the training will be for you. You will be amazed at how well your dog can act within minutes. Lot of little things you don't even think of.

Also, I have noticed that some women just say too much to the dog when a word would do.

jbr03 · Post by **jbr03** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:48 pm

its just me and my girlfriend living with the dog. my parents live on the 850 acres that i train her on and i bring her into the house when i go inside. my sister normally has her one year old son playing in the house and my dog will take toys that are just laying around, not out of the babys hand or anything. like i said i dont think the dog is so bad, its just the little things that she does that nobody likes such as trying to steal food off plates and such. i used to put her in the crate when i ate and because i moved into a bigger house i havent done it so ill probably start that again. but my mom wont let her back in the house until shes the perfect dog basically! im not for the obedience class so i guess i better start building the outdoor kennel for when shes at my parents place!

SwitchGrassWPG · Post by **SwitchGrassWPG** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:03 pm

I had my 3 mo old pup with me at obedience class being used as an example dog when I was teaching. I'm a believer your dog can never be too obedient. Sit was one of the first commands she was taught with no ill effects on her field performance. I really don't think obedience will set your dog back in the field, unless you are unnecessarily hard on it and it's temperament is on the soft side.

If you dog lacks manners, it'll definitely be unwelcome in most people's homes.

My 2 cents.

Jay

hubweims · Post by **hubweims** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:21 pm

I agree with switch and smilin on this one. obedience work is a must if it lives in the house. remember you may hunt your dog 3-4 months out of the year, but it will live with you in the house for all 12. plus, sounds to me like you have dog with bad manners and you are chalking it up to her just being a pup. you know that annoying kid at the supermarket that you can't believe their parents let them get away with that? well, in those parents eyes they don't see the problems they are causing. Love makes up blind. it is true with dogs as much as it is with kids. they other great thing about obedience training is that it will be great socialization for your dog. if she is an only dog and you want to maybe hunt her with other dogs in the future, it is great to have her around other dogs now. it's great at obedience b/c it's a semi-formal setting with limitations on the pups. My dogs always go to obedience class. even though i know how to teach the commands and what i expect out of my dogs, you really can't beat the socialization training. most classes are set up to teach you how to train your dog. if you learn a command in class one night that you don't like, don't teach it. if the instructor asks why, just tell them and they will understand. Obedience trainers understand there are different goals with field dogs.

Goosehunterdog · Post by **Goosehunterdog** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:21 am

Obedience is one of the top priorities for my dogs.It is mainly taught first thing!!!! IMO it makes for a MUCH better hunting & family companion!! Funny thing is when in the house they listen to the wife and kids but in the field they will only listen to me!!!!! Good Luck with your pup!!!

stuartjeff · Post by **stuartjeff** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:48 pm

I'm a fan of obedience classes as well but I wouldn't stop with just classes. I currently have a five month old GSP and I've never trained a bird dog before so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, I can't imagine living with a dog who can't mind his manners. Sure you've got to let a pup be a pup but that doesn't mean you need to let him walk all over you or your girlfriend (or anybody for that matter).

I started with obedience from day one and would do the same no matter what kind of dog I had. During "formal" training I wouldn't use force or even really give any correction on a young dog and instead focus on giving praise and treats when he does something right. However, that "formal" training is only done a couple of times a day for around 15 minutes at a time at most - that leaves a ton of time that you are just hanging out with your dog and I think its important for your dog to never doubt your authority for a second during that time. That doesn't mean be a tyrant, it just means that you need to make sure your dog understands what is and is not acceptible behavior.

Make some rules that will remain constant and NEVER let your dog break those rules no matter where you are. For my dog he can't pick things up that aren't "his", he can't get on my wife and my bed unless he is invited, he can't dig or scratch things up, he can't wreck anything that isn't "his", he can't bite or gnaw on people, he can't hump people, he can't jump up on people, he can't eat or try to eat anything that isn't given to him, he can't use the bathroom in the house, and he can't bark once my wife or I have told him to stop. That is all.

My inforcement started gently while he was learning the rules. When he broke the rules then he would get a firm no and then if applicable I'd replace whatever he was doing wrong with something right. Like if he grabbed my sock off the floor then I'd tell him no, make him give me the sock, praise him for giving me the sock, give him his rope toy, and praise him for playing with it. Just be sure to keep your composure at all times. Don't get angry just be cold calculated and consistent with corrections. Just be patient because in the beginning you will be correcting him virtually all the time.

I also use a Caesar Milan trick as well. If a young dog is being really stubborn about responding to no then forcefully walk over to him and with the tips of your fingers just give him a quick tap on the thigh. You're not hitting your dog here but just touching him with authority. The idea is that your are giving a corrective nip much like his mother would do with her teeth when he gets out of line in the litter. After a few times of that display just saying no will get the job done. After a few weeks he'll stop the behavior entirely.

Not only will your dog be learning how to behave but through the training you will be building a relationship with your dog. I think a dog that knows what is expected of him, knows what he can do to make you happy, is a mentally stimulated and happy dog. I've been doing this with my dog ever since I got him at 10 weeks and now corrections only come every few days. He knows the rules and he follows them happily. Just try to keep your dog well exercised, don't lose your temper, only correct him while he is doing the bad behavior and not after he has already done it, be firm but calm, and in general maintain an air of authority around your dog. Clarity, repetition, and consistency will get you where you want to go.

Hope that helps

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:22 pm

A 4.5 month old dog of any kind should not go to an obedience class. Obedience classes will generally not accept dogs under 6 months, although you will sometimes see puppy classes that are not truly training, they are simply conditioning the dog to be trained when it is older. I would not put a pointer through an obedience class period, however. Your chances of finding an obedience trainer who has the first clue about how to train a pointing dog are very small.

Obedience is the starting point with labs because they are retrievers and flushers. Retriever/flusher people do not want that dog out of gun range except to retrieve a downed bird. The job of a pointer, as a hunting dog, is to go out, find, and point game birds for you. The place to start with a pointer, which is a bird dog not a flusher, is with birds. The way to ruin a pointer is to start it with "sit, stay."

There is nothing wrong with teaching a young bird dog manners around the house, such as "no" and "down," down in this case meaning don't jump on the counter or whatever you do not want the pup to be up on. Not "down" as in "charge," meaning to lay down.

Most pointer people want a dog that hunts with style and animation. Obedience at such a young age will make sure that never happens.

The problem with non-dog people in a household is that they want you, the dog person, to make the dog behave for them. If the dog is going to live in the house, it is their responsibility as well as yours to make the dog well mannered.

Young pups of any breed are a challenge, just as are young children. From your description, given that you have a johnny house set up and are starting to work the pup on birds and some manners around the house, you are dead on the right track.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:27 pm

I took my last GSP pup to a puppy kindergarten but had a nice talk with the instructor prior to signing up and we both agreed upon the expectations and what we would or would not do. It was basically used as a socialization tool.

My dogs are house dogs and I pick a handful of things that the don't must be able to do or not to do to be a housedog. These are very basic ie, stay off the counter, don't eat the furniture, etc.. This type doesn't hamper any drive or desire. But when they are out in the field or yard as a pup, let em be, let them discover the great big world on thier own and have fun. The dog needs to build his boldness and confidence while outside, not be hammered with obediance drills.

stuartjeff · Post by **stuartjeff** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:37 pm

original mngsp wrote:But when they are out in the field or yard as a pup, let em be, let them discover the great big world on thier own and have fun. The dog needs to build his boldness and confidence while outside, not be hammered with obediance drills.

I completely agree and should have included that in my first post. I also try to avoid giving any commands while out in the field at that young stage. I do all of my obedience work inside - when we go outside to run he gets to explore and play however he wants.

On another related note, I'd avoid comforting the dog at all times. If he gets scared of something then just remain calm and aloof. He'll learn to deal with it on his own and build confidence. As long as you keep him out of truly dangerous situations he'll be fine. The trick is that you've got to convince your girlfriend to do the same.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:04 pm

I personally think Come and No are about all you need to be teaching at this point, so you are doing good. Obedience is entirely up to the individual, some people cannot live with a dog unless they are in control of their every move. I have a 15 yr old that has lived in the house since he was born, he's a 10x NSTRA Ch that still does not know Sit. Not a problem:)

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:33 pm

snips wrote:I have a 15 yr old that has lived in the house since he was born, he's a 10x NSTRA Ch that still does not know Sit. Not a problem:)

Not to change the subject but... Brenda how is old Rip doing these days? It would appear he is still fairly healthy? Remarkable....

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:40 pm

He seems to be doing pretty good. His rear is weakening, biggest problem is can no longer jump on the bed, still handles the couch:) He will be 16 in Sept, he is still pretty sassy, thinks he gets 3 meals a day now, and usually does.

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:00 pm

That's Incredible.

He's like the eveready bunny, keeps going... and going... and going...