Walking at heel tips

[James Johnson]

Let me start by saying I have never trained a dog to the extent I am wanting to train this one. I have read many books, forums topics, training guides, etc.
I am trying to train my 1.5 yr old Brittany to walk at heel.
I put him on a short check cord and basically go for a walk around the block. I first ask him to sit then stay. He does this excited as can be but does do it.
Then I command heel and begin walking and he begins pulling. I pull him in on my leg and command heel.. Over and over this occurs and he never lets up. I try to change directions and command heel and he will go my direction but wants to continue to pull. I feel like the entire walk I am darn near holding his front feet off the ground I am pulling him in so much. He never lets up.

Tonight I tried again. Same story.> this time when he started pulling I asked him to sit.. he complied. Then I command heel and start walking. and a pulling he goes.. I tried the Sit command a few more times and then tried again. Same story.

What else can I do. I feel like this is never ending.

[Don]

When he step's out in front of you, if his head so much as get's past your knee, turn into him. Bend down as far as you can with your left knee and if you get low enough, bump him with your knee. Now and again do a complete 180 on him. Do the 180 both into him and away from him. You have to keep him paying attention.

When you do turn into him, even if he yelp's, ignor him and keep going. Don't get yourself into a rut, make him pay attention!

[ezzy333]

Do all of those manuvers silently after you have told him to heal once. The purpose is to make him pay attention to you and not you telling him what to do. he will figure it out after you step on him or knee him.

I think that is what you are saying Don,

Ezzy

[Casper]

Here is an article that might be of some help.

IMHO the "Wonder (Command) lead" will greatly improve your success

http://huntsmith.com/articles/TheCommandLead.htm

[Don]

Do all of those manuvers silently after you have told him to heal once. The purpose is to make him pay attention to you and not you telling him what to do. he will figure it out after you step on him or knee him.

I think that is what you are saying Don,

Ezzy

Absolutely!

[Lab Man]

The key to teaching heal is teaching the dog where its comfortable zone is. I will first use a flat collar and a lead to teach heal. If the dog walks to far ahead it gets a lead correction. If the dog walks to far behind it gets a lead correction. If the dog stays right at my left leg it will get a soothing "Good" verbal cue. This shows the dog that this is where it want to be. Once I have properly taught the dog with the lead I will go to a pinch collar. I will use the same corrections as before. It does not take the dog long to learn where the safe spot is. Now with a pinch collar you dont have to apply alot of pressure to make it uncomfortable for the dog. Good luck

Gun Dog Sponsor: Member discounts. E-mail me at mark@coonriverkennels.com for details.

[h20fwlkillr]

Another to try I have found useful, is to make the dog sit and stay by your side. Sort of like a short time out. It can get some dogs to pay attention.

[gonehuntin']

You should be teaching all these things in the same obedience session:Here, Whoa, Heel, and if you want, Sit. The easiest method both for you and the dog will be with the use of a heeling stick. It is held in your right hand angled across your left leg. When the dog tries to pass your knee, slap his chest, jerk back on the lead, and command Heel. Then start heeling drills with him. As you're walking, say "Heel" and turn 180 degrees to the left. Keep tapping the dogs chest and force him around as you turn. Command "Whoa". Step ahead and command "Heel". Go 20', turn to the right 180 degrees and command "Here". Walk a ways and command "Whoa". Slap his chest if he doesn't stop and jerk the lead. Keep doing this until he's flawless. On the "Whoa" you should eventually be able to walk around the dog, tug silently on the lead, and have him stand there. Now finish the Heel command. To do this correctly for a hunting dog, from a "Whoa" position, the dog walks toward your LEFT side, gets even with your leg, and turns facing front and either just whoa's or sits. Same deal with the heeling stick here; as he's coming to you, on lead, guide him through the turn with the stick and lead. You will find this the least used method of teaching heel to a pointing dog, but each and every retriever is trained like this. The heeling stick gives the dog a visual cue as to where it's head should be in relation to your knee and how to turn. Great for sit also I may add.

[gr_elliott]

I have used the 180 turn, it has worked pretty well. The mistake I made was to have a final destination of the same place to throw some fun time bumpers everytime. The dog figured out the route, so when I would turn 180 he was like glue to me just waiting for me to turn back around. lesson learned on my part

[James Johnson]

those sound like some great ideas and I really appreciate everyones response.
I am going to try Don and Ezzy tips to see how they work.

Gonehuntin,
So I should be training the dog 4 commands in the same training sessions? I have read that training sit and whoa together came be confusing. I do want to train Whoa but havent started yet. Should I?

Casper thanks for the article I am printing it out now.

[schultz's honor]

In the past I have always done my heel training with either a choke collar or a pinch collar.
Out of curiosity, I picked up a heeling stick, and this tool is fantastic (in the right hands of course).
When my dog proceeded past my knee, I just reached across with my free hand and "tapped" and I reiterate "tapped" him in the chest with the healing stick.
One evening walk and he fell right in line.
Be advised that this tool is not for everybody. In the wrong hands it could be desasterous.

[Don]

[IMG][IMG]
Be advised that this tool is not for everybody. In the wrong hands it could be desasterous.

As can any training device or method!

[PAHunter]

One of the key's to getting your dog to heel is to teach the dog to pay attention to your every movement and find the safe zone. I've tried the stick method that gonehuntin explained and it's a great tool to teach the dog to pay attention, then I transition the dog into the force or pinch collar.

[Mntngoat]

I too like the wonder lead and while Rex is still learning to walk at heel , the wonder lead has made it easier easier to train.

Michael

[hubweims]

i think that it is important also to teach your dog heel from out in front of you. with leash, check cord, possibly pinch collar, and dog out in front of you while you are standing still, give the heel command and start gently leading you dog to heel. helps them realize that heel means get at my left side no matter if we are walking or not. you might can start after a come command and when the dog approaches and is getting close give the heel command and gently guide dog to position. the great thing about this is eventually you dog may start heeling off of a come command. another drill for tightening up heel position, if you dogs seems to loose like sideways on left or too far out away from reach is to heel along close to a wall. if you want to practice just the position without walking inside, have your dog heel while you stand close the kitchen cabinets leaving only the desired room between you and cabinet for him to get between. if you would like to walk and dog seems to be getting too loose, walk him along the side of you house so he can't get away from you. when heeling along a wall/counter it's okay for you dog to have to walk completely by you and have to turn around and come back to heel. you are just teaching position. he will come to heel when he learns and simply turn by your side in the future. if you are really interested in obedience you can start the heeling around from behind you where the dog comes in on right walks just behind you comes to heel which finishes with a sit.

[snips]

I have always used a simple choke chain, with a sharp little snap when dog pulls, then loosen up. They will learn to back off of pulling.

[rnbiii]

I have always used a simple choke chain, with a sharp little snap when dog pulls, then loosen up. They will learn to back off of pulling.

I used the same method with a 6yr old GSP I was given who had never had a minute of training in his life. It worked very well.

[James Johnson]

Well I just went out and gave Scout a 10 minute training session. It went well. After about 3 minutes of me turning into and away from him he gave in and I was able to walk him at heel for about 4 or 5 minutes around the yard.

So maybe his technique will work. I plan on doing at least two more 10-15 minute sessions today. Should i be working Whoa with this or just one at the time. I have been working sit with heel but he already knows that command.

Thanks again for the help. So far it has been very helpful.

[AceofSpades41]

Congrats James on a great start

[ezzy333]

I would stick with the heeling for a bit. You can always tell him Whoa when you stop but don't put extra pressure on to have him comply. Just be firm with the heel while walking and also when you are standing and he will probably start picking it up. Don't be surprised if he forgets everthing he has learned when he sees another dog or get excited but make sure you keep him at heel.

Ezzy

[Don]

Hubwiems Post:

i think that it is important also to teach your dog heel from out in front of you. with leash, check cord, possibly pinch collar, and dog out in front of you while you are standing still, give the heel command and start gently leading you dog to heel. helps them realize that heel means get at my left side no matter if we are walking or not. you might can start after a come command and when the dog approaches and is getting close give the heel command and gently guide dog to position. the great thing about this is eventually you dog may start heeling off of a come command. another drill for tightening up heel position, if you dogs seems to loose like sideways on left or too far out away from reach is to heel along close to a wall. if you want to practice just the position without walking inside, have your dog heel while you stand close the kitchen cabinets leaving only the desired room between you and cabinet for him to get between. if you would like to walk and dog seems to be getting too loose, walk him along the side of you house so he can't get away from you. when heeling along a wall/counter it's okay for you dog to have to walk completely by you and have to turn around and come back to heel. you are just teaching position. he will come to heel when he learns and simply turn by your side in the future. if you are really interested in obedience you can start the heeling around from behind you where the dog comes in on right walks just behind you comes to heel which finishes with a sit.

____________________________________________________________

What it sound's like you are saying is called the recall and the finish in the obedience world. Come or here or what ever you want for the recall which means to come in and sit in front of you. Once the dog has displayed the recall it is finished with the heel command. I don't know that that is necessary in the bird dog world but at the same time I doubt it would hurt either

Some retriever trainer's finish the dog to come in and around the back of the handler to the heel position to complete the retrieve.

First, start the training on a 6' leash, not a check cord. After the dog is heeling well, stop and sit him at heel. Give him a stay and step out in front of him and face him. Step off with your right foot, your left lead may well pull him. In fact, when you are doing heeling, always lead with the left leg as it does help pull the dog. Left leg lead = heel, right leg lead = stay.

There are now two ways to finish the dog from sitting in front to the heel position one where it goes around behind you and one called the "flip" finish. Around behind first:

with the dog sitting in front of you pass the lead around behind yourself to your left hand. Shorten up and give the heel command and lead with your left leg. Take a couple step's while pulling the dog's leash around you. Your left knee moving forward will block the dog to your right and the lead will guide him around. Two steps and stop and have him sitting next to you. Over and over until he get's up and starts around befor you take the first step; just stand and let him finish. At the same time you'll also be working on the recall, still on the 6' lead. Now when you re-call the dog, back up and just as he gets to you and befor he sit's, command him to heel and walk into him and continue walking, left leg lead. If you've done your job properly he'll go right to heel. Now start working him farther out but instead of come, call him to heel. Heel is a place and you have been conditioning him to get to that place by going behind you.

The flip finish:
With your dog sitting in front of you, get the lead short, real short. Take one step back with your left leg, left leg only, when you give the heel command. Doing so you open up the left side for him. At the same time flip him around to your left side with the leash, step back forward with the left leg and straighten up the dog. When he's 100% that way, go to the longer recall and heel him befor he sit's in front of you. He's then so used to the flip, it's the only thing he know's.

If you try to do this, either one, on a check cord, you'll probally find the length getting in your way. The proper tool for this job would be the 6' leash.

[hubweims]

i absolutely agree with the use of leash. however, on here it seems to be a forgotten tool. however, when i mentioned the cc my intention was to have him on it for the recall. never give a command that you can't inforce. with a young dog if i give come command i expect him/her to come. check cord enables you to work recall at greater distances than six feet when the dog is ready, and is sure to get dog into come.

there are plenty of commands you can teach. i think many people forget this as well. most dogs vocab can withstand like 80-90 words. i do believe in obedience training. however, my dogs aren't finished per say as you described. I have finished them to what i expect out of my dog:

heel = get to my left side and sit. when i start walking (left foot first) walk beside me and don't leave or loaf behind, and when i stop you stop beside me with a sit.

come= get to me asap. get close enough that i can put my hands on you and your collar. taught this like obedience training with them driving in and placing their head/nose between my thighs. it has morphed into the field with get to me now and i want to be able to touch/pet you. i haven't finished the recall or come to a heel. i didn't see a need for it. i do not compete in obedience, and what i have them doing now works for me and my hunting style. however, from the come and petting if given heel command they will heel.

here= get into my general area. i like to refer to it as i want to be able to spit on you or get to you if i need to. don't have to come all the way in, but i want them with in a couple yards from me.

My weims have been through retriever training as well. I have them retrieve to hand, whistle trained, blind retrieve with lining drills, cast and retrieve with hand signals. I did not finish the retrieve to heel as do most retriever guys who run/show their dogs. The akc doesn't recognize weimaraners as a retrieving breed so it would have been all for not. my dogs are still young and i wasn't wanting to add the extra pressure to break it down anymore, but as they get older who knows. it will give me more to work on with them and an excuse to spend more time with them. they love it. now, they retrieve to hand and that is more than i say for the other dogs that we hunt with.

[Don]

hubweims,

Maybe I've misunderstood what you said. Here's the first sentence or two.

"think that it is important also to teach your dog heel from out in front of you. with leash, check cord, possibly pinch collar, and dog out in front of you while you are standing still, give the heel command and start gently leading you dog to heel".


This is best done on the 6' leash so you can perform the move immediately. Once the dog has it, then you can move it out farther. Right in front first, then 6' out where you call the dog and back up, then as the dog get's there give the heel command and walk forward at the same time. If your dog can't do that at 6' It'll never do it from 20' or 25'. On top of that you are going to be busy not only watching your dog to time the heel command but you have to control that check cord and get the correction right away if the dog need's it. Maybe I miss-understood what you were saying above. What this leads into is the dog coming in to heel from the front.

Now let's assume you do do it on the check cord from 20' to 25' away. The dog come's in, you are a bit short of having control of the check cord, the dog get's there and sticks it's nose into your thigh's as you said, your correction is going to be late and you can't enforce it for the loose check cord on the ground. You finished up that paragraph with this:

"check cord enables you to work recall at greater distances than six feet when the dog is ready, and is sure to get dog into come."

Five key words here, "when the dog is ready". If it doesn't know how to finish, why would you expect him to? If you want him to heel from in front of you I'm afraid your gonna have to teach him how.

[ezzy333]

I don't think I see a reason for the dog to finish when in the field. If he came in and handed me the bird and took off again I would be really happy. Want the dog hunting instead of sitting at my side.

Ezzy

[Don]

I think your right but the man suggested it. I did use it on horse back tho. I'd call in the dog's and heel them to the horse. I tried a check cord lead and it ended up under the horse to much.

[Margaret]

Dog won't heel but forges ahead, it wants to be in control and you the follower.

Simplest way; set your eyes on an object to walk to and set off. Soon as dog forges ahead just a little turn away from the dog and back in the direction you were walking. Not a curve but a sharp turn directly back on your line of walk. Give the leash a snap to tug dog up to you and let is go loose immediately. As you do this give the heel command.
Soon as dog goes ahead, quick turn back on line of walk. In that way you are continually putting yourself in front of the dog and it will quickly figure it out. No praise until the dog is walking beside you.

[hubweims]

Don,

i absolutely agree. the best tool for training obedience is the leash. if you notice my first post, it is the first tool mentioned. i must have not been clear enough in my post. maybe i should have used the word or when mentioning the cc. see, i think you would be amazed at how many people, especially new dog owners, don't own a lead. it seems that everyone is buying flexis or runner leads. new dog owners seem to run out to wal-mart or petsmart and get their new puppy a collar and flexi. if the new owner frequents this site before getting his new pup, the first tool he/she will buy is goin to be a cc. every post about gundog training on here mentions the use of a check cord. i guess i what i meant was that it could be done with a cc. you can make a cc a 6' lead and let the access drag behind or toss it to the right side if working dog in front up close. granted it will be much more difficult than using a 6' leash, but still you could get it done. by far though, the best tool for obedience work w/o a doubt is a lead followed by a pinch collar. the pinch collars look mean but are more humane than any other traditional training collar out there.

with regards to suggesting a finish recall to heel, i didn't train this way. i didn't see the point. my dog comes on command, and then i will either release them or give the heel command. they can get better praises being in front rather than on my left. i was only making a suggestion to the o.p. if he was interested in working obedience or competition obedience.

[hubweims]

margaret,

working 180's is great for heel. however, i would not recommend pulling up on the dog. if you are teaching an 8 month old gsp or weim that weighs 40-60 lbs that is pulling hard, the added pressure can be too much for person and dog. i found that bending every so lightly at the waist and giving a firm snap of the lead backwards seems to be safer for the dog. also, it seems to get a better response from the dog. if you stand straight up while heeling and then tug upwards on lead you are simply adding more pressure to what the dog is already experiencing by pulling. if you bend slightly and snap backwards so that the lead is parallel to dog's back, you change the angle of the pressure being applied to the collar. it seems to get a better response from the dogs. also, if dog is pulling hard add a pinch collar. choke collars and traditional latch/buckle collars can cut off oxygen to the dog (like a sleeper hold in wrestling). dogs will make themselves vomit, choke, gag, and cough. the prongs of a pinch collar exert even pressure throughout the collar without cutting off oxygen supply.

not all dogs are neccessarily being dominant by leading out front. the dogs are born to run in front and hunt for us. with so much time being spent on running out front finding birds as pups building drive, not many of them will understand heeling. it's in their genetics to be explorers/hunters, and that's hard with only 4 or 6 foot (depending on length of lead) of free space.

[gonehuntin']

The reason a dog is taught to finish a retrieve, facing front, is so that if another bird falls he can see it. He is also facing the correct direction to be immediately cast and resume the hunt. Just a matter of preference really, don't know if there's a right of wrong to it. With a Retriever, it's a must.

[ezzy333]

That was my opinon too. Retrievers finish and face forward and normally the pointers just deliver and go.

Ezzy

[Margaret]

Hi Hubweims

I'm not fully sure what you describing, but I did neglect to say I have a faily short leash so there is not huge pressure in the jerk of the leash as I turn about. And I expect I usually do bend a little to look back at the dog and check when to tug dog up, usually as it begins to turn.

In the hunt the dog is taking the lead and we the follower. In the heel we take the lead and the dog is the follower

[James Johnson]

Well training continued through the weekend. I worked with Scout on Heel 2-4 times a day for 10-15 minutes each session. He is doing very well in the backyard but still wanting to pull a little at times. probably 10% of the time.

Tonight I decided to take him for a walk around the block. Which brough up a question> Is it okay to let him walk out in front on a long lead or should I keep him on a short leash and make him heel at all times on a leash? Tonight I let him walk out in front(20ft leash) exploring for half the walk then asked him to heel for the end of the walk and he walked at ease next to me for about 35% of the time the other 65% I was having to hold him back next to my side and turn into him, etc.

[ezzy333]

Nothing wrong with the long cord. But when you want him to heal give the command and make him do it till you release him.

Ezzy

[hubweims]

I agree with ezzy. don't ask you dog to heel. give the command and make him do it until you release him. you must have a release command. it can be as simple as "ok."

[James Johnson]

Just an update on Scouts progress thusfar.
I made an appointment with a Pro Gundog trainer in the area and yesterday Scout and i went for training.
Boy was i impressed and glad I decided to get some HANDS ON help.

We had Scout heeling really well within 30 minutes and that was with many distractions like geese, water, other dogs, people, etc. I was and still am very excited about the progress we made and cant wait to get home to take him for a walk to day to continue what I learned yesterday.

For anyone else out there learning about training, I can honestly say my biggest issue was talking too much. Whether it be to say NO, good, Heel, or whatever.. Just putting him on the leash and starting to walk with no voice seems to be the best way to start. Still using some hints I got on this sit, ie. turning into him stopping, changing directions but not talking.

All I can say is WOW what a difference keeping my mouth shut made.

Obviously I am not even close to being done with the HEEL command but can see the light at the end of the tunnel finally.

I hesitated to send him off for training because I wanted to do it. I am glad that I finally let someone help me help him though.

Thanks guys for you suggestions and support.