What is so bad about force fetch?

[stuartjeff]

I've seen several people here mention that they don't like to force fetch their dogs, or they don't want to force fetch a younger dog, etc. Maybe I just don't understand what is meant by force fetching but why do people seem to have an aversion to it? It was my understanding that to force fetch a dog you start with your finger, tell him fetch, jam it in his mouth, make him hold it, and then make him release it when you say give. Is it just that you have to blow on his ear, pinch his toe, etc. to get him to open his mouth and then push his gum into his tooth to get him to release at first?

I spoke with an experienced NAVHDA guy who suggested I start teaching this to my pup when he was about 15 weeks old. Maybe it is just my pup's disposition but I don't really have to do anything to get him to take something in his mouth other than say fetch. On the give I did have to press his tooth into his gum for a few weeks but now he drops whatever he's got in his mouth out immediately when I say give. I've now moved up to a force fetch dummy and he seems to enjoy using that a lot more than my hand and actually gets excited when its time for the training. I only do it about once a day three or four times and he seems to really enjoy it. Is that not typical? Am I a sadist because I wasn't particularly bothered by the small amount of discomfort I gave to my dog to teach him those commands? Have I just not gotten to the disturbing part?

[Dirtysteve]

15 weeks and trying to teach anything with pressure is a sure way to cause big problems later on.
Force fetching is not just pinching ears. It is a whole process you go through starting with hold and a pinch. It can be very hard on dogs and most will hate every minute of it until they learn pain stops as soon as the object is in there mouth.
Also when you start the force fetch you have to stick with it everyday until finished or you will have problems that will be very hard to correct.
If your pup is showing natural desire to retrieve then praise him and make it fun.
For what it's worth I wouldn't be trying to teach anything but his name and come until he is alot older.

[mtlee]

Well some people believe its bad for the breed as a whole to force fetch because by forcing a dog to fetch you are not selecting for a "natural retriever" trait. It becomes a command and not "instinct" to retrieve.

I think force fetching puts a lot of pressure on a dog. I've only done it once (w/ my current dog), but it was hard on her. I had to pinch her ear pretty hard to get her to open and take a dummy on command at times. Its not that she hated holding dummies, I could throw one and she would run and get it...I think it was just that she didn't like being told when to do it. I have never heard of doing this w/ a 15 week old pup. I think it would put too much stress on them. With force fetch, fetching becomes a command, not a game. Not to say that it can't be fun, but if I drop my keys on the ground and say fetch my dog will pick them up (just illustrating that she knows fetch means "ok, pick something up and hold it till he tells me give")

Just my opinion...

[stuartjeff]

He is 19 weeks now and for all I know he could end up being nothing but problems down the road. I really don't push the little guy hard at all and he always seems happy. He gets WAY more praise than he gets corrections.

The man who showed this stuff to me has been training bird dogs for several decades and he had an 11 year old and a 3 year old with him. Both dogs were VERY well trained. I have no idea if I should have taken his advice but he certainly seemed to know his dogs and he is the only gun dog trainer who has spent any time with my dog so I gave him the benifit of the doubt.

At this point my pup seems to think that holding the dummy for me is just another game. I don't make him hold it long and try to set things up so that he will always do well. I really heap on the praise and haven't had to do anything that causes him pain in a while. Like I said, he really gets excited when he seems the force fetch dummy and seems to enjoy it.

[AHGSP]

[gonehuntin']

I've seen several people here mention that they don't like to force fetch their dogs, or they don't want to force fetch a younger dog, etc. Maybe I just don't understand what is meant by force fetching but why do people seem to have an aversion to it? It was my understanding that to force fetch a dog you start with your finger, tell him fetch, jam it in his mouth, make him hold it, and then make him release it when you say give. Is it just that you have to blow on his ear, pinch his toe, etc. to get him to open his mouth and then push his gum into his tooth to get him to release at first?

Golly, where to start........I believe that you will find "force" to be the most misunderstood and misconceived topic on this board. Everything in this life if forced. You are "forced" to go to school, "forced" to obey the law, "forced" to get a job and earn money. Why shouldn't a dog be? Force is not making a dog retrieve that has no retrieving desire, it is polishing the retrieve in a dog that does have retrieving desire. It used to be, 30+ years ago that a dog was forced until it stopped retrieving, then forced to retrieve. This was considered a reliably force broken dog. Today, things have changed a lot. This is no longer done, at least by any reputable pro. Dogs are force broken to pick up an object, hold that object, and deliver that object to hand, holding it untile instructed to drop it, and all of that done with the minimal amount of pressure that the individual dog requires. That act is accomplished by pinching his gums first, then the ear, then either a mild stick fetch or the transference to a collar directly. He is taught to with drop by using some of the same techniques. It is a relatively lengthy process to describe, so that's the quick and dirty.

I spoke with an experienced NAVHDA guy who suggested I start teaching this to my pup when he was about 15 weeks old

This was NOT an experienced NAVHDA guy, or just a stupid one. You would never ff a 15 week old pup. Six months would be a minimum and eight would be better.

Maybe it is just my pup's disposition but I don't really have to do anything to get him to take something in his mouth other than say fetch. On the give I did have to press his tooth into his gum for a few weeks but now he drops whatever he's got in his mouth out immediately when I say give. I've now moved up to a force fetch dummy and he seems to enjoy using that a lot more than my hand and actually gets excited when its time for the training. I only do it about once a day three or four times and he seems to really enjoy it. Is that not typical? Am I a sadist because I wasn't particularly bothered by the small amount of discomfort I gave to my dog to teach him those commands? Have I just not gotten to the disturbing part?

Please before you continue with him, get a decent book or dvd. I never enjoyed nor do I till this day, inflicting any pain on a dog at all. It is sometimes necessary, never enjoyable. Anyone that enjoys it is sick. You have to get him in and out of force (when he's OLD enough) as quickly as possibly. A pro will have him obedience trained and forced in six weeks. It'll take you two weeks longer.

[gmanksu]

"I really heap on the praise and haven't had to do anything that causes him pain in a while"

I really hope you're not trying to force fetch a 19 week old pup! At this stage it should all be fun and games, get him to love what he is doing while retrieving and you won't have to worry about the force fetch!

[stuartjeff]

I'm not trying to argue with you guys but I just don't quite understand. I have read a half dozen bird dog books and I've watched a couple of DVDs. The advice shared has been everywhere from don't touch your dog at all until he is almost a year old to here's how to have him fully broke in a year. The one thing that seems to be consistent is that everyone says that every dog is different and it is essential to always read the feedback that your dog is giving you. Everyone says to keep it fun at first until he understands what is going on and then and only then do the corrections come into play. I follow these rules religiously and have no interest in harming my dog or causing him any excessive discomfort.

Now just this morning I finished watching the Perfect Start DVDs that several people have suggested. This video shows a 4 month old dog being taught here, heel, and whoa using no treats, little praise, a check cord, and an e-collar in about two weeks. How is me pinching his gum to teach my 4+ month old dog to give me what is in his mouth any more intense? I'm not beating my dog, I'm just showing him what I like and what I don't like. The corrections are so gentle that I can't imagine them harming my particular dog.

I do understand that idea that force fetching is bad for the breeds. A retriever should have a natural retrieve and force fetching is going to cover up whatever natural instinct was there. I see that argument and respect it but there is very little chance that I will ever breed this dog.

[ezzy333]

Stuart,

There is nothing wrong about you pinching the gums. Thgat is just a simple act but the whole FF routine is a couple of months and much more than pinching the gums. Thats why it is suggested you wait till the pup is older and can stand the pressure better.

When to train a dog is subjective also depending what you expect when you are through. If you are satisfied with a dog that is very well trained to the point of being almost mechanical then do it young. If you want an exciting dog to watch, one with independence, that is telling you where the birds are instead of you telling it, then wait. Letting the dog develop it's own abilities is essential if you have any thought of trialing. If your goal is strictly to hunt on foot some small areas then maybe you would like a dog that is always close by and hunts where you want to.

My own thoughts on this can be expressed as one of my pet peeves. I have had so many people come and want a dog because they can't find any birds and then as soon as they get one they tell it where to hunt. If they knew where they didn't need the dog.

Ezzy

[stuartjeff]

It can be very hard on dogs and most will hate every minute of it until they learn pain stops as soon as the object is in there mouth.

I just noticed a key difference in what I was told to do by this NAVHDA man and what you said. I haven't been causing pain and keeping it there until the dog does the right thing. I got him used to the words without corrections at all and only praised for correct behavior. Once he knew the words then I would only pinch him if he didn't respond.

From day one based on the advice of "How to Help Your Gundog Train Himself" when we play retrieve, I've always praised him for returning, let him hold on to the object for a bit, and then told him give. If he didn't give me the object then I gently press his lip into his tooth and he always gave it to me and then he gets praise. He gets even more praise if he gives it to me on his own. I have not noticed it having any impact on his willingness to retrieve. Once I started using my finger and then later the force fetch dummy he pretty much had the give part down. The fetch part was just about pushing the object into his mouth and praising him the second he held it. There really hasn't been any intensity and I don't see how this is different from training any other command.

Look, I don't want to harm my dog and I apologize for all of my posting on this topic but I am bewildered by the reactions that I've gotten so far (especially from gonehuntin') and I just wanted to be sure that I was being clear about what I am actually doing. If you folks think I need to change course then please let me know.

Thanks for the help![/quote]

[stuartjeff]

When to train a dog is subjective also depending what you expect when you are through. If you are satisfied with a dog that is very well trained to the point of being almost mechanical then do it young. If you want an exciting dog to watch, one with independence, that is telling you where the birds are instead of you telling it, then wait. Letting the dog develop it's own abilities is essential if you have any thought of trialing. If your goal is strictly to hunt on foot some small areas then maybe you would like a dog that is always close by and hunts where you want to.

That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for the advice. This is my first time so I don't even know what I want to be honest. I know I'll never field trial him but I am interested in doing the NAVHDA tests. Honestly, I just want to get out and have fun with my dog. However, obedience is important to me. I don't want a robot but I want to be confident that my dog will do the little I ask of him right when I ask him even if that comes at the expense of drive. I want to trust him and I'd like for him to trust me.

as soon as they get one they tell it where to hunt.

A few birds would be nice from time to time but I got a dog because I wanted a pet not because I wanted birds. Now if you can tell me how to train him to tell me where to fish then that would be a different story.

[EWSIV]

Force Fetch at 15 weeks or nineteen weeks would not work because many dogs are teething at this stage. Force fetching a dog while teething is a really bad idea.

[AHGSP]

I would suggest that you read Brenda/Snips article on FF in the articles section here on GDF. I'm not sure that you are completely understanding the ENTIRE process of FF. It does require some pretty stiff pressure and pain to the dog. For that matter, read ALL of the articles you can on FF. You may even want to start with the Orange book and see what it has to say as far as the process details. I think you are only seeing part of the process, correct me if I'm wrong. Nothing wrong with FF, it is more the age and timing.

[stuartjeff]

I would suggest that you read Brenda/Snips article on FF in the articles section here on GDF. I'm not sure that you are completely understanding the ENTIRE process of FF.

I agree. Most of what I have read has focused on upland game hunting and how to encourage natural retrieves. I really haven't read much on force fetching but I thought I understood what was involved. It appears that I thought wrong.

[h20fwlkillr]

I'm probably going to get beat up , but here's my 2 cents anyway. In my opinion 90% of the time FF is not needed. Many people use it as a cure all, or FF dogs that didn't need it. There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the dog being FF and alot of dogs can't handle it. You'll hear how such and such has FF 5 million dogs and never has had a problem. That's crap. I have seen several dogs absolutly ruined by FF that were good dogs before. On the other hand, I've also seen many dogs that were FF with no problems. Before any dog is FF, it should be evaluated to see if it is mentally strong enough and if FF is even needed. There are alternative methods to teach a dog to fetch, hold and retrieve to hand othe than FF.
I've taken several knocks for my belief that obedience should be a top priority, especially for certain breeds. Some of the same people that have showed their disapproval are big on FF which is obedience at it's max. I don't get it.

[Margaret]

Well join the club

FF may well be needed from beginning on an older dog that has no desire to retrieve at all.

But, any dog that likes to play retrieve needs only a brief period of FF training after you have encouraged a sound play retrieve.

For a puppy play retrieve is all that is needed, and it is up to the owner to work out situations that will enhance the puppy retrieving to hand.
For instance, if the pup runs off with the dummy or drops it and goes off exploring then rather than persist in something that is not working go into the hallway at home or put the pup on a long light line. Also work on coming to call with food rewards so pup focuses on you (and the reward) and so learns to respond in situations that have other fun things a pup might rather do.

Then when the pup is say 7 months you can begin formal training of sit and hold. Completely seperate from the fun retrieves.
So the pup has mouth opened to hold, light object put in like hard cardboard inside a wrap or paint roller, and put encouraged to hold for couple seconds, and then release with a command.
After some days of this when pup does hold by itself you then progress if necessary to an ear pinch to get pup to open mouth on command.
The minute pup opens mouth and you put the dummy in the ear pinch stops! The important thing is the pup must have first some idea of what you want, so the ear pinch to get pup to open on command is quickly linked to taking the dummy, otherwise you do nothing but confuse the poor animal. I mean, if you had no idea what might be the reason how would you feel if someone kept pinching your ear or your toes so you yelped? Total confusion compiling upon distress I'd say.

Anyways, once the pup understands to open mouth for the dummy on command you don't need any ear pinch (expect in an adult that refuses to do so). Your retrieve training can progress from here step by step and you set up retrieves that get slowly harder and work to give the dog experience of various situations it may be expected to find in actual hunting where birds don't always end up where you saw them fall.

[Don]

I'm probably going to get beat up , but here's my 2 cents anyway. In my opinion 90% of the time FF is not needed. Many people use it as a cure all, or FF dogs that didn't need it. There is a tremendous amount of pressure on the dog being FF and alot of dogs can't handle it. You'll hear how such and such has FF 5 million dogs and never has had a problem. That's crap. I have seen several dogs absolutly ruined by FF that were good dogs before. On the other hand, I've also seen many dogs that were FF with no problems. Before any dog is FF, it should be evaluated to see if it is mentally strong enough and if FF is even needed. There are alternative methods to teach a dog to fetch, hold and retrieve to hand othe than FF.
I've taken several knocks for my belief that obedience should be a top priority, especially for certain breeds. Some of the same people that have showed their disapproval are big on FF which is obedience at it's max. I don't get it.

some other guy back there, let me look. gonehuntin, said that force fetch is the most misunderstood.......... well I agree with him. The deal with it is it only put's as much pressure on the dog as the dog require's.

I've seen a few mention the gum pinch. I don't like causing any discomfort in the mouth at all. If your gonna make it hurt the mouth what's the point? You want it to take something in it's mouth. Then I never go to a pinch until I have the dog holding the object in it's mouth. To get it there at first, I pull down gently on the jaw and roll the object in, one reason to use a dowel.

Now, if it takes you two month's to force fetch a dog, your playing by his rules, not your's. If you do it in a week, you put on to much pressure. And the only reason to force fetch, other than to fix a problem, is so that if the dog ever refuses you have a way to make it do it. For most of the dog's, the lady is right, it's not necessary. I forced all my dog's because the only time I want them retrieving is when I tell them to. Doesn't the finished dog retrieve only on command? In theory with some!

[Ayres]

There's also a difference between force fetch and play fetch that may be a blurred line. The pressure of force fetch should, generally, not be put on a dog until it's about a year to 15 months old. Play fetch can begin as early as the dog will start picking up toys and other things.

All the BS you hear about having fully broke dogs at 6 months is just that - BS. Don't get caught up in the hype thinking that a dog campaigning events at 6 to 9 months old is the best there is, because that's not necessarily the case.

Remember, you have your dog for its entire life, not just until it reaches a year old. Let it grow up, and enjoy the time you have with it. While your dog is still a pup, evaluate what kinds of things you want to do with it later and then decide on whether you think you'll even need to force fetch or not (at a later date).

[Don]

Ayres,

I already really like you. I have a rather unconventional approach to training. I never could see why anyone wanted to mess up a dog by 9 mos so he could untrain all the wrong things he taught it to be then, at 9 mos and one day, change the rule's. That second year garbage has not been a problem with me and I think it's because I let them be a pup.

A puppy placement and derby placement's are absolutely meaningless if the dog never goes beyond that. Some year's ago a guy I know from Washington cleaned everybody's clock with a hot derby dog. Never knew her to do squat after that. She was a hoot to watch in derby tho.

[original mngsp]

The FF is a great tool and I agree to use as little pressure as needed to get the job done.

I witnessed one of the worst FF sessions ever a couple of years ago. A guy was FFing his dog and when ever the dog refused or spit out the buck, the trainer/owner proceeded to hit the dog in the head with the buck.

Needless to say, he won't be FFing my dogs and I don't want to witnes that type of crap ever again.

[cjs180]

Not all dogs need to be FF. If you are going to do any dog games, you probably should do it. You will always have a reliable retrieve then.

[hubweims]

wow, you really opened the proverbial "can of worms." this is one of the most, if not the most, controversial topics in dog training. see, i think that too many people are too narrow minded about ff. what i mean is that they think ff is a set routine that works the same for every dog. it preset markers with preset routines to achieve an outcome. well, my interpretation of ff, is simply to have dog fetch on command. it doesn't always take the same routine or pressure with every dog. all dogs don't learn the same way. there are many ways to help your dog want to retrieve for you. if you chose to do obedience with your dog, the intermediate level classes have an introduction to ways to work fetch with your dog. however, the most important thing right now for you is not what you teach your pup. see, your pup is young enough that you don't measure what he/she is learning, but measure how quickly the pup seems to pick up on things. see, you are teaching your dog how to learn. that is more important than what you teach right now. so do you want your dog to learn with love and praise to please you, or with fear of being hurt or uncomfortable? the old saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is crap. if you have done the socialization and worked your pup on fun rewarding things, your dog will learn new activities and commands for you its entire life. i don't think you have to worry really about putting any pressure right now. the older you pup gets the more he will want to please you. so, if your dog is obedient now, it only gets better with age. but, the beauty of this forum is that there is all kinds of information and different opinions on here. you really have to find what works for you and your dog. i believe that dogs learn best with POSITIVE reinforcement and conditioned response (pavlov's dog). i want my dogs to please me b/c of love and desire to make me happy, not b/c they fear the wrath of my anger.

[gonehuntin']

Look, I don't want to harm my dog and I apologize for all of my posting on this topic but I am bewildered by the reactions that I've gotten so far (especially from gonehuntin') and I just wanted to be sure that I was being clear about what I am actually doing. If you folks think I need to change course then please let me know.

Thanks for the help!

I'm curious; why would you be bewildered by what I said in my post? Let me know so I can clarify it for you.

[Windyhills]

StuartJeff I think I can understand your confusion---you think you have seen some methods of FF that don't necessarily need what you consider to be harsh treatment and wonder why--given that--it couldn't be applied to a young dog like yours. Particularly since it seems like things are going well.

I first have to wonder though--if you are following Joan Bailey's book (an excellent choice in my opinion) why you are thinking FF with such a young dog? Joan talks about retrieve conditioning with young dogs, but suggests waiting until they are a year or so old before thinking about FF training. Remember Joan's book is geared towards the first year--she doesn't go into specifics of the FF method in it because she doesn't think you should tackle that in the first year.

I'm not that experienced in FF but do think I have picked up a few things that might help.

1) You need something physical--an ear pinch, toe hitch, sometimes those are replaced by an e-collar later on --to force the dog to comply with your commands. Does not matter if the early placing of your hand in it's mouth goes well, or it grabs the dummy when close with no problems initially. You have to have something to fall back on should the dog not comply at any time throughout the whole process. That has to be initiated fairly early in the FF process. You have to be consistent and cannot let the dog get away with not complying.

So...going down the path you are going--what are you going to do if your pup doesn't go and get the dummy? You haven't established anything you can fall back on should that occur.

You asked in your first post if you had not yet reached "the disturbing part"...and no, you have not.

2) Once you start FF training you have to carry it all the way through. Doesn't work to stop mid-stream.

3) The dog to be FF'd has to be mentally capable of handling the pressure you might need to put on it. MIGHT need, mind you. Some dogs may breeze through it without the need to lean on them much if at all. Problem is, you won't know that's the case until you are done. You need to start off with the assumption that you may have to use the physical tools mentioned earlier to get the dog through it. Before you do this, the dog should be familiar with you, and showing that it can comply with commands that might be a bit advanced or require some extra control. E.g. stay on on a whoa or stay command for some time without breaking until the release command. Stay with some temptation in front of the dog. Many people like to see the dog well on it's way to learning how to work birds before beginning FF.

There is potential for creating confusion and anxiety in the dog being FF'd. It has to be mentally capable of handling that or you can do a lot of damage to the dogs ability to carry out other basic commands and needs.

So to sum up what I see from your posts, you don't have the control needed to start established yet, that control can be really tough to establish on a dog that is as young as yours, and since once you start FF you have to carry it all the way through...you should wait until your dog is older before getting into formal FF training.

The conditioning work that Joan recommends is fine, I think--but its not formal FF training. Could be you may find you don't want to FF later, if the dog is doing well without it.

Hope that helps. I think I'm pretty green as far as pointing dog training goes when compared to many others on this board, so hopefully others will step in to correct anything I said they don't agree with.

[AHGSP]

Sounds like you covered it pretty good to me Windy.

Ps. Glad to see you over here, Welcome aboard!

[Windyhills]

Thanks Bruce, good to see you too. Seems like a nice site with some experienced folks on the board.

[stuartjeff]

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. After listening to what all of you had to say I've decided to stop working with the force fetch dummy for a while. Now I'm back to just doing play retrieval as Joan Bailey describes in her book. With that potential crisis averted I'll have to figure out a new way to ruin my dog

Thanks again!

[Don]

I don't believe that retrieving is a natural instinct but rather a bred in trait. In the wild, the only time dog's bring anything back to the nest is when feeding puppy's. What dog's without pup's do is either eat right there or carry it off and eat it. It is that instinct to pick something up and carry it that has been developed over centuries of breeding to service man's need's, not the dog's. I think everyone has seen the pup's that just want to pick something up and run off with it, that's an instinct we circumvent. Left to it's own, the pup may well carry off that bird or wing you threw it and eat it, that's instinct.

Now here's a guess, in the training process, weather you force or play train, your ahead of the game to use as a dummy either a retrieving dummy or a dowel with the ends proped up. The instinct to pick up and chase down, pick up and carry off something that seem's to be getting away draw's the pup. If you hold a pup and throw something for it and let it come to rest, there are pup's that will not go look at it. We get them excited first about chasing the thing the capitalize on their instinct to chase it down and pick it up and carry it off and then the bred in trait of serving man. But if you notice, throw a quail for a puppy the first time outside with no control over the pup, and it will be a race to catch the pup that want's to go off and eat the quail.

The good thing about the force retrieve is that it circumvent's the whole process of the natural instinct, which has not been completely bred out, otherwise the dog would not go to the bird in the first place. No dog that has been forced right from the begining has ever run off with the bird if the force training was properly done.