whistle vs. E-collar for distance recall

[Punchdrunk]

My first post, and while its not really hunting specific many of you have experience with a Brittany so I thought I would ask here.

Short Version:
Should the e-stim be the cue for recall, or should the cue be something else (whistle), and then e-stim be a more general "pay attention" signal. I would rather the latter, because I could then use the stim in more conditions beyond recall, including in the house (Sarah McFarlane DVD is coming with ecollar). However, I would rather a solid recall vs anything else. If he is in thick woods, will he hear the whistle?

Long Version:
We have a 9 month old Brittany that is 99% family pet and 1% hunting dog. We started him with clicker training very young, and he is really great at it. He knows 5 or 6 of 'parlor tricks', with the kids currently working on getting him to 'stick em up' and then shoot him and he plays dead. Stick em up works, but we still have a bit of work with the play dead part. So the clicker has been a great teaching tool. However, so far we have been almost 100% positive reinforcement, with only negative pressure when he does something very wrong like eating furniture. So no negative pressure in training, and I think its time to add that in.

The issue is that beyond the backyard he loses focus and I don't trust him off leash. Any moving bird, leaf, squirrel, lizard and he is full on hunt mode. In the house or yard his recall is good, and he will stay, kennel, down, leave it, fetch somewhat, etc. Elsewhere his recall is pretty good, but not solid enough that I can trust him off leash. He drags a 30ft checkcord, but he is now fast enough that I don't trust even that. I will soon be getting an ecollar, with the primary goal of gaining his attention and maintaining a strong recall from distance. My question is how to use the ecollar for recall, and do you layer in another cue such as a whistle. My 2 primary goals are for him to recall and down. So I could do stim means recall and vibrate means down. I think that would be really clean and easy to learn. But if stim means down and nothing else, I lose the ability to use the stim in more general situations.

Thanks for any advice.

[gonehuntin']

You would never, ever, use an ecollar for recall without a vocal or visual command. That can make a neurotic mess out of a dog. First train him on the lead and cc, then reinforce with the collar and only when a command is issued.

[Dakotazeb]

The e-collar should be used to enforce commands that the dog already knows. In other words, if your dog is trained to come on a verbal and/or whistle command and refuses then stimulation with the e-collar can be used to enforce the command. Sounds like you need to do some recall training with verbal and/or whistle commands.

However, your dog is at that teenager age and is also trying to show his independence. I had a similar problem with my Brittany at that age. She was trained to come on my verbal command and was also trained to come on 2-3 blasts of my whistle. She did very well in a controlled environment but when out in an open field started to ignore my commands. I needed to then use the e-collar to enforce those commands. Only took a couple times of light stimulation and it fixed the problem.

[mnaj_springer]

You would never, ever, use an ecollar for recall without a vocal or visual command. That can make a neurotic mess out of a dog. First train him on the lead and cc, then reinforce with the collar and only when a command is issued.

I'm not trying to argue, and I don't use the following method, but doesn't Maurice Lindley use the e-collar "nick" as a cue for both the recall and "stand" commands?

I think I read it in Training with Mo, but maybe memory is failing me or I misunderstood what I read.

[gonehuntin']

I don't know what Mo does, I've never read his book. It may be that's all he uses the collar for, but seems to me it would confuse heck out of the dog. How would the dog know if he should stand or come? Thing is, my dogs have always been totally trained on the collar. Here, fetch, hold, back, over, whoa, etc. when a collar is used for ALL corrections, commands HAVE to be issued.

[gonehuntin']

I was thinking about that and seems that what Mo may do,is use the flank collar for whoa and neck for here?

[Sharon]

"Whistle vs the e collar for distance recall" quote OP

It isn't a vs situation. You can holler or use a whistle. The e collar reinforces both methods when they are ignored.
....................
I agree - no e collar correction for recall unless you have called the dog to "come" and you can SEE it is ignoring you. I wouldn't use a correction on a dog I can't see either .( Good use for the "locator " feature.)

"I will soon be getting an e collar, with the primary goal of gaining his attention and maintaining a strong recall from distance." quote

Not really the true purpose of the e collar. It is to reinforce commands/behaviours the dog ALREADY KNOWS, but is ignoring.

See part one on the e collar:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=8VyqYl ... ar&f=false

[mnaj_springer]

I was thinking about that and seems that what Mo may do,is use the flank collar for whoa and neck for here?

I don't remember a flank collar ever being mentioned. I'm pretty sure Mo says (or the author) that the dog will figure which command is given according to the situation.

I don't want to muddy the subject for the OP though. In fact, I don't use that method. I use more of a Hickox method for the e-collar.

[Trekmoor]

I think the original poster needs to think about this a bit more before he buys an e-collar. I might be wrong but I have an 'orrible mental image of him "losing" his Brittany in woods or other thick, high cover and then blowing recall or calling the pup and then pressing the button if the pup fails to appear fairly quickly.

If the pup was actually trying to get back to you and the button was pressed you would be physically correcting it for doing as it was commanded to do.
You would be training the pup NOT to come when called .
I'm sure other forum members will tell us if my thinking is wrong about this. I am not an e-collar user so I could be wrong.

Bill T.

[shags]

Train for a verbal and a whistle recall, and use the ecollar for correction only. Verbal is what you will use mostly, unless you plan to have a whistle hanging around your neck all the time in the back yard etc.; the whistle is great for long distances, places and conditions where your voice won't carry well, like high winds.

Bill got it correct - Never use the ecollar when you cannot see what your dog is doing and unless you know he is blowing off a command.

[gonehuntin']

I think the original poster needs to think about this a bit more before he buys an e-collar. I might be wrong but I have an 'orrible mental image of him "losing" his Brittany in woods or other thick, high cover and then blowing recall or calling the pup and then pressing the button if the pup fails to appear fairly quickly.

If the pup was actually trying to get back to you and the button was pressed you would be physically correcting it for doing as it was commanded to do.
You would be training the pup NOT to come when called .
I'm sure other forum members will tell us if my thinking is wrong about this. I am not an e-collar user so I could be wrong.

Bill T.

+1

[cjhills]

Get the George Hickok collar conditioning video. It is simple, easy to understand and use. If you follow it carefully the dog will respond to very light stimulation. Actually some dogs really like playing collar games when they learn that they are in control of the collar. Do not try to buy a e-collar and use it without first learning it's proper use.
While I agree with not stimulating a dog that you can not see sometimes you will have to..................Cj

[RayGubernat]

I guess I am kind of simplistic when it comes to training.

I instill all my commands verbally and with hand signals. I overlay a whistle command for recall which I use only very rarely, but for which I absolutely insist on instant compliance. I enforce failure to comply first with a prong collar and later with an e-collar. I never use an e-collar as a cue.

If I had an e-collar that had a tone feature, I might use that, but I would not use an e-collar stim for a cue.

FWIW, I am not a typical hunter, in that I really do not want to see my dog all the time, or even most of the time. Once every few minutes in cover is just fine. More than that and the dog is not hunting as well or as wide a swath as I would like. Most folks would be quite uncomfortable with their dogs out of sight as much as I actually prefer.

As far as a recall, I only use that when the dog is gone too long and has not checked back in...like it is supposed to. If one of my dogs is gone out of sight for more than about five minutes when I am hunting, I start to become concerned. But, before I issue a recall, I will take a glance at my GPS or tracker unit, to see if the dog is standing somewhere...which is fairly often the reason why the dog has not popped back into view.

Hope this makes some sense to you and helps with your decision.

RayG

PS -

Over the years I have found that the most effective recall (very often) is to say nothing at all and make as little noise as possible. If the dog knows where you are via the noise you are making, verbally, or crashing through cover...it knows exactly where you are and it can, and often will... continue hunting. The dog is in contact with you, even though you may have no clue where the dog is. If you are silent, the dog will lose that contact and very often come back in to re-establish it. Just something to consider.

[Punchdrunk]

Thanks to all for the advice. I 'mostly' understand what each are saying.

I guess the question was could light stim be used as a cue, not a 'correction'. I think the answer is yes, but it would dumb to do so because that would limit its use in other areas.

Please be sure that I am not really talking about hunting, at the moment. We will be practicing in the house, then the yard and then in a large area (baseball field or park) before we ever go to the woods where I cannot see the dog. I spend way more time at baseball fields and parks than the woods these days, and my primary goal is to trust him of leash. Yesterday he was out with my daughter and I on a football field (with long check cord), and did very well. He will come 90% of the time at first call, but if he finds some old half eaten nachos from the Friday game I cannot call him off, and I worry that if a squirrel or other dog came out, that I couldnt call him back from that. So the ecollar I hope will allow a little more control, but of course the first time I use it will not be to get him to stop eating nachos when I am 40 yards away.

We have the George Hickox Great Beginnings DVD, and will be getting the Sarah McFarlane DVD with the ecollar. He has a very good kennel command in the house due to clicker training, so I will probably start collar conditioning with Kennel as in the Hickox video. I was considering starting with recall since that is the most critical command in my mind, but perhaps not after advice from this thread.

Thanks again,

[Spy Car]

@Punchdrunk (the OP),

If you get an e-collar with tone (audible beep) or vibrate it is very easy to train for recall with a pattern on either of these modes. One need not (and IMO) should not use the "stim mode" for recall.

The training for tone/vibrate is the same as training for voice, hand signals, or whistle commands. I happen to use a whistle, but tone/vibrate serves the same purpose. A whistle has the advantage of giving your dog a direction cue (but they almost certainly know where you are in any case), where the e-collar has the advantage of having a way to correct an ignored command from long distance.

As others have said, the e-collar "stim" should be used to reinforce established commands, not in beginning training.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/sd-425-fieldtrainer.html

Bill

[cjhills]

Thanks to all for the advice. I 'mostly' understand what each are saying.

I guess the question was could light stim be used as a cue, not a 'correction'. I think the answer is yes, but it would dumb to do so because that would limit its use in other areas.

Please be sure that I am not really talking about hunting, at the moment. We will be practicing in the house, then the yard and then in a large area (baseball field or park) before we ever go to the woods where I cannot see the dog. I spend way more time at baseball fields and parks than the woods these days, and my primary goal is to trust him of leash. Yesterday he was out with my daughter and I on a football field (with long check cord), and did very well. He will come 90% of the time at first call, but if he finds some old half eaten nachos from the Friday game I cannot call him off, and I worry that if a squirrel or other dog came out, that I couldnt call him back from that. So the ecollar I hope will allow a little more control, but of course the first time I use it will not be to get him to stop eating nachos when I am 40 yards away.

We have the George Hickox Great Beginnings DVD, and will be getting the Sarah McFarlane DVD with the ecollar. He has a very good kennel command in the house due to clicker training, so I will probably start collar conditioning with Kennel as in the Hickox video. I was considering starting with recall since that is the most critical command in my mind, but perhaps not after advice from this thread.

Thanks again,

Some dogs get a bit sticky if you start conditioning with recall. That said, many training programs do it successfully.....Cj

[Mumpy]

@Punchdrunk (the OP),

If you get an e-collar with tone (audible beep) or vibrate it is very easy to train for recall with a pattern on either of these modes. One need not (and IMO) should not use the "stim mode" for recall.

The training for tone/vibrate is the same as training for voice, hand signals, or whistle commands. I happen to use a whistle, but tone/vibrate serves the same purpose. A whistle has the advantage of giving your dog a direction cue (but they almost certainly know where you are in any case), where the e-collar has the advantage of having a way to correct an ignored command from long distance.

As others have said, the e-collar "stim" should be used to reinforce established commands, not in beginning training.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/sd-425-fieldtrainer.html

Bill

I have the collar that has these functions (Tone and Vibrate) and I have trained my dog to come on Tone, but you shouldn't use Vibrate for a recall either. The Vibrate function disturbs a dog as much as the conditioned level if not more.

[Spy Car]

@Punchdrunk (the OP),

If you get an e-collar with tone (audible beep) or vibrate it is very easy to train for recall with a pattern on either of these modes. One need not (and IMO) should not use the "stim mode" for recall.

The training for tone/vibrate is the same as training for voice, hand signals, or whistle commands. I happen to use a whistle, but tone/vibrate serves the same purpose. A whistle has the advantage of giving your dog a direction cue (but they almost certainly know where you are in any case), where the e-collar has the advantage of having a way to correct an ignored command from long distance.

As others have said, the e-collar "stim" should be used to reinforce established commands, not in beginning training.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/sd-425-fieldtrainer.html

Bill

I have the collar that has these functions (Tone and Vibrate) and I have trained my dog to come on Tone, but you shouldn't use Vibrate for a recall either. The Vibrate function disturbs a dog as much as the conditioned level if not more.

I would ordinarily choose "tone" over "vibrate", but I've helped several people who have deaf dogs get very successful recalls with "vibrate" with no ill effects. I know another dog (with normal hearing) that does better with vibrate than "tone." so I don't think this is a hard-and-fast rule. The vibrate mode is not punitive, but all-things-being-equal I'd use tone with a dog with normal hearing.

Bill

[Punchdrunk]

The incoming collar will have tone and vibrate . I like the idea of using tone as a distinct recall command. So I assume in that system I would collar condition to estim as with hickox video (using kennel), and then progress to other commands. Somewhat separately, I would then start pairing the recall command (we use 'come') with the collar tone just as I would with a whistle, until he starts to recall with just the tone. Then expand farther and farther away.

If vibrate doesnt freak him out then I could also pair vibrate with 'down'. In other words, he would learn that laying down turns off the vibrate. That would put the two commands I most want (come and down) as unique cues on the collar. estim could be used to reinforce either, as well as other commands.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Sharon]

You sound like you know what your are talking about.
Personally , I like it simple ... a holler , dog doesn't come and I can see he is ignoring me = a collar nick. Maybe I'm just too dull to think about , "Is it a tone I need, or a vibrate or a whistle or a correction or ......

[gonehuntin']

I think training a dog on tone shows great merit and in fact I've done it. It carries farther thannthe whistle and is silent around spooky birds. Vibration is another matter. I find it totally lacking in merit and in fact I view it as unsound training and a detriment to training.

If you're going to correct a dog in training, CORRECT IT, don't nag it, don't give it a second chance. Command him, correct him, get on with life. A vibration is a nag and a warning. Warn a dog instead of correcting him once, you'll end up warning him every time.

[Spy Car]

The incoming collar will have tone and vibrate . I like the idea of using tone as a distinct recall command. So I assume in that system I would collar condition to estim as with hickox video (using kennel), and then progress to other commands. Somewhat separately, I would then start pairing the recall command (we use 'come') with the collar tone just as I would with a whistle, until he starts to recall with just the tone. Then expand farther and farther away.

If vibrate doesnt freak him out then I could also pair vibrate with 'down'. In other words, he would learn that laying down turns off the vibrate. That would put the two commands I most want (come and down) as unique cues on the collar. estim could be used to reinforce either, as well as other commands.

Thanks again for the advice.

The only caveat I'd have is if the "come" command is polluted (by casual use and inconstant follow through) you might want to pick another command word that you train for 100% results.

Bill

[Spy Car]

I think training a dog on tone shows great merit and in fact I've done it. It carries farther thannthe whistle and is silent around spooky birds. Vibration is another matter. I find it totally lacking in merit and in fact I view it as unsound training and a detriment to training.

If you're going to correct a dog in training, CORRECT IT, don't nag it, don't give it a second chance. Command him, correct him, get on with life. A vibration is a nag and a warning. Warn a dog instead of correcting him once, you'll end up warning him every time.

Scratching my head why you'd think "vibrate" is unsound. Care to explain why? I can't see that "vibrate" is a "nag" or a "warning," it is simply a signal that can be conditioned to mean "recall." It is no different than an auditory "beep" in that regard. Either can be trained for to mean "come."

Bill

[gonehuntin']

Scratching my head why you'd think "vibrate" is unsound. Care to explain why? I can't see that "vibrate" is a "nag" or a "warning," it is simply a signal that can be conditioned to mean "recall." It is no different than an auditory "beep" in that regard. Either can be trained for to mean "come."

Bill

The beep is auditory exactly like your voice or whistle once the transference is made. If the dog doesn't immediately come, the tone is issued again with an electrical correction.

The dog reacts to the vibration differently since the vibration is a sensory perception and closely simulates a low level electrical shock. A command denial us then followed by electrical stimulation. When the dog is initially stimulated with vibration, he becomes unsure because he has just been corrected with no auditory cue and no chance to comply with the cue before the correction.

If it works for you guys, do it. But I never would.

[Spy Car]

Scratching my head why you'd think "vibrate" is unsound. Care to explain why? I can't see that "vibrate" is a "nag" or a "warning," it is simply a signal that can be conditioned to mean "recall." It is no different than an auditory "beep" in that regard. Either can be trained for to mean "come."

Bill

The beep is auditory exactly like your voice or whistle once the transference is made. If the dog doesn't immediately come, the tone is issued again with an electrical correction.

The dog reacts to the vibration differently since the vibration is a sensory perception and closely simulates a low level electrical shock. A command denial us then followed by electrical stimulation. When the dog is initially stimulated with vibration, he becomes unsure because he has just been corrected with no auditory cue and no chance to comply with the cue before the correction.

If it works for you guys, do it. But I never would.

I don't believe a vibration closely simulates a low level electric shock. As I said, I'd use tone with a non-hearing impared dog in usual circumstances, but deaf dogs I've helped train have done marvelously well on vibrate and have not been confused at the difference between vibrate and stim. And some dogs do better with a sensory cue.

Whatever works.

Bill

[Punchdrunk]

Thought I would update with my progress, for what its worth......

Pup is now 11 months and has done great with the ecollar over the last 4 weeks. The initial training setting was very low, and using "kennel" I think he conditioned to the ecollar very quickly and easily. Then I moved to recall, which also went smoothly as long as there are no distractions. I basically try to only call him when I am sure he will recall, and then slowly add distractions. But that is sometimes easier said than done. Not other commands are being enforced with the ecollar at the moment. To be honest I am probably to easy on him, thinking that I am much more likely to mess him up by overtraining than undertraining.

I will also say that the tone feature has worked very well. He now knows that tone means to head back toward me, and I can usually turn him with just tone, which is great considering that its a 3/4 mile radius on the collar. The way it currently works is that tone means turn toward me, and if he doesn't I give him low level stimulation and turn it up the intensity until he responds (always when I can see him). He turns probably 65% of the time with the tone, and 90% once the estim starts. I also like this approach because I am not making a sound but he is responding to me. Something nice about working the dog silently.

I will say that the vibrate scares him when it goes off, so I haven't tried to to train to it. In fact, when he is ignoring low level stim I can hit the vibrate and he usually freezes, and then I can go back to tone alone and he recalls. So now the question is whether to include a whistle, or just leave it to ecollar tone and my voice. Again, Its my nature to be not really like yelling or blowing a whistle, an I have noticed that lots of people use a whistle, and so how does he know which whistle to listen to. The only issue there is that I have learned that hunt tests, etc do not allow ecollars, although I am not sure if we would ever be serious about those.

Speaking of hunt tests, we watched one this weekend and then ran him in the fields afterward. Interestingly, when we planted birds and walked him up on them, he pointed really well. 6 points total on 4 birds, with two relocating so that we could walk him to them again. However, when we just ran in the field, he never found a single "wild-bird", although I am sure there were some there left-over from the hunt test. Considering that was his first exposure to birds, I am happy. He just needs experience.

Sorry for the long post.
Photo included:

Point.jpg

[shags]

You can use both a verbal and a whistle command for recall. Decide on a particular whistle blast...two toots, three toots, two short blast, whatever you like. Use that as your command, just like you use the word "Here" or "Come". Then overlay the verbal and whistle command. Whistles come in handy in conditions where your voice doesn't carry well, as in great distance or high winds.
After you know the dog understands the whistle, use the collar to correct if he ignores your command, just as you would for a verbal
Easy-peasy!

[deseeker]

Nice looking britt

[Mumpy]

@Punchdrunk (the OP),

If you get an e-collar with tone (audible beep) or vibrate it is very easy to train for recall with a pattern on either of these modes. One need not (and IMO) should not use the "stim mode" for recall.

The training for tone/vibrate is the same as training for voice, hand signals, or whistle commands. I happen to use a whistle, but tone/vibrate serves the same purpose. A whistle has the advantage of giving your dog a direction cue (but they almost certainly know where you are in any case), where the e-collar has the advantage of having a way to correct an ignored command from long distance.

As others have said, the e-collar "stim" should be used to reinforce established commands, not in beginning training.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/sd-425-fieldtrainer.html

Bill

This is what I did and LOVE it.

I also purchased an Acme Silent Dog whistle and that works like a charm as well

Love hunting without making much noise.