proofing training

[dottie]

Suggestions or comments please....it is very hard for a novice to know/understand if he is doing things right(if training is progressive as it should) I really have no benchmarks with which to judge.

My Brittany is learning to retrieve. I did not ff. He is 100% on retrieves (on land) and with limited distractions. However I am not sure what distractions to try. Today in the house I attempted to proof his retrieve by leaving a piece of chicken in his return path (is this even fair or wise)?????  
He will also fetch the paper and a beer from the refrigerator.
I would like to teach him to pick up his own toys and return them to his toy box. ( had a ESS that would return toys....and never messed up her retrieving, but every dog is different. I would also like to work with him on finding and retrieving the tv remote,my keys.ect.

Question:

How and when do I know..... IF ......I can relax the formal nature of my retrieve training?

How do I proof his retrieving.

[EvanG]

Suggestions or comments please....it is very hard for a novice to know/understand if he is doing things right(if training is progressive as it should) I really have no benchmarks with which to judge.

My Brittany is learning to retrieve. I did not ff. He is 100% on retrieves (on land) and with limited distractions. However I am not sure what distractions to try. Today in the house I attempted to proof his retrieve by leaving a piece of chicken in his return path (is this even fair or wise)?????  
He will also fetch the paper and a beer from the refrigerator.
I would like to teach him to pick up his own toys and return them to his toy box. ( had a ESS that would return toys....and never messed up her retrieving, but every dog is different. I would also like to work with him on finding and retrieving the tv remote,my keys.ect.

Question:


How and when do I know..... IF ......I can relax the formal nature of my retrieve training?

How do I proof his retrieving.

I'll answer the last question first because it appears that you don't fundamentally understand the formal aspects of retrieving. Unless your dog is fully FF'd his retrieves won't reach a level at which you could rightly call them formal. So whatever it is that you're doing, even if it's as unrealistic as requiring the dog to negotiate real birds en route, is not formal. He doesn't have the skill for that yet. A formal retrieve is a trained retrieve. Chasing after motion and being enticed back to you is not retrieving, it's puppy fetching. There are many steps in building the trained retrieve. It starts with puppy fetching to fan the flames of the dog's natural desire. The rest assembles fundamental obedience with all the steps of the trained retrieve.

All these retrieves are formally trained. The dog saw nothing fall, and so he retrieves because he was commanded to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtcjIwmDkSo

This is just one small example of the principle. There is excellent coursework available for this skill, called force fetch. If you're interested let me know.

EvanG

[Nutmeg247]

To be sure I understand, this is a bird dog but you simply want to proof a generalized, almost service-dog-like retrieve for other objects as well? I've found Donna Hill's youtube videos to be good in terms of "shaped" retrieves, including proofing, and she even has a video on the basics of training a hotdog retrieve. Sorry but I can't include links at the moment. But, she is not at all focused on hunting. What are the distractions you're most worried about at the moment?

[Irishwhistler]

Dottie,
Evan G is a noted authority on the subject of the formalized retrieve, follow his advice and you won't be disappointed nor misguided. You cannot "proof" a retrieve that is only in it's initial stages and has not yet been formalized. Good luck.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler

[mnaj_springer]

Thanks for the video Evan! Having just "completed" FF I will be movin on to more sophisticated retrieves so this was a helpful video.

[Nutmeg247]

Dottie,
Evan G is a noted authority on the subject of the formalized retrieve, follow his advice and you won't be disappointed nor misguided. You cannot "proof" a retrieve that is only in it's initial stages and has not yet been formalized. Good luck.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler

I think there are possible differences in usage of "proof" going on here. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2279 In the context of clicker-type training, proofing is a process of gradually increasing distractions, etc.

I appreciate that in particular as regards retriever trials, people relying solely on "positive" training that is often called clicker training (though many other trainers use clickers or similar sounds) have struggled. But, if someone chooses not to force fetch and is happy enough with the way their dog is retrieving, and simply wants to have their dog a bit more resistant to distraction, there is a "proofing" process that trainers use in that context.

Full disclosure: I haven't force-fetched my own dog, I am not an experienced trainer, and I am not saying that FF is not desirable. The main reason I didn't FF my dog (a pointer) is that I didn't want to screw it up, and at this point he's retrieving "well enough" for me as an upland foot hunter in a very dry state. (He has refused a couple bumper retrieves over water when wind kicked waves up, which is why I mention the lack of water here in southern NV and sourrounding areas.) I'm also probably a little lazy. So I have a lot of biases.

[birddogger]

If he will fetch me a beer from the fridg, that is all I really need. Tongue in cheek of course! Good advise above and sounds like you have a nice dog!

Charlie