Questions!

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:43 pm

Hi.....

I'm new here and I have quite a few questions for you that I'm hoping you can help me with.

I am an Obedience Trainer and Behaviorist located in Michigan....I have new clients that have a GSP - 6 months old - that the husband hopes to someday use in the field.

When I get clients in that have a goal of using their dogs eventually in the field, I adjust my basic course to fit those needs. For instance, I wouldn't teach this GSP to sit when the handler stops walking. I also adjust commands to fit the eventual purpose.

My clients asked me last week what I thought about their dog going back to the breeder (who I guess also happens to be a trainer?) for an intense few weeks of training to get him ready for the field. The clients are not involved in the training at all - just drop the dog off and pick him up in a few weeks. Maybe an hour or two of instruction when they come back for the dog. And I'm pretty sure this is suppose to happen sometime soon...before the dog is a year old.

They also informed the breeder/trainer that they had enrolled in Basic Obedience classes with me.....the guys simply said, "That's great". Didn't ask about me, whether I knew what I was doing for field dogs or not...nothing.

I guess my question to you is this: Is this normal? Is it normal to take the dog back to the breeder for "intense training" lasting a couple of weeks? Can that really accomplish anything? Will the dog respond to the owner? Will the dog be confused? Wouldn't it take the dog a few days or even a week to become "settled" in his new surroundings and new routine and then the "intense training" would only be a week or so?

I've viewed the breeders website and it doesn't offer much....in the training section, it tells nothing of what he puts the dogs through.

I'm very curious and I'm hoping someone here can guide me so I can guide my clients.

Thanks for your help!

EWSIV · Post by **EWSIV** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:48 pm

I imagine at six months all he is going to do is put birds in front of the dog and get him pointing confidently. There probably will be nothing intense about the training. The owners don't seem to know a great deal. In my worthless opinion, too much obedience is a bad thing for a young pointing dog.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:56 pm

Well, you are right about that. The owners were VERY confused about the simple basics of just raising a puppy when they came to me. (They've only had their first night of class...tonight is Week 2) Typical puppy issues.

The husband is a hunter....goes with his buddies every now and then, and never had a dog at his side helping him. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of his friends take a dog.

Do you think basic obedience training is too much?

In your opinion, at 6 months old, what exactly should this dog be learning for his field work?

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:05 pm

also in my more worthless opion......OB cant be that bad, a person just has to be careful what the dog is taught and how it is taught and know what the big picture is. When I go out of town my wife has to take care of Rowdy, the dog is stronger then she is and she could not handle him at all. I hired an OB trainer to come to the house a few times and helped her. I sat there and told him what I wanted and why i wanted it (things like stay away from sit). He helped my wife understand how to handle the dog and now she can walk him (that is a huge step) and put him up in the kennel at night.

If OB is done right and your main goals are kept in mind it can help. This trainer used the ecollar, one time he was over and the dog was about to get zapped, but he had something in his mouth, I stopped the trainer and said "hold on, lets get that out of his mouth before we start with the collar". Dude was cool with it.....he was helpfull.

Nothing like being out of town on business and hearing about how worthless your dog is on the phone for 45 minutes

I guess this is a little off topic....sorry....I am done and will not bother you agian

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:07 pm

Hahahahahaha! I totally understand that!

This dog DOES need basic obedience...the wife is all of 100lbs. And just like your situation, she can't handle the dog at all.

As I said, I adjust my basic classes for dogs that I know are heading into field work...I've never had any issues yet. Or none that have been brought to my attention.

I'm just curious about what their breeder wants to do....

smilinicon · Post by **smilinicon** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:07 pm

hello. I wish you the best of luck.

It might be a good idea to talk to the owner about the first hunting outings with the dog. It sounds as though he may be used to line hunting with a group of friends and that might be a lot of guns for a new dog.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:17 pm

Where are you located?? Just wondering. I agree the trainer is probably going to get the dog on birds and that is about it. At 6 months if the dog has not been on birds it needs to be put on them sooner than later. One thing people are afraid of with OB is that the dog will get dependant on them and not be independant. You need an independant dog so the dog will go do it's thing.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:37 pm

You're right. I know how to teach a dog Obedience and then drill "independence" into them. My female is an Obedience girl and also a disaster dog. She knows the difference of when it's time to look to me for cues (in the ring or in general life) and when it's time to think for herself.

So what do you think he means by "intense training"? And is this a good thing? Sending the dog off for a few weeks? Would YOU do it with YOUR dog?

Don't get me wrong...I've heard many times of dogs being sent off for training - even obedience training - but I'm just not sure that I agree with the whole premise. And since this isn't my area of expertise, I joined here looking for answers!

And I'm appreciating all the responses!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:39 pm

"Intensive Training" can mean different things for different trainers. I suspect in this case, all he's going to do is expose the dogs to a ton of birds, give her some basic "whoa" work, and send the dog home. He really couldn't do much else in a few weeks. I'm a little different than some of the other guys. I have a Draht and teach them full obedience including sit and down since she hunts from a duck blind as well as upland. I have never seen that in ANY way does this restrict the dogs initiative or make it dependent on me. It does create handler awareness which I sure as heck want, no, DEMAND in a hunting dog. There is a definite difference in obedience for a hunting dog versus obedience of a family dog. One would be that many obedience trainers teach a dog to sit it front facing them when called in. A hunting dog comes directly to heel, stays in FRONT of the handler, doesn't walk behind, and promptly heels and sits. Just one of the differences.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:42 pm

Wait. I think you just taught me something! When you say "stays in front of the handler", do you mean while heeling????

I have classes starting in a few minutes...I'll be checking back in later!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:57 pm

I can't comment on the last post since I'm not sure I understand it either. As for your question about intense training, I doubt that the training will be that intense, but if it is, I agree you can't do it in a week and that is all the time he would really have. It is my guess that the term is being used to impress the customer and hopefully what he will do is expose the pup to birds for an hour or so every day. That in my mind isn't intense but maybe my definition or the word is different than his.

I agree with everything you said. Two weeks is too short to accomplish much. The pup is too young for anything intense. And his and your training will be wasted if the owners don't get trained and take part also.

JMO
Ezzy

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:16 pm

You are asking some very intelligent questions and I like the fact that you have thought about what kind of obedience training to give to a pointing dog intended to be worked in the field.

In pointing dog training circles, we have lots of animated debates among ourselves about whether obedience should be done with a dog at a young age.

The method that I personally follow is not to do much obedience training with a young pointing breed pup destined for the field. Rather, we put them in the field and expose them to birds, expecting that the young pup will learn to hunt for birds and get excited about them. Some people refer to this as "bolding the pup up" we want it to be really interested in birds, and to learn to hunt them independently of the handler.

At a later stage, around one year of age, we then apply some obedience training. Not heel, sit and stay, but most of us teach "whoa" - a command that means in effect "stop where you are, stand and stay, do not move a foot." We then increase the distractions and difficulty level to eventually teach a dog to be staunch, that is, it will find birds, point them, and stand in place for fifteen minutes or so while we find the dog and flush the bird. Some people allow the dog to go at the flush of the bird, some people like to make the dog steady to wing and shot, meaning the dog does not move on the flush of the bird, the shot, or the fall, and does not go to retrieve the bird until commanded to do so by the handler. In my view, this is a matter of choice if the object is just to have the dog for hunting. Some people think it works better if the dog breaks at the flush, it is then out there when the bird is dropped and is in a better position to chase down running cripples. Others think this raises safety issues. In most types of pointing dog competition, the dog must be fully steady to wing and shot, which we call by the short term "broke," that is, we say the dog is "fully broke" or we say it is a "broke dog."

It is at this point that we may teach a dog to also heel, that is sometimes useful for hunting.

My one personal exception to not doing early obedience is that I will train a recall command (come or here) at an early age. This is because even when they are young dogs, you have to be able to get them back to the car when they have been out running after birds.

The reason many of us do it this way is that we do not want a dog that is dependent on the handler. The job of the dog is to find birds that we would not otherwise find. We do not want the dog to be following commands or cues from the handler to figure out where to go to find a bird, or to be a "velcro dog" in the field. We want it to know from its own experience where and how to go.

But there are also compromises in life. If you train a dog the way I have described, it might be quite a handful when it is a year or two years old. Some people just can't accept that, don't know what to do about it, can't tolerate it, get nervous or anxious. I can, I know how the process works from beginning to end, and I know how to wind up with a finished product at age three or four that suits me.

But it sounds as though your clients would be the nervous type around a big running dog. If that is the case, then some early basic obedience would be good. Just bear in mind that heel should not be so drilled into the dog that it will not leave the handler's side when in the field. Such a dog is not of any use to anyone as a hunter.

The first pointing breed dog I successfully trained myself, I took to obedience classes when he was six months old. I had to fight with some of the trainers, who wanted the dog to sit as the default whenever the handler stopped. I simply trained that dog to whoa, that is, to stand instead of to sit when I stopped. It worked out. But at the same time, I was taking that young pup out into the field three or four evenings a week and putting it on lots of wild birds. It all worked out ok. With more experience, I just don't do the obedience at all at a young age, except for "come".

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:21 pm

Goldie, I am an X Obedience person, now birddog trainer. I don't see a problem with teaching the pup a little one on one with her owner. (probably for the owner more than the dog). I pesonally don't like to do much in the way of heel or sit until the dog knows how to hunt and is pointing. At 6 mo I get pups in for starting. Only obedience is Come. I put them on birds, get them conditioned to a gun, and if they need collar conditioning I do that. I will send them home to grow up until they come back for formal training at around a yr old. I like birddog pups to be bold and independent and sometimes overdoing obedience can put too much dependence on the pup.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:00 pm

Wow!

Thank you sooo much!

As stated, I am an "obedience" instructor....I train family pets, dogs moving into obedience or agility competitions, agility dogs, scent discrimination (which is used in obedience trials), working therapy and disaster dogs, and so on....but my education also backs me up in hunt/field trials, although I don't participate or do the advanced training needed for it.

I do, however, make sure that I know my clients intentions with their dog as they begin Basic Obedience. If you are training for a well behaved family pet, I don't need a perfectly straight sit or your dog to arrive in a perfectly straight front on the recall....if you are training for eventual obedience trials, your butt better hit the floor the moment I stop walking and you better be in a straight sit! Your recall better be quick and you better be able to finish to heel position!

At the same time, when I take a dog into basic, if the owner is looking for a hunting companion (whether retriever, pointer, etc), I adjust my basic course accordingly. For example...when heeling, the owner slows down to a stop while starting to teach WHOA.....the dog isn't expected to sit. However, most people want a great hunting dog but also a dog that behaves at home around family and guests - so the dog has to know the SIT command.....but he is taught only to SIT when commanded to do so. (Am I making any sense???) The dog is taught to recall to a command and also a whistle. Things like that.

I posed all of this to my clients tonight and I got a little more information.....I misunderstood....the guy is NOT a hunter but thought because he had a GSP that he might get into hunting. Some of his buddies hunt. We talked....and what he finally admitted was that he could care less about hunting and what he'd really like is a very obedient dog - one that he can take up north, let loose in a field and the dog will have fun, "romp and play" but listen when commanded.

Okay....so this is a HUGE difference from getting your dog ready for field training!

I sent them home loaded with information for both sides....field training or no field training....and also the possibility of obedience titles and they are going to discuss it throughout the week and let me know for sure which way they want to go next week at class. But the husband is already leaning to not field training. And I think the wife is more than thrilled with that because it will mean strict obedience training for a very active Pointer puppy that may lead her to actually being able to control the dog!

Seriously....I can't thank you enough for all the quick words of wisdom you came at me with! I just joined...this was my first post and you were all very gracious to me! I hope you don't mind if I continue my membership here and get to know some of you....I can always use to further my education!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:36 pm

I'm sorry; I was in a hurry when I wrote about sitting in front. Some obedience classes I have seen teach to call a dog to heel, and first stop and sit in front of the handler facing the handler. Then to finish the heel, the dog walks to the handlers right side, then behind him, and sits on the left. That's a real no-no with a hunting dog because if they're going to spit the bird out, they do it when behing you and out of sight. A hunting dog is trained to come directly to the handlers left side, turn facing ahead, and sit. I've never been able to understand the rationale behind either of the above two methods, sitting to deliver in front of the handler, and walking around him to heel.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:02 pm

This has been a nice interesting thread.
GoldenGirl, I hope you stay with us and share your knowledge also

I would just note, that it is my understanding, that field people that would caution against the SIT command, are more usually cautioning *when* it is taught. That is they would teach it *after* WHOA is taught and pointing is consitantly at the level they want, rather than first as is usually done in obedience (well, after COME/HERE). Some never train it, if it's not needed. A well trained whoa is almost as good because wiggling, whining, dancing jumping etc. are all big no-no's on a well trained whoa.

As mentioned though, lots of versitile dogs like the GSP are trained SIT and WHOA and HEEL

It sounds like you have an obedience dog after all, but if it comes up again...

FYI - You might check out the training methods done in NAVHDA (North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association) or in the German training programs for the VDD or DK

Good luck, at any rate.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:57 pm

Gone hunting, I guess I am confused but if the dog comes to you and sits or whatever in front of you is that not when you take the bird from it? And if you do he won't have the bird when he finishes by walking around you. At least that would be the way I would see it. So if you really want the dog to finish in the heel position it shouldnt make a bit of difference since he has already delivered the bird to you.

Where am I going wrong?

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:52 am

ezzy333 wrote:Gone hunting, I guess I am confused but if the dog comes to you and sits or whatever in front of you is that not when you take the bird from it? And if you do he won't have the bird when he finishes by walking around you. At least that would be the way I would see it. So if you really want the dog to finish in the heel position it shouldnt make a bit of difference since he has already delivered the bird to you.

Where am I going wrong?

Ezzy

Some do, some don't. Some teach the dog to sit, take the bird, they the dog heels behind. Others, and I can't tell you why other than it is a carry through of this method, have the dog sit when he comes in, then heel still carrying the bird. The disadvantage to both or either of these methods is that when the dog comes into you, he is looking BEHIND you and not in FRONT of you when he sits. A well trained hunting dog comes in, spins and sits at heel, always watching the area to the front of the handler where "the action is". Mind you, I'm not saying all obedience trainers train this way, but quite a few do. It's very common to see a dog come in and sit in front of a handler, facing the handler.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:57 am

I can't answer that question, Ezzy....why a recalled hunting dog comes directly back to heel position....but ALL obedience classes should be teaching the recall straight in to the front of you.....the dog should sit directly in front of you and wait for your next cue....which MIGHT be to finish (meaning to walk around behind you and return to heel position) or you might direct the dog into something else.

In an obedience trial, after the recall and while the dog is sitting directly in front of you, the judge will always tell you "finish your dog".

I think this couple was just kind of confused. I think they sorta thought that "since they had a GSP, they should take up hunting". The guy has a few buddies that hunt but he's never been involvewd...and his version of a "field dog" is one that can be let off leash to have a good time - maybe point a few birds - and then return when commanded.

Gus is a great dog! He's a typical puppy at 6 months old, but he has great focus and catches on quickly to anything that I was asking of him last night.

Who knows what they will decide....but they did give me Gus's folder and I plan on looking into his pedigree and the breeder over the weekend. Just upon glancing at it, there are quite a few obedience titles there!

Thanks for inviting me to stay on!!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:17 am

People don't have to "take up hunting" because they have a GSP. But my belief is that they will have a deeper appreciation for what their dog was bred for if they allow the dog to pursue the field. That is what lost me in Obed, I was deep into it, UD's, OTCH, bla bla, until I saw what these gus could do in the field and how much happier they were doing what was bred into them and not scent discriminating articles:) Nothing wrong with pursueing what you want to do with your dog, it is just serving them more justice to allow them the field training. There are plenty of avenues to follow in the field, and I think when most people see their pup lock up on their first bird, they are hooked................... I was.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:31 am

I totally agree with you.......

I also think it's kinda backwards to get a specific breed of dog that was bred for a specific job, with your intent being to "maybe take up hunting". But there isn't a whole lot I can do about a human's way of thinking. They are the most difficult aspect of my job!

However, for someone as confused as this client seemed to be, all I can really do is to A: explain what his breed is capable of, B: get an understanding of his lifestyle and what his interests are and what he's really looking for with the dog, and then offer all the opportunities available to him under training and C: guide him down whichever path he chooses.

A good point is what happened with this client.....he thought he might like to "maybe" take up hunting but has never had an interest in it until getting his GSP.....after much discussion I learn that he really isn't even interested in hunting. If he would have continued down that path of training for field work, the dog would have suffered because the human wouldn't have been giving 100% because it wasn't "his style".

It will be interesting for me to see which way he chooses...but whichever way he does choose, I will be giving my all to that dog.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:45 am

I would just note, that it is my understanding, that field people that would caution against the SIT command, are more usually cautioning *when* it is taught. That is they would teach it *after* WHOA is taught and pointing is consitantly at the level they want, rather than first as is usually done in obedience (well, after COME/HERE). Some never train it, if it's not needed. A well trained whoa is almost as good because wiggling, whining, dancing jumping etc. are all big no-no's on a well trained whoa.

As mentioned though, lots of versatile dogs like the GSP are trained SIT and WHOA and HEEL

Dead on right mountaindog. Take a look at Bob Wehle's now old Wing & Shot sometime, the general prescription for training a "gentleman's hunting dog." He talks of sit and heel as being commands that a good gentleman's hunting dog needs to know, but they are taught after the dog has its pointer training, Wehle said it should be done after they are broke. This was the generally recognized "old way" of doing it, and it is still good advice in my opinion.

I personally will start with heel during the obedience work that is part of the breaking process, because heel is a good way to start a training session off, it is a good way if done properly to get the dog to pay attention to you. I personally do not teach sit, I have no use for it in the field or at home. Others may. I would not teach it before the dog is broke, because with some dogs it will muck up the breaking process and make you back track to fix problems with the dog sitting on point or on whoa.

As for how a dog should bring a bird in to the handler, that is in my view a matter of the handler's choice. My dogs are trained to come in to heel at my left side. I do not have them come in on the right and circle around behind to heel on the left like you see in obedience, I just have them come in to the left and turn around at my side to face forward. It just becomes natural for them to deliver a bird that way. But when it comes right down to it, when I am hunting with them the objective is to put the bird in the bag, so if they come in and stop facing me, or if they come in doing a walking handstand on their front legs, or if they come in jump on my chest and put the bird in my face, or if they put it on a platter and do a waiter's walk to deliver it, I am going to take the bird and say thank you for a job well done. I don't much care how they get it there, just that they do.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:10 am

Wagonmaster wrote: But when it comes right down to it, when I am hunting with them the objective is to put the bird in the bag, so if they come in and stop facing me, or if they come in doing a walking handstand on their front legs, or if they come in jump on my chest and put the bird in my face, or if they put it on a platter and do a waiter's walk to deliver it, I am going to take the bird and say thank you for a job well done. I don't much care how they get it there, just that they do.

True

though if I could train my dog to bring it on a platter doing a handstand, I'd have a better chance of funding the hunting trips.

FWIW - my lab comes straight to heel. This is not something I thought out, but in retrospect, it offers more of a chance for error on her part (more chance to drop it while she's turning, but she never does. It DOES have her facing forward immediatly for her next mark, which might come at any time while duck or dove hunting. My GSP, on the otherhand, comes to front, which again I never though out - it just works well, and gets the bird to me ASAP so he can get back to work finding more birds....

I did train the lab to return to heel, but just because the book(s) I was using did so, and she was the first lab I had trained. ( I give a hand signal as she returns to tell her which side, in case I am working 2 dogs...) The GSP, I just let him do what he wanted really as long as the bird is in my hand, and that's what it worked out to be. Brenda finished up his FF for us so maybe she got that started, though now he usually sits, which I didn't teach at all. It works, out well though, BUT I do agree GET the bird is the goal!!! However is best for you're needs.

My GSP Katie, pitches the bird back from about 5 feet away, it usually nearly smacks your legs. This is cheating on her part and she knows it, but she does it to get back to hunting quicker, and well, the birds is back, albeit NOT to hand, but :roll:

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:23 am

snips wrote:People don't have to "take up hunting" because they have a GSP. But my belief is that they will have a deeper appreciation for what their dog was bred for if they allow the dog to pursue the field. That is what lost me in Obed, I was deep into it, UD's, OTCH, bla bla, until I saw what these gus could do in the field and how much happier they were doing what was bred into them and not scent discriminating articles:) Nothing wrong with pursueing what you want to do with your dog, it is just serving them more justice to allow them the field training. There are plenty of avenues to follow in the field, and I think when most people see their pup lock up on their first bird, they are hooked................... I was.

Totally agree! You can not understand the true innate obsession that is there until you see it. When you do, it's hard to imagine giving them life without that thrill. Watching them lock up on a point is THRILLING. Gives me chills still. It's way more than a fun game, to them. It's what they were bred for, what they crave. My husband and I had never really hunted birds until we got Katie, and now look where it's bought us. We owe her alot and the least we can do for her is give her her passion

I would hate to think what we would have missed if we had not wanted her to hunt...

EWSIV · Post by **EWSIV** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:52 am

Would YOU do it with YOUR dog?

No, I would not send my dog to a trainer for a few weeks, but you are dealing with a small section of the population on this forum. There are only people on here who want to learn and share their knowledge of gun dogs and their training. That probably puts this group in the top 1% of level of education for dog owners.

To illustrate that point: Over Thanksgiving weekend, my father's lab had a seizure for the first time at age 5. This dog is perfectly healthy, in good physical shape, and has had no previous health problems aside from the common (ear ache, loose stools, etc.)

The dog was rushed to the Emergeny vet clininc on Sunday. She was stabilized, but was still seizing and could not walk or keep her feet. Her seizures and symptoms were not consistent with epilesy, and her bloodwork was flawless.

After posting the symptoms and my observations on another board, and with the help of google, she was diagnosed with vestibular disease (by me) which is caused by an inner ear infection and results in a loss of equilibrium. It responds gradually to antibiotics and she is perfectly fine now.

I have half trained a lab, and I am training my first bird dog, a Brittany, right now. Compared to most of the people on this board, I don't know squat about training. But, I care to educate myself with every dog training and dog care website, forum, message board, magazine and book I can get my hands on.

I think that most of the people on this forum would fall in to the same category. So, the choices they make for their dog is different than the general public.

Will

rds7015 · Post by **rds7015** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:57 pm

Hi, I am new to this site. I have had GSPs for most of my life (61). You all have some very good points. I now have a Lab and he is very hard to train, not like a GSH. IMO all dogs need basic training sit here whoa and heel. Also with the hand signal and whistle. Sit and come, The heel should be with the shoulder even with your leg. This is so the dog can see the next area of hunt. Lets look at the reason for basic training. It is control. I AM VERY MUCH AGAINEST USEING AN ECOLLER, THEY HURT THE DOG. If you dont agree put one on and hit it and see if it hurts.
So I feel the more contro; the better the dog.
I work with 2 professional dog trainers. They teach ht and ft, Both retrievers and pointers. They use ecollars, but they have to turn out a trained dog in a short time. Each dog is different, but on a average 3months. This is for the basic of hunting. The dog is worked 3 times a day.
I hope to learn from this site and you all.
If the owner is not trained how do they know what to expect???

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:12 pm

Thank you, EWSIV! I would not send my dogs off to be trained by someone else....I just wouldn't do it. One of the most important things that comes from training with your dog - whether it be for a family pet that just lays around all day, hunt/field work, obedience titles, anything you can think of - is a very strong bond. You become a team. A partnership.

I don't believe you can achieve that same level of bond by sending your dog off to be trained by someone else....

In my job, even when I'm just training for a well behaved family dog that will do nothing more than chase a ball with a kid, the bond that is created between the humans and the dog as they learn to work together is the most amazing part of my job. And I watch it happen every single time a new client comes to class.

I wouldn't give that up - by sending my dogs out for training - for anything in the world.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:06 pm

I think we are "do"ers. Do'ers are people that want to do it themselves and go to whatever length to find out how to do it right. Then there are the non-doers. The non-doers will jump into something without properly finding out how, or sit around and procrastinate until it is too late, or will plainly just let someone else do it. The majority of people that bring their pups here will benifit personally because they will not leave without an understanding of how to better do things on their own. There is upkeep in any training and they will know how to best maintain a dogs training or build on it. We recently got a couple of pups in for starting that someone got too impatient when waiting to get them in, and decided to do it himself. It just took a couple of sessions to properly have the pups running from the field, birds, and gun. Ugh. When he got them in it was more than starting them, but fixing them. Luckily he did stop when he did and after a couple of weeks they were back after birds and doing great. He learned alot just watching how to go about taking them afield and what to do, and what "not" to do. Taking dogs to someone who has the knowledge to do it right can really benifit someone who does not, if they are wiling to take the time to learn

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:32 am

I can certainly see what you're saying there....to a point.

Having issues worked out of a dog is sorta on one side of the fence.....but I still think that a working partnership is much stronger when the handler and the dog work and develop together.

For example, think about all the other working dogs....police dogs, SAR teams, disaster dogs, exposive detection, drug detection...I could keep going. A different kind of work but those dogs still have a job just like a field dog. They train together.

In some police instances, the dog is trained early in basic police work, but after moving to his handler, the dog and the handler spend LOTS of time working together before the dog is put to the actual job.

Why?

Because a partnership has to develop. A trust. A team.

I totally understand a dog coming in for some training away from the handler to maybe get some issues worked out....that's no different from a client coming to me with a fear aggressive dog and hoping to recondition the dog. They sit there...I work with the dog.

But for actual training, I have to still think that a better relationship - thus giving a better response from the dog - is done best when it's between the handler and the dog.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:22 am

We are the same but different. A good field trainer/handler/owner needs to work with a dog to learn how to read it. Some dogs are soft and need a different way of training. Some are bullheaded and need a 2 x 4 across the head to get a point across (figuratively speaking - beating dogs is not a way to train any dog). Dogs will sometimes false point, you need to be able to tell false from true and encourage them to leave the false point. They will sometimes point animals such as skunks, raccoons, turkeys you would rather not have them mess with. You need to know when they are doing that vs. pointing birds. You need to understand when they are making game, when birds are running ahead of them, when birds were there but have left the area, all of which you can tell by reading the dog.

An added factor with hunting/field/field trial dogs is that you need to be able to read them the way any good coach can read and train an athlete, which is what they are. We condition dogs, which we do in a manner similar to the sled dog people, and the trainer needs to be able to read the dog to detect any signs of overtraining or unacceptable stress.

And of course, most of all, you have to understand when the dog is happy and working, or out of sorts there is something wrong and you need to check it over, or give it a rest.

Learning these things just takes common sense, but does not happen over night. Dogs are a journey.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:19 pm

"rds7015" said

.

I AM VERY MUCH AGAINEST USEING AN ECOLLER, THEY HURT THE DOG. If you dont agree put one on and hit it and see if it hurts.

The e-collar is the most humane, quickest, and kindest way to train a dog. You don't have to use it on high intensity--most days I just run mine on a 3

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:32 pm

I have to agree with Gonehuntin. I think people that think of them as a shock collar havethat opinion. But the way they should be used there is no real pain, just stimulation. That isn't as much as a pinch collar.

I've learned to never be against anything till you have learned how to use it. Most every tool out there is a good tool in the right hands.

Ezzy

rds7015 · Post by **rds7015** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:15 pm

Hey folks, dont get me wrong, that is my feelings after watching the ecollar used by pro. When the dog cries it is hurting. I have been trained to use the ecollar by the two pro trainers I have worked with.
I have been taught to get control of the dog. When you have control you dont need the ecollar.
I am not saying you are wrong using the ecollar, it just not for me. I came to this site to learn from you.

Jim S
Ps every dog I have had I have tained my self. But I am open to new methods of training.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:30 pm

As with any toll it is the person using the tool NOT the TOOL which is training a dog to hard or not
there are different levels on a collar
SOunds like if a handler is making a dog yelp all the time during training they need to learn how to turn the dial down

training isn't about pain...but the e collar is a super tool to correct a dog most times before a breach of manners becomes an issue

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:31 pm

how do you get control?

Brandon

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:35 pm

HUTCH wrote:how do you get control?

Brandon

Are you supposed to have that

ughhh I need to catch up with the times :roll: :roll:

HUTCH · Post by **HUTCH** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:52 pm

really! I forgot what that was when I got married.

Brandon

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:07 am

I'm really learning quite a bit from you guys! This has been a very informative thread.

I don't use ECollars....I'm not really sure why....I guess I've just never really had to. But I do use prong collars.....and you should see the look that I get from people when I suggest that their dog could benefit from one. Usually it's an "are you insane" sorta look.

Until I put one on the dog, start to condition him, teach the handler how to use it.......by the next week they are thanking me profusely!

You're right....some dogs are easy....some need that hypothetical 2X4!

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:18 am

Goldie, for field training, and with proper use, the ecollar is an awsome tool. I never had used one thru my obed days or the first 2 or 3 dogs I trained in the field, plus back then they were pretty ruffshod compared to todays advanced models. It is best used after a dog is taught what you want thru checkcording then as a backup. It is also an extension of the CC when the dog starts getting out at bigger distances. There are shorter units that are lass expensive for basic yard use too and are good for getting their attn. also.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:54 am

rds7015 wrote:Hey folks, dont get me wrong, that is my feelings after watching the ecollar used by pro. When the dog cries it is hurting. I have been trained to use the ecollar by the two pro trainers I have worked with.
I have been taught to get control of the dog. When you have control you dont need the ecollar.
I am not saying you are wrong using the ecollar, it just not for me. I came to this site to learn from you.

Jim S
Ps every dog I have had I have tained my self. But I am open to new methods of training.

If you want to see how a collar should be used, get a Dobbs video. Using a collar is much more humane and faster than any other method out there. I never take the collars off my dogs while they are hunting. That way you have total control over them at all times. Now, I don't mean you make them robot's, but should a deer get up in front of them, they hit a road with a car racing down it, or a bear stands up in front of you, you have control of the situation. All of these things have happened to me and I don't believe there is any dog out there trained without a collar that you could be sure could be controlled in these situations. It's so easy and so safe. I will never understand why so many people fear and dread the collar. Any dog of mine is as happy and does his job with as much enthusiasm as any other dog out there. It WAS NOT this way untile the variable intensity collars hit the market.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:22 am

When the dog cries it is hurting.

First, I have put a collar on myself and tried it. I think alot of us have. The sensation is one of a pinch, and you can feel the frequency pulsation of the current. But it is not painful except at the highest setting. It feels more like the snap you get in the winter from static electricity.

Correct use of the collar means using the lowest setting that will get the necessary reaction, and the lowest duration. Nowadays, collars come with a "nick" setting, which gives a short duration jolt. That is the most effective way to use it.

As for dogs crying out, it is more a cry of surprise than pain. OOoop! What was that???

For reasons I cannot explain, the worst "cryers" are the big hundred pound black labs. You can apply a current to them that a pointer would not react to and they will cry like they are dying. Don't know why.

The collar is an excellent tool, and it is not one that is used to rush a dog through training. In my view, a trainer can put three months into a dog, and you will have a started dog, not a finished one. That simply takes time, no way around it.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:51 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:First, I have put a collar on myself and tried it. I think alot of us have. The sensation is one of a pinch, and you can feel the frequency pulsation of the current. But it is not painful except at the highest setting. It feels more like the snap you get in the winter from static electricity.

John If this was the case than you are one tough SOB. I am an electrician by trade and I can barely stand a level 2 on my collar yet my oldest dog can suck up a level 5 on his belly. (a TT Pro 100 G2)

When discussing the e-collar it all boils down to the hands teh transmitter is in. Them knowing how much and when to give it is waht makes a differnce.

Just because someone calls a trainer a "PRO" doesnt make them good at what they do they are just gettign paid to do a job. The results are what makes them good. In my line of work there are those that are good and those that just get it done.

GoldenGirl · Post by **GoldenGirl** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:06 pm

AMEN!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:04 pm

John If this was the case than you are one tough SOB.

Either that or we have proof of my wife's theory that I am insensitive.

I have seen electricians with exit holes where the bolt came out, and they were back working. I think that makes you guys a little gunshy.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:31 pm

Funny Funny

Vizsla Vince · Post by **Vizsla Vince** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:57 pm

I've tried the collar as well. I have one that goes up to 16, & I've given myself a 3 with mild discomfort (3 is where I keep it for Zoomie).
My son likens it to licking a 9 volt battery(I'm so proud). Different collars have different levels of adjustment. Some have 5, some have 50. From what the D.T. rep told me, the highest level on most brands is pretty much the same...

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:49 pm

The highest level on most any collar will make your body move involuntarily. I guarantee it just put it on your forearm and watch your hand bounce around. It does hurt a little but there are dogs out there that just cock their heads and keep running. Dogs are "way" tougher than any person I ever shocked with my collars. As others stated the E is the greatest tool in the right hands. I mostly train GSP's but I never had one that I needed to make vocalize to train. My way (and alot of others way) of thinking about it is if the dog is vocalizing it is not learning.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:24 am

Casper; then you've been around electricity for too long. I put my fingers on the prongs of a collar. With a TT Pro 500 I can go up to 4 low before it gets uncomfortable; and that's all it is. Uncomfortable. Each dog's electrical tolerance is different and each collar is different. Back in the 70's and 80's when I worked as a retriever trainer (primarily) I worked with Chad James at TT on an advisory basis. No one could figure out why you could put one collar on a dog, and he would have no reaction to it. Put another collar on him and he'd yowl (remember, this was per-variable intensity). Whenever anyone would get a super "hot" collar we'd send it into TT so they could test it. Chad came to believe that it was the frequency of the collar that caused the discomfort. Everything else, voltage, amperage, would be equal. Since I quit in the late 80's, I still don't know if this was the correct diagnosis.

EWSIV · Post by **EWSIV** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:16 pm

GoldenGirl wrote:Thank you, EWSIV! I would not send my dogs off to be trained by someone else....I just wouldn't do it. One of the most important things that comes from training with your dog - whether it be for a family pet that just lays around all day, hunt/field work, obedience titles, anything you can think of - is a very strong bond. You become a team. A partnership.

I don't believe you can achieve that same level of bond by sending your dog off to be trained by someone else....

In my job, even when I'm just training for a well behaved family dog that will do nothing more than chase a ball with a kid, the bond that is created between the humans and the dog as they learn to work together is the most amazing part of my job. And I watch it happen every single time a new client comes to class.

I wouldn't give that up - by sending my dogs out for training - for anything in the world.

I am not saying that I would not send my dog out for training. I am saying that I would not send my dog out for the kind of training you described, which could only benefit someone that doesn't care at all to train their own dog or educate themselves about dog training.