Training collars

muleskinner · Post by **muleskinner** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:48 pm

Bought a GSP that was trained by a pro. Does everything just right and I love the dog. I do have one question. Without a shock collar on, he absolutely will not respond to any commands. With a shock collar on, he is a perfectly behaved dog and I very rarely, if ever, have to use the collar. I know that dogs can become collar trained, but I wonder if this was a stubborn, hard headed dog, or was it the methods of the trainer? I haven't asked the trainer this question. Just wanted to get some input from the folks here. He is 6 yrs old and has some field trial success under his belt.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:19 am

He's collar-wise. But if he has done well in trials, you know he is capable of behaving without a collar.

When my dog gets a little too big for his britches and decides he can do whatever he wants when he doesn't wear a collar, I chase him down and let him know that I can still reach out and touch him. You might start with a check cord and some yardwork. Keep him close and make him mind the first command, don't cut him any slack with ignoring a command the first time you say it.

Expand his range depending on how well he minds you.

Good luck, have fun

Backing up a few steps now and then isn't a big deal.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:22 am

My ol lab will lag on commands sometimes when not wearing an e-collar. She cleans up when the e-collar is on her neck. Like stated above, she needs a correction or two when she is not wearing the collar to get her attention. A loosely rolled newspaper smacked on the haunches works or the "bonker". A "bonker" is a tightly rolled hand towel with rubber bands holding it rolled. It is thrown at the dog to hit it hard enough to get its attention. It doesn't hurt the dog but they sure comply after a bonker comes their way.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:38 am

I had a similar problem with hounds, but found no one wants to hear bout it. Cool when you get them through it with no collar though. PEACE.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:12 am

muleskinner wrote:Bought a GSP that was trained by a pro. Does everything just right and I love the dog. I do have one question. Without a shock collar on, he absolutely will not respond to any commands. With a shock collar on, he is a perfectly behaved dog and I very rarely, if ever, have to use the collar. I know that dogs can become collar trained, but I wonder if this was a stubborn, hard headed dog, or was it the methods of the trainer? I haven't asked the trainer this question. Just wanted to get some input from the folks here. He is 6 yrs old and has some field trial success under his belt.

You've hopefully learned a valuable lesson. Now you have a fine hunting dog. Keep the collar on, hunt and have fun, uphold your standards, and forget trials...perhaps forever with this dog. But wait at least a year before considering running one again.

My greatest hope is that you figure out what you did to train him to be collar wise because they don't do it themselves.

EvanG

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:03 am

It would a very low IQ dog not to figure out when he has a collar on. They ALL figure it out if they aren't brain dead. The difference between collarwise or not is that they were allowed to blow off a command(s) without the collar at some time, or he wasn't solid on commands before the collar was added, and they collar was used to 'train' him instead to reinforce known commands.

If he's not a bonehead some steps back will help; if he is a bonehead lots of retraining in his future unless you choose to run with a collar all the time.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:31 am

One of my JRTs wears a bark collar during the day as he will drive the neighbours crazy otherwise. I haven't put a battery in it in years.

Shhh Don't tell him.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:54 am

My young pointer would sometimes go to barking when left in the truck. Sometimes I'd be caught without a barking collar and I'd take her ID collar, slide it up high and tighten it like the bark collar. She'd stop barking thinking i put the barking collar on her.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:36 am

shags wrote:It would a very low IQ dog not to figure out when he has a collar on. They ALL figure it out if they aren't brain dead. The difference between collarwise or not is that they were allowed to blow off a command(s) without the collar at some time, or he wasn't solid on commands before the collar was added, and they collar was used to 'train' him instead to reinforce known commands.

If he's not a bonehead some steps back will help; if he is a bonehead lots of retraining in his future unless you choose to run with a collar all the time.

What dogs are is "situation-wise". They are born that way to a tiny extent, but become increasingly more so as they mature. In each identifiable situation are what behaviorist B.F. Skinner calls "triggers"; sights, sounds, objects, activities, smells, and other things that combine to tell us and them that in a certain situation we can consistently expect certain things to happen, and for certain conditions to exist. This would be so whether or not we trained our dogs. They would still come to expect certain things of each distinct situation (Being safe, loved, and fed in our homes for example). But understanding that facilitates our ability to train our dogs more effectively, and to higher levels. It also calls upon us to see past our noses. Not everything is as it appears on the surface.

"Collar-wise" is an example of being situation-wise relative to an object combined with expectations created by its use - nearly always its inconsistent or incorrect use. Dogs are not born with an e-collar around their necks. We put those there, and by our use or misuse we create a set of expectations associated with them. A prime example of misuse is to run a young developing dog with an e-collar on sometimes, but not others. When we do that we mix expectations in a similar environment so that when the object (the collar) is on the dog, there is one standard, and when it's off there is a different, contrasting standard: Two sets of expectations. Trainers do it all the time. What they create is a dog that is now aware of the distinct expectations of a situation where the human has less control over them anytime that object is not present in the environment. Presto! He's collar-wise. There are, of course, other ways for a human to create this issue. But nature did not provide an e-collar for them to become wise to.

Shall we talk more?

EvanG

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:04 am

No need to...I think you just repeated what I said

Only in more edumacated language

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:36 am

Evan, all well and good but first let's acknowledge that muleskinner bought a field trial dog that had been run in trials and trained by someone other than himself.

muleskinner wrote:Bought a GSP that was trained by a pro... He is 6 yrs old and has some field trial success under his belt.

That established, what disdain he's encountering from the dog doesn't strike me as anything out of the ordinary for a birddog trained (and trained by somebody else) with good ol' (fashioned) direct pressure. Button pushed - Here boy, here! Button pushed again - Here boy, here! Wait a minute, there ain't no button...and ain't no collar on the dog...

I'm recollecting a Chessie that had been trained with some haphazard semblance of direct pressure - the old Zap!-command sequence - and the epigrammatic words spoken about the dog when it wasn't wearing an e-collar while waterfowling:

Chessie owner's father, proudly: "That dog's sho' nuff got a lot of go."
Chessie owner, sheepishly: "But she sho' nuff ain't got a lot of come back..."

MG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:29 pm

muleskinner wrote:Bought a GSP that was trained by a pro. Does everything just right and I love the dog. I do have one question. Without a shock collar on, he absolutely will not respond to any commands. With a shock collar on, he is a perfectly behaved dog and I very rarely, if ever, have to use the collar. I know that dogs can become collar trained, but I wonder if this was a stubborn, hard headed dog, or was it the methods of the trainer? I haven't asked the trainer this question. Just wanted to get some input from the folks here. He is 6 yrs old and has some field trial success under his belt.

I would be more 'learn-ed' If you did speak to the one who 'Trained it' and told us what they said ,than any-one on here

muleskinner · Post by **muleskinner** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:12 pm

At this point its really doesn't matter how the trainer handled the 6 yr old dog. I'm happy with his performance and have a blast hunting with him. Part of my motive in asking for insights into his tendencies is the fact that I am going to train my own pup now. I am going to use the book recommended on this forum, "Training the Sporting Dog". Just looking thru the book, they don't seem to be fans of the shock collar. Anyway, when i'm not hunting with my dog, I enjoy talking about hunting with my dog. Appreciate everyones response.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:38 pm

muleskinner wrote:At this point its really doesn't matter how the trainer handled the 6 yr old dog. I'm happy with his performance and have a blast hunting with him. Part of my motive in asking for insights into his tendencies is the fact that I am going to train my own pup now. I am going to use the book recommended on this forum, "Training the Sporting Dog". Just looking thru the book, they don't seem to be fans of the shock collar. Anyway, when i'm not hunting with my dog, I enjoy talking about hunting with my dog. Appreciate everyones response.

muleskinner, by calling it a shock collar leads me to believe you are making a wise choice by not using one.

Charle

muleskinner · Post by **muleskinner** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:56 am

Birddogger...lots of things have been said about those who,"assume". You might want to take a refesher course on the subject. I know full well what the purpose of a "training collar" is. If "shock collar" is offensive to your sensibilities, please accept my politically correct apology. I have used training collars for years on big game hounds. Both tone and stimulation modes. I trained a GSP in 1985 before training collars were even an item of discussion. He turned out just fine. So, don't worry about my tendencies with a collar. Trying to read between the lines and make judgements about someones intentions or abilities is probably not the best use of your time.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:38 pm

muleskinner, I hope you will accept my apology if you took it that I was trying to belittle or offend you.... It was not my intent. I just never use mine as a shock collar except for trash breaking. There was a time when they were nothing but shock collars and were a tool for trash breaking hounds. Times, products and training methods have changed immensely since those days, as I am sure you know. Heck, a very long time ago, I broke a hard headed pointer STWS with a load of small bird shot and she was a finished dog from that point on. She already knew what she was supposed to do before I resorted to it and she was no worse for the wear. There are much more humane ways now I.e. the e-collar.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:05 pm

I don't think you need to read between the lines when someone calls an e-collar a shock collar. I always shake my head and hope they just mis-spoke rather than not knowing how to use one. Sounds like you do, so alls well, but it sure is a head turner when ever I hear that term. Don't think you can blame the person who read it since it is what you posted.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:35 pm

I don't "blame the person " at all , but generally speaking , I do think words concerning training collars are very important., considering the calls for the banning of them in England and Scotland etc..

Even meeting the general public on a dog trail, I call it a locator collar- it does have a beeper.

Not illegal to drive around with your pick - up truck full of dead geese/coyotes etc either , but in this day and age , we have to be wise / circumspect.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... n+Edngland

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Sharon, you make some good points. Sadly, I am thinking that a couple of people on here who supposedly share the same interests as we do would be in favor of making e-collars illegal on this side of the pond too. I hope I am wrong but from their tone, that would be my guess. If this is the case, why stop at ecollars? We may as well include CC, leashes, prong collars and any other training tool that could be misused. Oh, and don' forget the choke collar. BTW, I hate the term "choke collar" because I am pretty sure that the people who use them are not choking dogs with them. I could go on but you get my point.

Charlie

muleskinner · Post by **muleskinner** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:57 pm

birddogger, no harm no foul. when it comes to trash breaking hounds, the term "shock collar" is correct. Fortunately I haven't had to use one in a long time for that purpose. Certainly don't expect to have to use a training collar on my GSP puppy. She seems to have the kind of temperament that will respond to positive input. Lots of love and patience should go a long ways with her.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:27 pm

Sharon wrote:I don't "blame the person " at all , but generally speaking , I do think words concerning training collars are very important., considering the calls for the banning of them in England and Scotland etc..

Even meeting the general public on a dog trail, I call it a locator collar- it does have a beeper.

Not illegal to drive around with your pick - up truck full of dead geese/coyotes etc either , but in this day and age , we have to be wise / circumspect.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... n+Edngland

Its a term promoted by PETA types. So, there's an association of the term "shock collar" to anti-hunting people by many hunting dog people.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:29 pm

muleskinner wrote:birddogger, no harm no foul. when it comes to trash breaking hounds, the term "shock collar" is correct. Fortunately I haven't had to use one in a long time for that purpose. Certainly don't expect to have to use a training collar on my GSP puppy. She seems to have the kind of temperament that will respond to positive input. Lots of love and patience should go a long ways with her.

Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, in my post above where I said a couple of people, you were not one who I was talking about.

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:27 pm

newsflash:

e collars /prong collars banned in Quebec 2 days ago

http://dogingtonpost.com/quebec-bans-sh ... wVnmWeYYY8

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:45 pm

Unbelievable! Save us from the "good people"!! :roll:

Charlie

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:06 am

Not surprised Quebec would be responsible for a dumb idea like that

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:48 am

I am not anti e-collar, but when I push the button my dog gets a shock. Does something different happen when I am sitting on my High horse? Call it what it is without being so sensitive.

Mike

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:33 pm

MJB64 wrote:I am not anti e-collar, but when I push the button my dog gets a shock. Does something different happen when I am sitting on my High horse? Call it what it is without being so sensitive.

Mike

The problem is this Mike; we are surrounded by the sensitive. http://www.banshockcollars.ca/comments This is just a small sampling of misinformed voices.

Nate

Beware of false knowledge; it is far more dangerous than ignorance. George Bernard Shaw

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:43 pm

Sharon wrote:newsflash:

e collars /prong collars banned in Quebec 2 days ago

http://dogingtonpost.com/quebec-bans-sh ... wVnmWeYYY8

Tail docking is next !
You were all given the Heads up !

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:23 am

These crazy laws just seem to be imposed on us whether we like it or not and if there is "scientific evidence" about tail docking or e-collars or prong collars the powers that be only seem to listen to the evidence that points towards them being harmful. Contrary evidence gets ignored .

Tail docking is banned in Scotland despite the evidence submitted in writing and in photographs showing the damage done to undocked dogs tails.... I've seen spaniels at shoots with tail ends so bloodied that the dogs flanks are covered in blood from it wagging it's tail.

E-collars are banned in Wales and the rest of Britain will probably follow.

I thought prong collars looked like instruments of torture but many of the dogs competing in pointer/setter trials wear them while waiting to compete. I asked about this and was told prong collars actually helped prevent damage to the dogs necks since the dogs did not pull so hard while wearing them. I doubted the truth of this so I made further enquiries and found a veterinary report ( from the U.S.A. ?) A number of dogs had been x-rayed and the x-rays revealed considerably more little neck injuries to the dogs that had been trained and walked using normal slip leads or choke chains than was evident on the dogs that had worn prong collars.
I now hardly turn a hair if I see a dog wearing a prong-collar.

Bill T.

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:15 am

I understand what Sharon and Roanie are saying. Thanks for saying what you guys did say, because it does clear some things up for me. I think saying that when someone refers to the collar as something The other side may not like, is probably better than making assumptions about ones training ability. I sat down at lunch with a Sportsmans Alliance Board Member yesterday for lunch and the other side is coming after us for a lot more than just what we call the collars. I try and support them "SA" the best I can because I feel they best represent me and my hunting affairs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:56 am

MJB64 wrote:I am not anti e-collar, but when I push the button my dog gets a shock. Does something different happen when I am sitting on my High horse? Call it what it is without being so sensitive.

Mike

You are just as wrong as you can be. I go to rehab a couple of times a week and they hook me up to a machine wired like an e-collar and call it electrical stimulation. Doesn't feel bad but it does get your attention. When I try my e-collar I get the same stimulation and there is no shock to it. As I sit here I have the same impulses going through my foot and they are caused by the normal electrical impulses that makes your heart beat and your muscles move but instead of wires they travel on nerves.

Sounds like people need to use their collars on their own arms or where ever and see what it really feels like. A electrical shock is a whole lot different than low settings on a collar. I have to turn mine up a couple of settings before Rush will even feel it. and I can't feel it either on the lowest setting. Properly used there is no shock to it. but I know 99% of you already know this.

Ezzy

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 am

I agree with MJB64, my collars were always used with the threat of or actually electricity. Put it to myself a dozen times for sure. Not terribly painful but electricity for sure. I haven't bought one for at least 8 years and maybe they have come along way since then like someone suggested. I heard Garmin was coming out with one that deposits a cookie when you push the button though. Think their teaming up with Keebler. check it out at Youhavegottobekidding.com.

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:33 am

Tell me the exact number on your collar when it changes from "stimulation" to "shock".

Mike

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:36 am

MJB64 wrote:Tell me the exact number on your collar when it changes from "stimulation" to "shock".

Mike

Are you serious?

EvanG

Frankug · Post by **Frankug** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:47 am

Ezzy when you put yourself in the 99% and a forum guest in the 1% it kind of brings on that Us against Them you so loath.

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:06 am

Evan, you just made my point. There is no level where it changes. At level 1 my dog is getting a shock, and yes I have tried it on myself.

Mike

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:30 am

MJB64 wrote:Evan, you just made my point. There is no level where it changes. At level 1 my dog is getting a shock, and yes I have tried it on myself.

Mike

I'm curious to know what system of training you have used with the e-collar or if you used the instructions that came with the unit.

Nate

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:41 am

I trained him without it. I ran a lot.

Mike

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:45 am

Frankug wrote:Ezzy when you put yourself in the 99% and a forum guest in the 1% it kind of brings on that Us against Them you so loath.

No, Ezzy's right as rain on this one - 'fraid you and the "guest" are going semantic on us. And yes, I love me e-stim too - whether it's a "shock" to my system or an e-massage, it's good for you.

MG

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:49 am

Mike...you ran a lot? Then you had to make too many corrections because you were too late to be as effective as you should have been.

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:53 pm

Mike...you ran a lot? Then you had to make too many corrections because you were too late to be as effective as you should have been.

Wow. Unseen and unsolicited diagnosis all the way from California. Feel Pretty good now? How could you possibly know how effective I was? As I stated before, I am not anti collar. I just don't like it when someone on this forum refers to it as a shock collar and all of the high and mighty types jump on them and assume that they don't know what they are doing.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:45 pm

Unseen...yes. However, unless your comment was tongue in cheek or a misrepresentation mine cannot be anything but accurate. Any and all disciplines in dog training whether they be bird dogs or otherwise have established that enhancing or correcting behavior has a diminishing effectiveness as seconds tick by. Because I am patient, I will give you an example; our well meaning kind hearted dog trainer uses a check cord or a rope to get his or her dog standing birds, they go through dozens or hundreds of reps until they are confident...they remove the training aid and as most dogs will, their dog decides to test the rules and disciplines it has learned. Running free Fido breaks point and rips up a bird, he gleefully chases and maybe even runs the bird down, to either retrieve or chomp on. Either way Fido has enjoyed the experience...how does our tool less trainer react? We have agreed...they run the dog down, what happens thereafter depends on how engrained it is, who the human is and how much dog you are dealing with....it usually isn't pretty. As opposed, to a trainer that has used a check cord and overplayed an e collar and makes a correction in real time and stops a dog because it has prepared to stop on the stimulation applied...when you are good it happens before the dog moves, even the brand new get to do it the second it happens and they prevent the dog from being rewarded for its transgression....in the dog world that is a double deterrent they get no reward and they are corrected immediately for violating a learned discipline. Because I have done both A LOT through the years I know which is more effective and humane....because of that, I respond to your other proclamation this way....

Unsolicited no: this is a forum to help the less experienced train their dogs and or to shoot the bull...in the latter experience and knowledge hold little weight and one persons opinion is no better or worse than the next...in the former it matters a great deal if for no other reason than the sake of the dogs.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:56 pm

I only wish I could articulate it as well!

Charlie

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:18 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Unseen...yes. However, unless your comment was tongue in cheek or a misrepresentation mine cannot be anything but accurate. Any and all disciplines in dog training whether they be bird dogs or otherwise have established that enhancing or correcting behavior has a diminishing effectiveness as seconds tick by. Because I am patient, I will give you an example; our well meaning kind hearted dog trainer uses a check cord or a rope to get his or her dog standing birds, they go through dozens or hundreds of reps until they are confident...they remove the training aid and as most dogs will, their dog decides to test the rules and disciplines it has learned. Running free Fido breaks point and rips up a bird, he gleefully chases and maybe even runs the bird down, to either retrieve or chomp on. Either way Fido has enjoyed the experience...how does our tool less trainer react? We have agreed...they run the dog down, what happens thereafter depends on how engrained it is, who the human is and how much dog you are dealing with....it usually isn't pretty. As opposed, to a trainer that has used a check cord and overplayed an e collar and makes a correction in real time and stops a dog because it has prepared to stop on the stimulation applied...when you are good it happens before the dog moves, even the brand new get to do it the second it happens and they prevent the dog from being rewarded for its transgression....in the dog world that is a double deterrent they get no reward and they are corrected immediately for violating a learned discipline. Because I have done both A LOT through the years I know which is more effective and humane....because of that, I respond to your other proclamation this way....

Unsolicited no: this is a forum to help the less experienced train their dogs and or to shoot the bull...in the latter experience and knowledge hold little weight and one persons opinion is no better or worse than the next...in the former it matters a great deal if for no other reason than the sake of the dogs.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:50 pm

I cannot imagine "running" down my dog to correct behavior....

I would never catch him.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:58 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I cannot imagine "running" down my dog to correct behavior....

I would never catch him.

Purely for this thread and comment !
Here is one that had a history of 'Doing it's own thing with It's owner' ..and It's owner would never catch them

You don't need running shoes !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_aYyCiwDQ

Can You Imagine Elkhunter?

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:20 pm

My dog is usually 400-500+ yards away, not gonna catch him.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:23 pm

Elkhunter wrote:My dog is usually 400-500+ yards away, not gonna catch him.

Nope!....
Neither am I .
Hope you catch him soon. :roll:

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:30 pm

polmaise wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:My dog is usually 400-500+ yards away, not gonna catch him.
Nope!....
Neither am I .
Hope you catch him soon. :roll:

Dont need to, thats why I have a shock collar!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:42 pm

I think running a dog down depends on the type of dog you are training. A far ranging pointy dog it may not be reasonable, but those of us with spaniels and labs (or other close ranging gun dogs), chasing them down is a very real part of training in the early stages. I remember trying to teach my pup the remote sit... I must have ran a marathon trying to catch him on the way back in to put him back in place. He always wanted to run back to me and sit beside or in front of me LOL. I will say, an e-collar is MUCH more EFFICIENT at enforcing that lesson LOL.