SHOOTING UNPOINTED BIRDS

[birddog1968]

It was also interesting to me, and related if on a tangent, that Greenlee advocates correcting chasing as a way to eliminate creeping. Since I'd been trying to correct creeping as the first link towards bumping and chasing, this was a neat concept.

I agree with that, I stop to flush dogs very early on after a short time allowing some bump and chase as very young pups. I've found it helps in a few ways getting the dog honest and staunch on point.

[slistoe]

It was also interesting to me, and related if on a tangent, that Greenlee advocates correcting chasing as a way to eliminate creeping. Since I'd been trying to correct creeping as the first link towards bumping and chasing, this was a neat concept.

I agree with that, I stop to flush dogs very early on after a short time allowing some bump and chase as very young pups. I've found it helps in a few ways getting the dog honest and staunch on point.

Training methods are evolving to reflect the lack of genetic selection.

[birddog1968]

LOL just as peoples opinions evolve to suit their own biases and right or wrong assumptions.......


Dogs didn't need trained or chase birds 100 years ago , huh? I agree with you on alot of things so maybe i misunderstand
what your implying....

[slistoe]

LOL just as peoples opinions evolve to suit their own biases and right or wrong assumptions.......


Dogs didn't need trained or chase birds 100 years ago , huh? I agree with you on alot of things so maybe i misunderstand
what your implying....

There was a time when a trainer showed up on the Canadian Prairie in the spring with 75+ dogs - whole litters of pups of the winter. They turned them loose and let them hunt. Some were never found again. Some were never seen on point on a bird. Eventually they found some of them on point. Those dogs that broke themselves of flushing early on and became naturally staunch got on the train to go home in the fall - maybe 10 of them in a good year. The bigger running the dog, the more solid they needed to be on their birds on their own to make the grade ie. for the trainer to find the young dog standing its birds. The best of those were used the next year to sire/whelp more pups and the process repeated itself.
Then along came Delmar Smith.

[birddog1968]

Yup, and we found out it wasn't worth sending 100's of dogs to their death because they wouldn't make themselves........

.....and some would say we have better dogs today because of it. Better understanding and better methods.

I don't doubt , in fact know alot of people breed dogs that aren't worth breeding, and people buy those dogs and think they are the greatest thing
since sliced bread and breed again dogs not worth breeding. That's why educating one's self is so important, so a person can make the best decisions
possible in choosing stock. But.......we both know a ton of people breed on emotions and likely always have, even the greats.

That all said, its still no problem to find great pups.....if one only knows what to look for and where to go looking for it.

[slistoe]

Yup, and we found out it wasn't worth sending 100's of dogs to their death because they wouldn't make themselves........

.....and some would say we have better dogs today because of it. Better understanding and better methods.

I don't doubt , in fact know alot of people breed dogs that aren't worth breeding, and people buy those dogs and think they are the greatest thing
since sliced bread and breed again dogs not worth breeding. That's why educating one's self is so important, so a person can make the best decisions
possible in choosing stock. But.......we both know a ton of people breed on emotions and likely always have, even the greats.

That all said, its still no problem to find great pups.....if one only knows what to look for and where to go looking for it.

I would not say that modern training evolution is not a good thing - it is great in fact. But as we progress many folks forget where it is that the strength of the genetics they have come to expect in the Pointer blood comes from. Many other breeds are worse off because they don't have that strength behind them and the selection process is further muddied.
If training methodology continues to evolve however, it won't really matter if we have the pointing gene in any form or not, will it.

[ibbowhunting]

what is meet by a pointed bird?

Is it a bird pointed and then soon after flush by the dog

or is it only consider pointed when the dog stands and lets the handler flush

[birddog1968]

Yup, and we found out it wasn't worth sending 100's of dogs to their death because they wouldn't make themselves........

.....and some would say we have better dogs today because of it. Better understanding and better methods.

I don't doubt , in fact know alot of people breed dogs that aren't worth breeding, and people buy those dogs and think they are the greatest thing
since sliced bread and breed again dogs not worth breeding. That's why educating one's self is so important, so a person can make the best decisions
possible in choosing stock. But.......we both know a ton of people breed on emotions and likely always have, even the greats.

That all said, its still no problem to find great pups.....if one only knows what to look for and where to go looking for it.

I would not say that modern training evolution is not a good thing - it is great in fact. But as we progress many folks forget where it is that the strength of the genetics they have come to expect in the Pointer blood comes from. Many other breeds are worse off because they don't have that strength behind them and the selection process is further muddied.
If training methodology continues to evolve however, it won't really matter if we have the pointing gene in any form or not, will it.

I think thats a doomsday look ahead and not necessarily accurate. I think you could still take 100 dogs north and come home with 10 and that will never change in the circles of well bred dogs. Though the chaff around the edges may continue to expand. Who knows what the very far future holds but for some time ahead there are still plenty of people who know and seek out and breed darn good dogs. I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.....

[UplandJim]

If you have something to say just say it and stop trying to bait people just to tell them they are wrong so you can correct them and feel better about your vast knowledge and ability to name drop.

Thank you for your contribution..

My contribution is better than beating the dead horses that you always do while riding on someone else's coattail...

+1

[whoadog]

Sorry for being late to the party but here's my contribution. Richard Wolters' on page 140 of Gundog is another that also said "no whoa, no bird". Given the strong feelings that resonate in the training community towards Wolters to this day that may or may not seem like a good source. Just out of curiosity, Neil, why are you only intersted in hearing from nationally known trainers? I know some excellent trainers that have never written a book and almost no one has heard of. That does not mean that their experience/wisdom counts for nothing. The first person that actually passed that nugget to me was a nationally known breeder that said all you had to do to make one of his dogs into a bird dog was get him into birds and leave the busted ones alone. For just your everyday hunting companion it worked fairly well too.

[clink83]

From Dave Walker:" When you're teaching your dog to be steady to wing, never shoot over him."

The Bird Dog Training Manual. Under "steady To Wing.

Dave's methods are ever changing. One thing he emphasizes is if the dog is souring on you shoot him a bird. No matter what you're teaching them. That's not in any book, it's straight out of Dave's mouth.

Doug

That is in his book too, its just not 100% obvious. His book is kind of hard to understand without seeing him working or watching his videos.
His point as I understand it is that it's better to take 3 steps forward and 2 back when breaking your dog to keep his style. He readily tells you in his videos(or in person) that shooting unpointed birds makes your dog less steady.

[DonF]

One of the few books I have is the official training system of the American Hunting dog club, "Training The Sporting Dog"by Smith and Jones, otherwise called "The Orange Book". Many people consider this to be one of the best and most thorough books on dog training ever written.

From page 220: "CAUTION: There is one cardinal rule when working pointing dogs. NO bird is ever shot that has been flushed by the dog until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall." "After the dog is completely steady, you may decide to teach him to flush on command, or shoot birds that he accidentally flushed, provided that he stops to flush and does not chase."

There's a contradiction here. "No bird is ever shot.........................................................until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall". How do you get a dog steady to fall without shooting a bird?

I have been sitting here trying to think where I heard this or read this. I haven't read a lot of training book's, Delmar's was my bible. But I don't recall Delmar ever mentioning it. In those days, he worked his dog's in on birds on a check cord. Dog's on a check cord in theory can't bust birds. So where did I hear it? Not a clue! Personally I don't believe it's a good idea but then I'm sure some people have done it successfully. Perhaps back then it wasn't a real problem because I suspect all breaking was done on a check cord, not with a dog running free. So there is control during the breaking process.

Got no clue where that came from but I have never shot birds for a pointing dog not steady to at least flush. My memory is falling apart! But I do remember the first time I almost had sex!

[gonehuntin']

One of the few books I have is the official training system of the American Hunting dog club, "Training The Sporting Dog"by Smith and Jones, otherwise called "The Orange Book". Many people consider this to be one of the best and most thorough books on dog training ever written.

From page 220: "CAUTION: There is one cardinal rule when working pointing dogs. NO bird is ever shot that has been flushed by the dog until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall." "After the dog is completely steady, you may decide to teach him to flush on command, or shoot birds that he accidentally flushed, provided that he stops to flush and does not chase."

There's a contradiction here. "No bird is ever shot.........................................................until he is completely steady to wing, shot and fall". How do you get a dog steady to fall without shooting a bird?

I have been sitting here trying to think where I heard this or read this. I haven't read a lot of training book's, Delmar's was my bible. But I don't recall Delmar ever mentioning it. In those days, he worked his dog's in on birds on a check cord. Dog's on a check cord in theory can't bust birds. So where did I hear it? Not a clue! Personally I don't believe it's a good idea but then I'm sure some people have done it successfully. Perhaps back then it wasn't a real problem because I suspect all breaking was done on a check cord, not with a dog running free. So there is control during the breaking process.

Got no clue where that came from but I have never shot birds for a pointing dog not steady to at least flush. My memory is falling apart! But I do remember the first time I almost had sex!

Don, look at it once more. He says "that the dog has flushed".

[Neil]

Please go back and check on any thread on training a young dog and within 3 posts someone is sure to instruct NEVER shoot an unpointed bird. It always happens!

I only asked for a nationally known authority, not to disparage local trainers or the Green Book, but to understand how it became such universal advice here.

You all got the advice from somewhere, but dang if I can figure out where.

I don't know a trainer that worries about it much, surely not as much as those here.

[DonF]

Sorry for being late to the party but here's my contribution. Richard Wolters' on page 140 of Gundog is another that also said "no whoa, no bird". Given the strong feelings that resonate in the training community towards Wolters to this day that may or may not seem like a good source. Just out of curiosity, Neil, why are you only intersted in hearing from nationally known trainers? I know some excellent trainers that have never written a book and almost no one has heard of. That does not mean that their experience/wisdom counts for nothing. The first person that actually passed that nugget to me was a nationally known breeder that said all you had to do to make one of his dogs into a bird dog was get him into birds and leave the busted ones alone. For just your everyday hunting companion it worked fairly well too.

Richard Wolter's???

[birddogger]

Please go back and check on any thread on training a young dog and within 3 posts someone is sure to instruct NEVER shoot an unpointed bird. It always happens!

I only asked for a nationally known authority, not to disparage local trainers or the Green Book, but to understand how it became such universal advice here.

You all got the advice from somewhere, but dang if I can figure out where.

I don't know a trainer that worries about it much, surely not as much as those here.

Neil, I don't believe I ever got that advise from any training authority. It just always seemed like common sense to me. I have always advised to never shoot an unpointed bird and don't do it myself. By unpointed bird, I am not talking about a bird flushing wild or one that I accidently kick up or even one that the dog accidently bumps. I am talking about a bird that the dog intentionally roads in on, flushes and chases, which I never shoot at and would advise that if asked. It just doesn't make sense to me to reward a dog for intentionally flushing and chasing when I am wanting a steady pointing dog instead of a flusher.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

Please go back and check on any thread on training a young dog and within 3 posts someone is sure to instruct NEVER shoot an unpointed bird. It always happens!

I only asked for a nationally known authority, not to disparage local trainers or the Green Book, but to understand how it became such universal advice here.

You all got the advice from somewhere, but dang if I can figure out where.

I don't know a trainer that worries about it much, surely not as much as those here.

Neil, I don't believe I ever got that advise from any training authority. It just always seemed like common sense to me. I have always advised to never shoot an unpointed bird and don't do it myself. By unpointed bird, I am not talking about a bird flushing wild or one that I accidently kick up or even one that the dog accidently bumps. I am talking about a bird that the dog intentionally roads in on, flushes and chases, which I never shoot at and would advise that if asked. It just doesn't make sense to me to reward a dog for intentionally flushing and chasing when I am wanting a steady pointing dog instead of a flusher.

Charlie

Exactly

[NorthTexasBirdHunter]

Neil,
Unwritten rule or not, why would you want to?
What is the more important? The harvesting of the bird or the performance of the dog? When you get it all done in one verse, done correctly, is the prize we all are looking for.

MP

[DonF]

Through all of this, I suspect no one want's to admit they've done it. I have but not with a pointing dog. My first gun dogs were a lab and a springer. I got the dogs so I had a way to get ducks I shot out of the pond and I got the springer so I could find more birds to shoot. In those days my interest lay primarily in killing birds, dog work was nice but I sure didn't let any of it get in the way of the shot! By the time I was into pointing dogs, lot's of things had changed. First off I found my dog was my buddy and always willing to go with me. Then with my first pointing dog I discovered that if a pointing dog flush's a bird it is normally out of gun range, way out. I found it impossible to shoot a flushed bird over my shorthair. I didn't shoot any over that dog for quite a while but at one point I was out with that dog and she pointed a pheasant for me. I hurried trying to get there before she flushed it and actually made it, got two that way that day. I don't recall if that made me decide to not shoot any birds she didn't handle right but I suspect it didn't, heck, when she did it wrong she was still way out of range! What did I know about a dog handling birds right/ not a thing! So I'm pretty sure it came from somewhere else, can't remember where. I have never shot a bird over a pointing dog that didn't handle the bird right for no other reason than I had a hard time hitting flying birds with a 30-06! I know I learned that somewhere though, I didn't think it up! Had to be the Delmar book but I don't remember where in there if it was.

[Neil]

I have a good hunting partner that will not shoot any birds that are not properly handled, and when I hunt with him, I enjoy doing the same.

He says he does it for two reasons:

1. Conservation, he has no desire to kill every bird that flies,

2. Aesthetics, he is a gentleman and believes in being proper. He does not hog shots, claim other's birds, and is never rude to dogs or people.

Now he always has well behaved dogs, perhaps there is a connection.

It is fun to walk alonng at a comfortable pace, with guns broken open, and wait for a solid point.

I once had a gun malfunction, so we finished the hunt taking turns with his gun. That brought so many smiles that he suggested we do it on purpose sometime.

[buckshot1]

I was thinking about this thread while I was hunting my GSP pup on pheasants last weekend. For some background, I started hunting him at the very tail end of pheasant season last year, but I didn't shoot any for him because he never pinned one down to my satisfaction. He had a few situations last year where he pointed, the bird ran off, and then he bumped the bird while trying to reestablish point. I didn't shoot then because I didn't want him to associate moving right before the bird flushed with me killing the bird for him, even though I don't think he was trying to rip the bird. As everyone knows, pinning down a wild late season rooster is a tough proposition for any dog, much less a young pup. Last weekend, however, he pinned one down really tight after reestablishing a couple times. He even held it for about a minute while I caught up to him, then held steady as a rock while I kicked up the rooster (steady until the bird flushed at least). So of course I finally shot his first rooster for him! It was amazing to see the light turn on after I shot that rooster. He instantly got way more cautious when working running birds and even pointed a few from 30-50 yards out. Not that he didn't want to point before, but you could tell he was being EXTRA careful not to bump the bird after I showed him what I expected. I think you're sending a very strong message to a young dog that he did exactly what you expected of him anytime you shoot a bird for him. If you shoot a bird that he doesn't point, then you're telling him that you don't expect him to point.

[Neil]

I was thinking about this thread while I was hunting my GSP pup on pheasants last weekend. For some background, I started hunting him at the very tail end of pheasant season last year, but I didn't shoot any for him because he never pinned one down to my satisfaction. He had a few situations last year where he pointed, the bird ran off, and then he bumped the bird while trying to reestablish point. I didn't shoot then because I didn't want him to associate moving right before the bird flushed with me killing the bird for him, even though I don't think he was trying to rip the bird. As everyone knows, pinning down a wild late season rooster is a tough proposition for any dog, much less a young pup. Last weekend, however, he pinned one down really tight after reestablishing a couple times. He even held it for about a minute while I caught up to him, then held steady as a rock while I kicked up the rooster (steady until the bird flushed at least). So of course I finally shot his first rooster for him! It was amazing to see the light turn on after I shot that rooster. He instantly got way more cautious when working running birds and even pointed a few from 30-50 yards out. Not that he didn't want to point before, but you could tell he was being EXTRA careful not to bump the bird after I showed him what I expected. I think you're sending a very strong message to a young dog that he did exactly what you expected of him anytime you shoot a bird for him. If you shoot a bird that he doesn't point, then you're telling him that you don't expect him to point.

Good for you. Had you missed the bird would it have told him that even when he does right he does not get a reward? Now there is some shooting pressure I don't need. If shooting a bird makes a dog, does missing it ruin it?

[DonF]

Ya know, a post just got me to thinking. Back when I started in pointing dog's there was no personal computer much less site's like this. Today I'd bet everybody first hears about it on the internet.

[buckshot1]

I was thinking about this thread while I was hunting my GSP pup on pheasants last weekend. For some background, I started hunting him at the very tail end of pheasant season last year, but I didn't shoot any for him because he never pinned one down to my satisfaction. He had a few situations last year where he pointed, the bird ran off, and then he bumped the bird while trying to reestablish point. I didn't shoot then because I didn't want him to associate moving right before the bird flushed with me killing the bird for him, even though I don't think he was trying to rip the bird. As everyone knows, pinning down a wild late season rooster is a tough proposition for any dog, much less a young pup. Last weekend, however, he pinned one down really tight after reestablishing a couple times. He even held it for about a minute while I caught up to him, then held steady as a rock while I kicked up the rooster (steady until the bird flushed at least). So of course I finally shot his first rooster for him! It was amazing to see the light turn on after I shot that rooster. He instantly got way more cautious when working running birds and even pointed a few from 30-50 yards out. Not that he didn't want to point before, but you could tell he was being EXTRA careful not to bump the bird after I showed him what I expected. I think you're sending a very strong message to a young dog that he did exactly what you expected of him anytime you shoot a bird for him. If you shoot a bird that he doesn't point, then you're telling him that you don't expect him to point.

Good for you. Had you missed the bird would it have told him that even when he does right he does not get a reward? Now there is some shooting pressure I don't need. If shooting a bird makes a dog, does missing it ruin it?

He probably thinks the same thing that everyone else thinks whenever I miss a bird - that his boss can't shoot for s**t!

[Neil]

Now you are just being obtuse. I asked an honest question. And trust me dogs no nothing of shooting skills.

[gonehuntin']

Good for you. Had you missed the bird would it have told him that even when he does right he does not get a reward? Now there is some shooting pressure I don't need. If shooting a bird makes a dog, does missing it ruin it?

I

Why would it? The dog has done everything correctly and was proofed by the shot, same as a blank pistol. If it's going to ruin a dog every time we miss a bird, aren't going to be many trained dogs out there.

That is a WHOLE lot different from shoo ting and rewarding a dog for mishandling a bird.

[Francois P vd Walt]

We have very little reading or pro trainers in South Africa.....

It only makes total sence that the sooner the dog learns that holding the bird brings a happy ending the better, pointers should point, flushers flush IMO there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to dogs. What you think is the right way and what works for you great!

However getting the dog to hold birds you should NOT shoot flushed or bumped birds ever. It is a tuff one for most hunters and the reason for this is you might not get enough time out, when you do get the time out you would like to shoot the bird doesnt matter how untidy the work was. And some days there will be no birds this added frustration combined with not having enough hunting time results in shooting everything that flies.

Sorry Neil I only get to read this forum for most dogging isdues I had to take a break after some of my posts as a rookie/beginner instead of help rather got kicked in the teeth. I like the forum better now that I understand the humour of some guys, better the language barrier was my biggest hurdle, I love dogs and hunting over my dogs.
I hunt 200 days a year most years the little knowledge I have comes from trial and error.....

Happy hunting & remember to have fun!

[gonehuntin']

I hunt 200 days a year most years the little knowledge I have comes from trial and error.....

Happy hunting & remember to have fun!

Holly cow! 200 day's........you're my hero!!

[birddogger]

Good for you. Had you missed the bird would it have told him that even when he does right he does not get a reward? Now there is some shooting pressure I don't need. If shooting a bird makes a dog, does missing it ruin it?

I

Why would it? The dog has done everything correctly and was proofed by the shot, same as a blank pistol. If it's going to ruin a dog every time we miss a bird, aren't going to be many trained dogs out there.

That is a WHOLE lot different from shoo ting and rewarding a dog for mishandling a bird.

I agree and from my experience, while a good shot with a clean kill is the best, the gun shot alone seems to be a reward for most dogs.....It really excites and amps them up.

Charlie

[DonF]

Now you are just being obtuse. I asked an honest question. And trust me dogs no nothing of shooting skills.

Obtuse? That word is used on Shawshank Redemption and I've no clue what it means. Would look in the dictionary but no idea where i put the d*mn thing.

[buckshot1]

Now you are just being obtuse. I asked an honest question. And trust me dogs no nothing of shooting skills.

I was joking. I'll get off your lawn now.

[Neil]

Now you are just being obtuse. I asked an honest question. And trust me dogs no nothing of shooting skills.

I was joking. I'll get off your lawn now.

Please don't leave without answering an honest question, I really want to know what you think.

And as for definitions, just type any word in Google, and presto you will know. The Internet has value beyond arguing.

And the question has never been can you have a staunch dog if you don't shoot birds, I am sure you can achieve it by not sucking your teeth, and shooting unpointed birds annoys me a lot less. A dog is staunch from training, some need more than others, but shooting or not shoting has never been my concern.

The most important thing is you all have dogs you enjoy.

[Neil]

I really do not understand all the animosity. I am not saying you should go out of your way to shoot unpointed birds. I am saying it is not a big deal. Shoot or don't shoot, I just believe, strongly, that not shooting birds should be the only advice given to a new trainer. There is so much more to properly train a dog.

All I was asking was an understanding of how it became so prevalent here. It really is like one of the Commandments. Shoot, don't shoot, train the dog, is my position.

Neil

[birddogger]

Neil, I haven't noticed any animosity toward the subject, maybe a little passion but not animosity unless I missed it.

Charlie

[slistoe]

Neil, it is the safe way. There are times when shooting unpointed birds will be of harm to a training program. There are times when it will be of no effect. There are times when it will be of great help to training a dog. But in the end, that would mean that you would have to actually know and understand the differences and how they applied specifically to dog you were presently working with. In the spirit of the popularly ascribed to philosophy of "do no harm" it is much easier to simply eliminate the practice - then you cannot get it wrong. Kind of like "Don't teach sit to a pointing dog." With some dogs, in some situations it may come back to bite you and require extra training (neither teaching sit nor shooting unpointed birds will "do harm" in a manner that is totally non-repairable) and it is impossible to KNOW beforehand whether you are working with "that dog" or not till after the fact. So, the common mantra becomes "Don't teach sit to a pointing dog." and "Don't shoot unpointed birds."

[buckshot1]

Now you are just being obtuse. I asked an honest question. And trust me dogs no nothing of shooting skills.

I was joking. I'll get off your lawn now.

Please don't leave without answering an honest question, I really want to know what you think.

And as for definitions, just type any word in Google, and presto you will know. The Internet has value beyond arguing.

And the question has never been can you have a staunch dog if you don't shoot birds, I am sure you can achieve it by not sucking your teeth, and shooting unpointed birds annoys me a lot less. A dog is staunch from training, some need more than others, but shooting or not shoting has never been my concern.

The most important thing is you all have dogs you enjoy.

I looked up the definition of obtuse on the internet, as you suggested. Obtuse means stupid or unintelligent - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obtuse. You expect people to answer your questions after you call them stupid?

[Neil]

My sincere apologies, I used the word obtuse to mean to not be clear or to the point, 2-b on your link. I have always used it when someone is deliberately confusing. As with angles, the opposite of acute.

Sorry, I did not mean to insult.

Neil

[whoadog]

Sorry for being late to the party but here's my contribution. Richard Wolters' on page 140 of Gundog is another that also said "no whoa, no bird". Given the strong feelings that resonate in the training community towards Wolters to this day that may or may not seem like a good source. Just out of curiosity, Neil, why are you only intersted in hearing from nationally known trainers? I know some excellent trainers that have never written a book and almost no one has heard of. That does not mean that their experience/wisdom counts for nothing. The first person that actually passed that nugget to me was a nationally known breeder that said all you had to do to make one of his dogs into a bird dog was get him into birds and leave the busted ones alone. For just your everyday hunting companion it worked fairly well too.

Richard Wolter's???

What's wrong with Richard Wolters?

[Fun dog]

I know that Jon Hahn says that if they mess up, they don't get to retrieve, ever! He also lets dogs walk in on a bird till it flushes so the dog learns he can't get too close. There's no shooting of the bird there.

[natel24]

I hunt wild birds in northern illinois, I will shoot any rooster i see whether he pointed it or not. Any rooster you can shoot around where i hunt is an accomplishment in my book. I joke that its harder to shoot an ogle county rooster than it is a ten point buck. Is my dog perfect? Heck no, far from it, and i'm ok with that.