E collar whoa

stickslinger · Post by **stickslinger** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:30 pm

I've got a training question I could use a little help with.

I've got a one year old GSP that I've been working with. I've been using a mixture of George Hickox training method and the Delmar Smith method.

The Hickox method has you using an e collar on the flank as your point of contact. I also recently had a private lesson with a local trainer and he uses the same method with the e collar around the flank.

My question and concern is, If you don't run your dog for the rest of its hunting life with the e collar on the flank, at some point you will lose your point of contact. Is the risk of ruining your dog by using the collar on the neck, because he thinks the bird caused the stimulation, really great enough to lose the advantage of always having your point of contact for all you commands on the neck?

Has this happened with enough dogs that everyone feels it's necessary or is it just maybe with dogs with a soft personality?

I collar conditioned my pup for about three months before I ever used it, originally thinking that I would not use it on the flank I never put it there. I started her on whoa using some conventional methods and she's doing well just not perfect and we haven't tried it on birds yet. I'm just concerned about not having her conditioned enough to use it on her flank now that we're right at a critical time in the learning process as well as eventually losing that point of contact.

So how critical is it and do any of you enforce and train the whoa command using the e collar just around the dogs neck?

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:45 pm

use the collar on teh neck on the lowest setting to reinforce whoa with no birds around. if he is standing still try to get him to move by throwing something. if he takes a step nick him. since there are no birds aroiund durin g this time when you do get him on birds he will know the nick had nothing to do with the bird from the yard work he did already. also make sure he has had at least one season on wild birds to build this desire to hunt birds too. this shows him also the birds wont hurt him.

by the way where do you go to hunt birds being in Lousiana?? i am in houston and i have a long drive as it is. it must be long for you too

stickslinger · Post by **stickslinger** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:03 pm

I started using the collar on her neck with good results, no birds around, and while she has always had the collar on when I've worked her on birds I have never used it. I just moved the collar when on birds to her flank on the advice of the trainer. Now I'm second guessing for the reasons stated above.

I'm thinking a collar on the neck will work fine if done properly, which is like you said, I start on the lowest setting that she reacts to.

We have a few wild birds around here but not many. Quail and some occasional woodcock. I'm not yet sure where I'm going to take her yet to get her in a lot of wild birds, thinking that will probably be next year before she's really ready. If you're a one dog hunter looking for a partner to work your dog with next hunting season I'd be interested if you'd like some company. I usually make it to TX at least once a year and actually just got back from Del Rio after sheep and goats.

My goal is to make her a versatile gun dog. Thanks to running her with some labs when she was young, she's a great water retriever and we have plenty of ducks. She's starting to figure out squirrell hunting (I know that might be sacriledge to some of you die hard bird hunters). And after I get her pointing well I intend to teach her to do some blood trailing as I do a lot of bow hunting for deer around here and hogs in TX.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:27 pm

wow that is a versatile hunter if i ever seen one. i guess i am naive when it comes to expecting a bird dog to hunt all that too. i wonder if you can still have a dog that is steady to wing and shot on birds and still chase deer, squirells, hogs, and anything else

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:17 pm

1000'S of dogs have been trained whoa with a E around there neck. The flank thing is a new thing compared to the E. It is also new that Hickox is doing it this way. He used to use it around the neck for whoa. I tried the flank thing and did not see any advantage IMO. I use it on the neck for everything.

stickslinger · Post by **stickslinger** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:52 am

Well I don't really intend for her to "chase" the deer and the hogs, just to follow a blood trail. And that may be overly optimistic but I have read of people that do that with their dogs.

So far she seems to que of my commands pretty well. When I start telling her "birds" she starts hunting head up looking for birds. When I tell her "look for it" or "dead" she starts hunting more with her nose down looking for something on the ground. I stumbled on that when we were playing fetch in my dark back yard one night and she missed seeing where the dummy went down. I'd call her back, cast her off with the command "fetch" and everytime she seemed like she wanted to come back to me I'd point and tell her to "look for it". Now she knows when I start telling her to look for it that she needs to keep looking and start using her nose. I did a similar drill with a dead pigeon I'd drag through the yard after showing it to her and then casting her and giving commands.

Now I don't really intend to work the blood trailing thing as anything more than a game until I have her pointing well. And I really think that the hardest thing I'll ever have to teach her will be to hold still in a duck blind, because if she's awake, she's moving!

But, thanks for the advice, I'm thinking I'll keep the collar around her neck. Anyone have any negative experiences with that?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:56 am

Transition from flank to neck slowly and as suggested start this OFF of birds and on low levels...if you have a two dog model transitioning is a bit easier as you start to say whoa and stimulate the neck then quickly switch to flank..this is where i like my sportdog collar I can set the collars to go off with the same button for the transition where i have light stimulation at neck and flank at the same time...but i was still able to get the same thing accomplished by the above method of neck to flank ..If your dog wants to come to you set them back where you told the whoa or stimulated for whoa...be calm about setting back as the dog will be confused the first time...But in the long run I have found the e collar on the flank for whoa for starters has been better..Rick Smith Delmars son teaches the whoa post so that the e collar on the flank means the same thing through a half hitch method....I like his method way better the the old methods of pinch collar on the neck and the whoa post dog respond to this method WAY better from what I have seen since learning this method...

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:23 am

Reading thru this I would like to take a different view. I don't recommend a new trainer using the ecollar around birds period. Teach the dog with the CC what you want. I don't like using the E with birds on the ground AT ALL. Only after the birds are in the air. I have used the E on the rear for years and it is believed to be a safer way to give a nick around birds to not get the dog blinking. It is touchy using the E for Whoa in front of birds no matter what experience you may or maynot have, thats why I don't think it should be used. I do not train Whoa with the E period, I teach Whoa then teach a dog how to stand their birds like I want, then I may or maynot use the E to reinforce what I have taught the dog, depending on the individual dog. I always use the E when the birds are in he air, only after the dog has been taught with the CC (TO REPEAT) not while the dog is on point.....

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:04 am

Right on Brenda

Ezzy