dog moves in stop to flush situation

[blanked]

my dog will move a few feet sometimes but I think it is cause he is trying
to keep the bird in view due to the higher cover that we will be next to.
if i think this is the case should i still correct him with the ecollar? or just if he starts an all out chase?

[ssjetset]

stop to flush for a BROKE dog means STOP! No steps at all, the dog can turn to mark the bird but thats it. If you plan on having a completly broke dog then correct him, after he moves hit the collar and leave it on untill you place him back where the flush happened and THEN remove the stimulation. You need to be consistant if you want a finnished dog, good luck.

[Yawallac]

I believe that a dog that is marking a bird down should be allowed to adjust his position slightly. A step or quick turn to mark is ok as long as that is what he is doing. Be sure that you know what he is doing.

[Wagonmaster]

A move to mark on a bird that is pointed, flushed, and shot - or at least shot at, is fine. The dog is expecting to retrieve and needs to have an idea of where the bird is. However, when it comes to stop to flush, no movement should occur. A good deal of the time the dog has already made a mistake, crowded a bird resulting in a flush - in reality a stop to bump. Even when the stop to flush is legitimate, there is no reason for the dog to move, and reason for it not to move. The stop to flush serves a couple of functions, one, it gives the dog a behaviour that is better than chasing if there is a wild flush. But two, and the most important one, is that the dog that stops to flush is not going to disturb other birds that are in the area, and gives the hunter a chance to get in on the action.

The problem with "just a few steps" in the hunting situation is that those steps can flush more birds, which is bad in and of itself, but if more birds come up it is more likely a partly broke dog will unravel.

But when you hunt, nobody is watching over your shoulder. If you want the dog to move, then let it. If you don't care about the stop to flush then don't train. I have one dog that is dead broke and stops to flush cleanly. I have another that doesn't so much stop to flush as decline to chase too far. I love em both and they both produce alot of birds. The one that stops to flush is better in those multiple bird situations though.

[Hotpepper]

John is correct, "What are you training to accomplish?"

If the objective is trialing, any movement will get you beat. If it is a hunting situation, it will cost you more birds that you do not get a chance to shoot at. That can get into other problems for the dog and trainer.

In trialing, any movement; turn to mark, extra steps, etc is not good and just moves you down the list. The book says it should be looked at "most critically."
Pepper

The broker the dog is, the better the hunting situation and safety for all.

Pepper

[Yawallac]

Sorry, I assumed from reading the post that this was a "hunting" situation and the bird was downed. Once the dog stops-to-flush he has to stop. Are you talking about a trial situation where the flushed bird is not shot or are you talking about a hunting situation?

BTW, in a NAVHDA test the handler has the discretion if he wants stop-to-flush birds shot or not. He simply instructs the gunners how to handle that situation prior to entering the field portion of the test. In that situation if the dog stops-to-flush properly and the bird is shot the dog would be allowed the same latitude as far as marking is concerned as if he had pointed the bird.

[Wagonmaster]

That is interesting. When hunting my trial dog I do not shoot anything not pointed. In order to keep him broke. But the stop to flush is very helpful because where we hunt there are almost always other birds around, and virtually all his stops to flush are on real wild flushes, birds getting up just out of gun range cause they are skittish. We have had several situations where he gets in an area that has a bunch of birds, some wild ones start to go out, and he stops. There are always more around, and we clean up on those.

With my girl hunting dog, anything that flies dies. She does not do a true stop to flush, but she does decline to chase.

[blanked]

yes this is hunting only. so if a bird flushes in a stop to flush and flies over teh dogs head he should not turn around and reposition himself to watch the birds??

[Wagonmaster]

When I hunt, and am "in birds," if I take a shot, I never move one single foot or say a word to a partner before I reload. The reason is that if there are other birds around the slightest movement or sound will flush them. They may flush anyway. But this is a practice I have developed through years of experience hunting many different species. I can't tell you how many times that first single step caused the rest to go up before I was reloaded and ready. When you are in among em and something has happened, there has been a flush or a shot, the less movement or sound the better.

The only exception I make is if there is a wounded bird downed on the first shot and it is running or about to run. Bird in the hand is worth ten "possibles" in that situation.

The reason I mention this practice is that it shows how volatile the situation is when you and/or the dog are suddenly "in among em." Any move or sound can cause the rest to go. And sometimes with the stop to flush, the dog is doing it out of gun range, so you would rather it not disturb any more birds until you have a chance to get to it.

I don't see any purpose in a move to mark at that stage because the dog has no retrieve to make, and on the other hand, the move to mark may just be the small trigger that causes the rest to go.

The ideal situation is for the dog not to move at all. And indeed, my trial dog, well trained by pros, will move his head and eyes, but nothing more. He is just exceptional when we are "in among em," and some start to go prematurely. This has resulted in us getting birds we would not have gotten with another dog.

But this is the ideal, it is very hard to keep hunting dogs to an ideal. And nobody is watching over your shoulder, so if you want to let em move to mark you go ahead and do it. What is more important is that your dog pleases you. Nobody else counts in that situation.

[Yawallac]

I agree. The only caveat is when you are in gun range and you actually take the shot and down a bird. I will accept a dog marking a fall after the report of the gun, but not before. John is exactly right about anticipating additional flushes, particularly down here in Bob country. It happens all the time because many times, particularly while the covey is spread out and feeding, many wild birds will not flush initially. Being ready for that will put more birds in the bag.

[Margaret]

yes this is hunting only. so if a bird flushes in a stop to flush and flies over teh dogs head he should not turn around and reposition himself to watch the birds??

Certainly the dog should do this, watch the bird.