when to steady your dog?

littleking · Post by **littleking** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:22 pm

addie just turned 1 yesterday, currently my trainer is working on steadying her. (to wing and shot)

is this the right thing to do? is this personal opinion?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:03 pm

I wouldn't even consider breaking her before she has had at least one hunting season under her belt. My schedule will say not before a dog is at least 2.

But it depends what you want from your dog. I think when you train too young you tend to get a robot and not an exciting dog that thinks. And I will be the first to admit that is exactly what many people want. Personally I'll trade a couple of busted birds for a point at full speed. Takes my breath away to see a dog switch ends in mid-air.

Ezzy

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:17 pm

It depends. On many things, how much training and exposure to birds the dog has had up to this point. How much actual maturity as opposed to chronological maturity it has shows. On how good and light handed the trainer is.

We started to break my current trial dog at about that age, about 14 months. "We" means the trainer said he thought it was a good time, and having watched him run and knowing the trainer, I said go ahead. But at that point in time the dog had all his field trial puppy and derby points, had a couple of seasons of running in trials, and had serious and extensive exposure to wild birds, as well as a personality that suggested he would take well to the training. I also knew that the trainer was very good, and would back off right away if it seemed to be too early. I made sure to tell him he could do that, so he did not at any time feel he had to prove anything to me once he started to break the dog.

If the dog has lived at home and you have not been able to expose it to birds virtually daily, then breaking the dog would not be a good idea right now. Getting it staunch - points and holds point while the handler flushes, is about as far as I would go at that age.

Point is, there are prodigies and early maturing dogs. But what works for one does not work for all. Better that your dog gets a little patience and opportunity to grow up if it has not had alot of training and bird exposure already.

PS all of the above means that I agree with ezzy, I just talk more.

NE Vizsla · Post by **NE Vizsla** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:50 pm

I think if the dog is mature enough for it then it is a good idea, especially if your gonna run her with other broke dogs.

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:40 pm

If your trainer is light-handed, you certainly can start steadying your dog at this age. I started with Justus right away. A few times with birds in launchers I let him chase. Then, I started holding him from chasing with the check cord. Eventually he quit pulling, but he never lost the desire... he just learned that he was better off staying put until I released him. Talk about an explosion when I did!

But, a difference may be that I never really had to come down on Justus. He just sort of complied from the get-go. Same thing happened with the woah command. I still swear that my dog learned most of his commands by watching dog training videos with me. Therefore, as Greg says, your mileage may vary.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:55 pm

I agree with ayres. I started to steady my pup at 7 months and he did just fine.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:59 am

It really depends on the method. The checkcord thing ayers talked about is what I do. I don't let my dogs chase ever. I alway stop with a checkcord. I will let them run to the end of it when gun beaking, or when working on pointing I let them try to take the bird out. When thats done and the dog is gun broke and point steady I stop them right away. I don't use any commands I just stop them and they are fine with it.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:21 am

I've seen far too many dogs that trainers broke at a young age, under 18 months, that came unglued later, say over 5 or so. A dog needs to have seen tons of birds, be confident in its search and bold in its hunting style, needs to be mature in mind, AND always needs at least one good hunting season before he is ready for breaking IMHO. The falacy of letting them be pups making them tougher to break is untrue, if the right things are done with them while they are young. Tons of birds does not mean tons of pen birds or lousy flying birds, but tons of strong flyers they can't catch preferably wild.

I know of one well known pro trainer who breaks all dogs at around 8 months. He has a few good ones, but far too many that never make it. WHY? IMHO, 'cause he breaks them too early.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:38 am

8 months is just too young period.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:10 am

I wanted to add, started to steady, Not breaking, and nothing to hard on him.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:22 am

littleking, is it possible there is just a misunderstanding here? in common dog trainer vernacular, steadying is usually used to refer to getting the dog to stand its birds and hold until the flush. that would be age appropriate for your dog. the term for steadying to wing and shot that is used in the vernacular, is to break the dog or to make the dog broke. that is what people are having a problem with in so far as the age or your dog is concerned. so could it be your trainer just means to get the dog to stand its birds and hold?

I know an awful lot of people understand "point birds and hold to the flush" as "staunch." then stages after that as "steady" but usually the terminology is "steady to" something, like steady to wing, or steady to wing and shot. an awful lot of trainers just use "steady" alone to mean the same thing as "staunch"

ask your trainer if in doubt.

spankey · Post by **spankey** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:02 pm

Last night I started checking my pup and she is 17 weeks. All I did was tug on the check, got down on her level, gently grabbed her collare to keep her head up and applied a little pressure on her tail end to get her to stand. Hopefully everyone knows what im talking about.
She responded wonderfully in the short amount of time we did this and actually started stopping on her own after a bit, at that point training was over and I let her run.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:16 pm

So, were there birds involved? Were you letting her point birds on her own, are you teaching her a form of whoa, or are you teaching her to purely "stand" her birds? I may not be understanding what you are doing here.

spankey · Post by **spankey** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:27 pm

I guess you can call it a form of pre whoa and standing. I/my buddy would check her every so often, staunch her up and the give her some praises and eventually walked her into a launcher.
Now I want to train her to be staunch at first scent, so I blew the bird upon her smelling and went throught the check process i just described... this was her first time doing this and it worked out very well.
I know its a bit early to some, but it teaches basic lessons on different levels.

Mo · Post by Mo » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:19 pm

Each dog is different... I have been training dogs for the public for a long time... Just because the owner thinks the dog is ready to break don't make it so.. The dog will show the trainer when it is ready to break... My thinking is alot like Trueblu's.. I like young dogs that are bold, happy and independent.. When they hunt and know where to look for birds then it is normally getting close to time to start breaking them.. I have seen alot of young dogs that manners wise they were broke and some of them looked pretty good.. None of them hunted a lick though IMO.. They were very dependent on the owner or trainer for directions.. Each person has to decide what the best course is with the dog, then live with the results..

Mo

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:39 pm

Well TrueBlu and WM, you've both said that it's just too young to break a dog at this age, but then we're lost in the terminology of "staunch," "steady" and "broke." So why don't you clarify what you mean by these terms and which you believe is age appropriate? Certainly you don't mean to criticize everyone who has started training a dog at 8 months of age, right?

And TrueBlu, when you say that you've seen too many dogs that are steadied at a young age and then come unglued when over 5 years old, are you sure there weren't other factors involved? Can you really say that the cause of a dog coming unglued at that age was because it was trained when it was younger? Heck, if that's the case then I know a bunch of dogs who are just explosions waiting to happen apparently.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:00 pm

If I had a dog that was not bold and a bird machine and tearing up the field then that would change the way I go about breaking young. Most my dogs are bird crazed and pointing steady at a young age. A softer slower type of dog I would not break and would wait and also let it chase. The purpose would be to bring the prey drive and desire up.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:04 pm

ayres, read my post above, i did clarify. :roll: these are all terms that are used differently by different people, so the better question is, what did our original poster's trainer mean when he said he wanted to "steady" the dog.

no, neither Blake nor I were being critical of anyone who wanted to start training a dog at 8 months, or at 8 weeks for that matter. the question is, what exactly is the trainer trying to accomplish with it at 8 months, or at 8 weeks?

on that, I am asking our original poster if he wants to maybe get some clarification from his trainer. because a lack of understanding of what the trainer is actually saying may be the issue. as I said in my earlier post, many trainers use the term "to steady" to essentially mean to make a dog staunch, not to make the dog broke. our original poster was describing making the dog broke.

also read Blake's post. he neither criticized anyone who "started training a dog at 8 months of age" as you put it, nor did he say that dogs "that are steadied at a young age" can come unglued. Those are your words, not his. Blake used the term "broke." "Broke" means completely steady to wing, shot, fall, does not go until sent, stops to flush, and backs. You try to pack all that in a dog by 8 months, which was Blake's point (and the kind of training our original poster was describing), and you will indeed have an overtrained dog that will come unglued.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:23 pm

The original poster is talking just wing and shot.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:59 pm

Why does TruBlu always get the third degree? There might be some factors there might not. If anyone else would have said it you would have thought yes a good percentage of dogs do lose intensity when there broke to early and let it go.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:32 am

littleking, our original poster, said: "currently my trainer is working on steadying her (to wing and shot)."

It is too early at 8 months to steady a dog to wing and shot, which is training to break the dog - make it broke. If you don't believe me, or Blake, go with ezzy who said it first.

In fact, it is so out of the ordinary that I think those of us who have made that comment wonder what the trainer is thinking if he has in mind to start to break a dog at 8 months.

Now, what dawned on me, with that background, is littleking's manner of expression. Maybe the part the trainer is saying is that he (the trainer) wants to "steady the dog." Maybe the added parenthetical ("to wing and shot)" is littleking's understanding of what the trainer means by "to steady." Perhaps the trainer is saying he wants to "steady the dog up" which in trainer parlance usually just means making it steadier around its birds, make it hold point once it goes on point. And maybe littleking is thinking the trainer means to start to break the dog, make it steady to wing and shot.

There now. Alot of words to just ask if littleking perhaps wants to clarify with the trainer what the trainer means to do with the dog.

littleking · Post by **littleking** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:51 am

im waiting to hear back from the trainer, i may be mixed up on my vernacular.

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:37 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:ayres, read my post above, i did clarify. :roll: these are all terms that are used differently by different people, so the better question is, what did our original poster's trainer mean when he said he wanted to "steady" the dog.

Woah, woah, woah. John, calm down. My post above wasn't supposed to sound sarcastic because it was really sincere. If it did sound sarcastic, I apologize. I was trying to elicit more information.

I know that Blake has a good program with proven dogs. The way he answered the question, and the way you answered the question, in fact, made it hard to understand what sort of advice you were giving in light of the original poster's question. Like I said, we were getting lost in the terminology because the OP said "steady," then Blake said "broke" and then you came in and threw in "staunch" into the party. I just wanted a clarification of what the advice was really for. And as you found out, what "the kind of training" that littleking was describing still may or may not be "broke" as you define it.

And, John, you've always done a good job of breaking things down into an organized fashion. But this time in your post you didn't clarify what you mean by each of the terms you noted, only what some trainers mean. And you didn't really break it down to what you believe is appropriate for what age. If by "some trainers" you meant to include yourself, that's fine. It just sounded like you were talking about a third party, and not how you define things.

Now when I used the word "criticize" I did that intentionally because Blake's post and your post condemning starting a dog at 8 months came after ohiogsp and I both posted that we used checkcords to stop the dog from chasing, which, in turn, steadied the dog on remote release traps. I would also use a blank gun when doing this, and my dog never learned to break on the shot. Maybe you "steady," "staunch," or "break" a dog differently so as to not apply to the way ohiogsp and I trained our dogs. But, to me, it sounded a lot like both you and Blake were criticizing ohiogsp and myself for how and when we trained. If not, all it would take is a clarification, not coming off the hinges. I've not known you to be a "this is the only answer" type of guy, so I was a little taken aback at the way your post sounded to me. That's why I posted to clear the air.

GsPJustin wrote:Why does TruBlu always get the third degree? There might be some factors there might not. If anyone else would have said it you would have thought yes a good percentage of dogs do lose intensity when there broke to early and let it go.

Well Justin, nice of you to add something substantial to the conversation. :roll: I've not known Blake to get the third degree, nor have I known anyone on this forum specifically targeted to 'get the third degree.' If there were other factors involved, then they should be likewise presented so as to not make anyone have a misconception. For instance, I met the lady who finished the youngest record AKC Master Hunter this year, at somewhere between 6 and 7 months of age. (For the record, I likewise think that training a dog through MH level at that age takes something out of it, though not necessarily causing it to fall apart later) I'd like to know if Blake really thought that such a dog is doomed to come unglued in a few years. I don't really think he meant it that way, because there's always a lot of factors when something like that happens. I think it just came across wrong. But I may be wrong, so I asked.

And if it was anyone else making the statement you can bet I'd still be asking for a clarification. Asking questions is what I do when I don't understand something or someone's position on something. So, Justin, I don't think you're very qualified as to make a statement of how I would think, thank you very much.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:05 am

Man, I've been gone a few days and all heck "broke" loose. Just had to say that Steven. I am not dooming any dog to absolutely come unglued at any age due to any type of training. I have SEEN dogs that were broke at 8 months who came unglued. SOME did just fine, but IMHO were less of dogs due to the early breaking. A dog, at 8 months, needs to be hunted, need to learn to use the wind and objectives, needs birds, on and on and on. FEW are mature enough to be taught whoa, broke on birds, had much field obedience put on them UNLESS they have had an opportunity to mature, be hunted, etc. 8 month old dogs are PUPPIES. I prefer dogs that are bold, independent, search to find birds on their own, take me to birds, are not robotic in any way. There are NO abolutes in training. All dogs are different. Some need to be started in the breaking process at a young age, 12 to 15 months, but few are ready at 8 months IMHO.

I didn't feel attacked by Steven, but he posted valid questions.

Steven, the dogs that I have bred are usually independent, hunting hard, are gun conditioned, are bold, etc. by this age, but I prefer to see them have a year of hunting under their belt before headed down the breaking path. I start pups on whoa at 6 or 7 months of age, they already know KENNEL, name, NO, etc. I have the somewhat unique ability to put young dogs on hundreds of coveys on bobs each year so my "training" is skewed toward hunting on wild birds versus obedience. The birds teach 'em.

Please don't assume I am saying ALL dogs will be ruined by any method of training, nor that I know much compared to many. But, in 35 years of bird hunting and the last 8 of trialing and following good trainers around I have picked up a few thoughts that may be unique to only me. I give my opinion from personal experience, from what has happened with dogs I have had the opportunity to put my hands on. I'm a huge fan of SLOW and not ruining dogs.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:34 am

TrueBlu wrote:Man, I've been gone a few days and all heck "broke" loose.

I appreciate the humor!

Ok, I think I understand what you're talking about now. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree that a dog should be broke early either, and I know from experience how much maturity makes a difference in a dog. My own dog really flipped a switch at 20 months old and told me he was ready to continue training with the foundation I had laid down. But I did start laying that foundation with a checkcord and a shut mouth (no barking commands at him) around six to eight months old. I assume by your description that's somewhat how you start out as well, teaching basic commands and laying a foundation long before really starting to demand compliance.

...nor that I know much compared to many. But, in 35 years of bird hunting and the last 8 of trialing and following good trainers around...

With that kind of experience I sure think you probably know what you're talking about. That's why I asked so I could understand better what you meant.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:29 pm

Like anything on the net Steven, it is near to impossible to convey exactly what you are trying to say, explain techniques, and give thoughts without being misread, misinterpreted, etc. I would bet we are pretty close in our thoughts, but it is often hard to not get lost in translation on a forum.

My main "training technique"is putting them on tons of wild birds and keeping my mouth shut.