E collar dilemma?

[zigzag]

I would like some input from those who have used or not used an E coller. This is my current scenario, I have a Vizsla pup 8 month old male. To date he has been very mild mannered and what some would call a soft dog. He does cowerd when I get hard on him, I rarely do that. We have trained on trapped pigeons and flight raised Quail. Ruger and I have been under the guidance of a professional bird dog trainer for the last 4 months. Ruger is gun conditioned and has experince pointing and holding birds. I just dont know if I want to go with an E collar. His recall is great, except there is failure in the bird field at times. He handles well for a puppy, I spend 3hrs a day walking bonding training. My biggest fear is having a dog that NEEDS the E collar to respond to commands. Any input experince on this would be greatly appreciated.

[kninebirddog]

The manner in how an e collar is used is the most important thing....I use the Rick Smith Method of teaching and using the e collar and find specially those "softer" dog to respond very well to the cues when needed from an e collar ...

This is a link to how I approach the E Collar http://www.kninebirddog.com/understandi ... ollar.html

[sniperjon]

Yes I agree it's how the collar is used. I have a soft pup and have started with a collar. Just find a program that will work for a soft fog

[Ralph Ford]

If you are working with a pro, let him show you where and how to use e-collar. Softer dogs and e-collars can lead to ruined dogs pretty quick. Unless you like your dog hiding under the truck, or walking under your feet. Proceed with caution.

[cjhills]

The Perfection Kennels program is very good for using a e-collar on this type of dog. More fun and less pressure is great. No need for pressure at 8 months. Any reasonably intelligent dog eventually gets collar wise. Try not to give a command you can't inforce

[4dabirds]

If the e-collar is used as avoidance training the dog is trained to avoid stimulation by complying to the command. If the dog is a soft dog he will be more apt to comply. With this method the dog learns he can turn the stimulation off by complying to the command. With this method the dog is in control of the situation and is going to exhibit the behavior that is best for himself. The problem I see you having is that your dog has been able to run without having a collar on until this point. This may lead you to believe that the dog is able to understand more than it does. If you feel it is necessary to use the collar you should take it very slowly ,first running the dog with the collar on for a few months with out turning it on. This will make a positive association with the collar in the dogs mind. He will run to you when you show him the collar because he will know it is time to have fun. With this method the collar is only used for non compliance and is only used on commands that the dog has been trained on and will respond to 8 out of 10 times. George Hickox has a good explanation of this method on his D.V.D. Good luck

[kninebirddog]

Again..A collar can be used as a cue like a leash or it can be used in other manners which will not be good for dogs that learn how to shut down as a form of escaping what they do not want to do...

Learn the different ethods and thought processes that people put behind a E collar...With using it like a lead/leash/check cord I easily will use the e collar on young dogs as they know what the cue means when needed ..they do not fear it at all

[zigzag]

If I could add one more question to this post, What is a good collar choice considering my Vizsla is showing signs of being sensitive? I have narrowed my search to tri tronics collars only at this point. My first pick is the G3 classic 70 comes in at 319.00, my concern is it has only 6 levels of continous stim. Anyone with this collar care to comment on those stim levels? I like the tone only feture of this collar I also like that I could add a beeper later, its also at the very top of my price range. If I was to go with more stim options I would be steping down in price to one of the sport collar models with 1/2 mile range. I would appreciat any input you may have. Thanks again for the helpful suggestions, I will be puting the collar on him for the next month or so in the off postion.

[birddogger]

6 stim levels are plenty and it is actually 12 because there should be a setting between each number. The first setting will be low enough that it can barely be felt, if at all, and the highest setting will be strong enough that it would only be needed for trash breaking, if needed at all. Hope this helps.

Charlie

[gotpointers]

I have the DT 2420 it has a rise feature and also a tone, i find i rarely need to stimulate the dog. The tone button usually gets their attention.

[4dabirds]

keep in mind that more levels of stimulation does not mean more stimulation it means exactly the opposite. Every dog will feel stimulation at a different level. The more levels you have the the closer you can get to the lowest level that the dog feels.The lowest level is the level you would introduce the collar at.

[bossman]

If you plan to hunt wild birds, I would not be without an e collar. If for no other reason, to control your dog if it gets on some "undesirable" game...deer,etc. Once all yard work has been done and the dog is on its way to being "finished", it is unquestionably the most important tool we have to enforce our commands if needed, imo.It must be used properly..Good luck.

[gonehuntin']

All the levels on the new collars are for the trainers benefit, not the dogs. A dog will adapt to any level of stimulation if administered my a competent trainer.

As Charlie says, six is plenty. I trained hundreds and hundreds on the old 70's without a problem. One level of stimulation.

In my view, I can train a softer dog more quickly and more thoroughly with the ecollar than without it. There is no such thing as too soft a dog to tolerate the ecollar.

[ultracarry]

The classic 70 by TT does not have any other button for stimulation then the one that is for the specific collar so it only has 6 levels. I have found 6 to be enough for any dog. You almost baby heck the difference between one and two (stim). There is a noticeable difference between one and three .... Etc.

After owning 4 collars and having a variety of stimulation levels, buttons, etc. I have made more mistakes with the ones that had more things going on. I have no need for a "nick" , page, or medium or low setting. All I need is my finger on the only button for the dog.

If you have 127 levels, the dog won't be able to tell a 5 from a 15, 112 from a 117 etc so its not needed and more for the user to get caught up in.

Use a pinch collar and let him wear the ecollar until you believe he is ready.

[DonF]

All the levels on the new collars are for the trainers benefit, not the dogs. A dog will adapt to any level of stimulation if administered my a competent trainer.

As Charlie says, six is plenty. I trained hundreds and hundreds on the old 70's without a problem. One level of stimulation.

In my view, I can train a softer dog more quickly and more thoroughly with the ecollar than without it. There is no such thing as too soft a dog to tolerate the ecollar.

One level and a one sec delay. Da*n I hated those things!

[Ron R]

The tone button usually gets their attention.

I have never used the tone setting . My tone before the shock is my whistle .

[zigzag]

ok this is reassuring info thank you all for the replys. I was thinking that all the stim levels and diffrent buttons were kinda rediculus. I just wanted to be sure this collar would have a low enough range for my dog to make the proper transition, sounds like it will be ok. And I will not not have to worry about reliability or quality with the Tri tRONICS. Hopefully one day I will be able to help a rokie out on this forum, you all have been an encouaging resource for me.

[Hattrick]

Alot of guys use the tone as a come comand not as a warning. I do too

[Hattrick]

I forgot to mention i would go with the 90 over the 70.

[zigzag]

I forgot to mention i would go with the 90 over the 70.

the only diffrence I see is momentary stim. Its just slightly out of my reach in price.

[RayGubernat]

zigzag -

I find that use the momentary stim a whole lot more than the continuous. I have an old Flyway Special that has 6 levels of continuous and the same six levels of momentary but with two buttons for momentary so you can administer 1/3 level with one button, 2/3 level with the second button and the full level when both buttons are pushed at the same time.

I find that I can get a dog's attention VERY quickly(even at a very low level) by pressing the two momentary buttons in rapid succession.

Check out Collar Clinic. They often have refurbished units for a significant discount.

You can mimic the momentary by tapping the continuous button, but, like anything else, that takes some getting used to. The momentary units make delivering a single instantaneous pulse a snap.

I am kinda partial to the tritronics design and am very used to the feel of the unit. I use a sling when training and carry harness adjusted so that my hand falls right on the buttons. I find that with only 1 button for continuous stim and 2 buttons for momentary, I can keep my eyes on the dog and deliver the right stim at precisely the right time. The stim level adjustment is on top and I can feel the clicks with out looking if I need to go from a training stim to an off game avoidance stim.

I cannot do that with the DT unit I have as a spare.

RayG

[zigzag]

zigzag -

I find that use the momentary stim a whole lot more than the continuous. I have an old Flyway Special that has 6 levels of continuous and the same six levels of momentary but with two buttons for momentary so you can administer 1/3 level with one button, 2/3 level with the second button and the full level when both buttons are pushed at the same time.

I find that I can get a dog's attention VERY quickly(even at a very low level) by pressing the two momentary buttons in rapid succession.

Check out Collar Clinic. They often have refurbished units for a significant discount.

You can mimic the momentary by tapping the continuous button, but, like anything else, that takes some getting used to. The momentary units make delivering a single instantaneous pulse a snap.

I am kinda partial to the tritronics design and am very used to the feel of the unit. I use a sling when training and carry harness adjusted so that my hand falls right on the buttons. I find that with only 1 button for continuous stim and 2 buttons for momentary, I can keep my eyes on the dog and deliver the right stim at precisely the right time. The stim level adjustment is on top and I can feel the clicks with out looking if I need to go from a training stim to an off game avoidance stim.

I cannot do that with the DT unit I have as a spare.

RayG

Extremly helpful post thank you.

[birddogger]

The classic 70 by TT does not have any other button for stimulation then the one that is for the specific collar so it only has 6 levels.

Thanks for the clarification, I just assumed it probably had in between levels but 6 is plenty.

Charlie

[RayGubernat]

The classic 70 by TT does not have any other button for stimulation then the one that is for the specific collar so it only has 6 levels.

Thanks for the clarification, I just assumed it probably had in between levels but 6 is plenty.

Charlie

The selector for stim levels is one of the things I really like about the Tritronics. There is a positive click for each level and I too believe that 6 levels is enough for a dog. In all the years I have used it, I have yet to have the selector accidentally move of the setting I put it on. I cannot say that about my DT.

I will say this about the graduated levels on the DT... the ability to fine tune came in VERY handy when I was doing refresher training on ground tying. The horse reacted very differently with the collar around its neck, to a stim level of 4 notches above level one than it did to one notch below one. I personally could barely feel the 1.4 level stim on the back of my hand and could not tell the difference between that and the 0.9 level stim...but there is no question that the horse did. I had been told that a horse is much more sensitive to electric shock than a dog, but, as they say...seeing is believing. The ability to dial down the stim to a miniscule level was very helpful for working with the horse.

RayG
RayG