FF with vizslas

[LtsHnt]

what do yall think....my neighbor/friend has a 8 mo old vizssla...he isnt sure if Force fetch training is a good idea for the vizslas sensitive personality...any ideas or suggestions..maybe experiences with FF and vizslas...any help would be great thanks! cheers.

[phermes1]

I had my Vizsla force-fetched last year when she was 3 with phenomenal results. I don't think there's anything about the breed that would make force-fetching a bad idea. Provided it was done correctly by a competent trainer.
Brenda/Snips would be a good person to talk to.

[birddog1968]

nope no problem forcing V's, I would question doing it at 8 months old tho, unless the dog is nice a bird crazy and mentally tough. Usually you force a birddog after it gets a season of pointing birds under its belt.

[Greg Jennings]

I force fetched my V myself. He's did extra well. I think his typical V desire to please made it an easier process.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ltshnt,
Nothing wrong with FFing a V dog, if you like FF. My self I use other training methods starting when the gun dogs are pups, each to his own methods.
RGD/Dave

[LtsHnt]

what meathods are you currently using...good results?

[bwjohn]

I do not know most people's protocol, but when ff my vizsla, after each training session I just play fetch with him and have fun. My dog has a pretty good fetch drive anyway, I just want it to be 100%. But I find that it really keeps his attitude up to just play with him at the end of each session.

some may not like it, but that is what I do with my dog.

brandon

[snips]

I would wait til the dog is at least 16-18 mo...

[RoostersMom]

My Vizsla is dead broke most days. I never needed to FF him, but I did use the table and work the "hold" command. That's all it took for him. I never needed to do anything more than that with him - he'll fetch anything I tell him to and won't drop it until I ask for it. He has a very compliant personality. I just felt no need to progress past the "hold" command with him because he is so dedicated to pleasing and LOVES to retrieve.

[Vman]

I just FF my 12mo. old pup. If you are going to do it, get Evan Grahams Smart Fetch and go slow and be sure the the pup has the lesson down pat before moving on too the next step. If you are going to have a Trainer do it, I would find someone that has FFd Vizslas before. The pups temperament is what you need to evaluate. Vizslas tend to mature slower than some other breeds.
8mo. is pretty young IMO. Get a hunting season under his belt first. If the dog can`t run,hunt,and hold a point for you, there is nothing to retrieve. Concentrate on all the work before the shot at this time. JMO.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

LtsHnt,
We use play training for both retrieving and swimming from very early puppy hood. Retrieving starts in a hall way where the pups can not escape, we use puppy toys and paint rollers with feathers so the pup understand and gets use to having feathers in his mouth. The swimming starts in as kiddie pool with one of us actually playing with the pup in the pool, as time goes on we add more water to the pool so the pup learns to swim, eventually the pup retrieves from the bottom of the kiddie pool when
something is thrown in the pool, we then move to the small streams and lakes, using a fully trained dog to institute an instinctive jealously retrieve, both on land and in the water. Just a quick over view but this is how we do our training for retrieving and swimming. I am a big believer in Genetics, if a dog is 2 years old and does not naturally retrieve, and hunt dead after our play training from an early age, the dog has a problem.
RGD/Dave

[LtsHnt]

thanks for all the help...very good advice and words of wisdom..i really like the last post..very interactive and makes training sound fun..i guess ill just have to wait and see what kind of dog i get...actually train the dog i see and not the dog i want to see.
thanks again

[northern cajun]

FF has nothing to do with bred I would FF a lab if I had it, have my mom's schnauzer FF'ed ,,,,.
I let em hunt a season then FF and break em.

[Vman]

Not saying that all dogs need to be FF, but it does do more than just teach the dog too retrieve on command. It will give you a more confident dog that will except other training better.
You can play with the pup as RGD has stated. That should be done whether you FF or not. The difference is that with an unFFd dog like his, he is asking the dog to retrieve, and hoping it does. If it doesn`t his hands are tied. Where with the FFd dog we are not asking the dog to retrieve, we are Commanding the dog too retrieve.
Good Luck!

[LtsHnt]

right....i agree with what your saying about FFing...just not looking forward to throwin the money down to have it done since i am first time dog owner and understand how its done but have NO experience, seems like FFing is more complex than sit stay come, or maybe im just a wuss ha.....i had labs growing up but never did much training with them and they were natural retrievers (imagine that, labs enjoying the retrieve)...anyway, i understand that the money is well worth it..thanks agian

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Northern Cajun,
Although 90% of all dog breeds can be FF trained, there are a few like the Ryman Setter who do not take at all well to it. The passive dominant Ryman
Setter, especially the male, will do the job you ask when FF trained, the dog however might hate the master after the training, and then never become the true companion hunter his Grouse hunting master desires. These Ryman dogs are not the same kind of hunting animal a dominant Versatile gun dog is, treating them in the same manner you would a GSP, Weimar, or a retriever such as a Lab or Chessie is a big mistake. In some cases the dog breed does matter greatly.
RGD/Dave

[Greg Jennings]

These Ryman dogs are not the same kind of hunting animal a dominant Versatile gun dog is, treating them in the same manner you would a GSP, Weimar, or a retriever such as a Lab or Chessie is a big mistake. In some cases the dog breed does matter greatly.
RGD/Dave

Dave, we're talking about Vizsla's here. They're people-oriented to the Nth degree.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Greg,
Roger that! Just wanted him to understand that there are some dogs that FF training works well on and others not so much.
Pine Creek

[gittrdonebritts]

Although 90% of all dog breeds can be FF trained, there are a few like the Ryman Setter

Generalizing by breed is stupid all dogs are individuals, when FF is done right it will work on any dog guarantee it.

[Buckeye_V]

Ryman - I have a pup that had to be FFed after everything happened you mentioned. There are exceptions. You can take the best bred, socialized pup out there and they can turn black-hearted in an instant.

The FF is especially helpful in competition, in my opinion. You can reinforce a command when they refuse - anywhere.

Brenda knows her stuff.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Buckeye,
You have missed the point, if after doing all the play training, a dog has to be FF to retrieve, the genetic imprint is lacking and the dog should not be bred futhering failed genetics. You can repetatively use an e-collar on sub quality bred dogs to make them perform also, better to breed high quality dogs that can instinctively work with the master as a companion hunting dog. Dogs have been repetitively bred down thru history to meet certain standards and to hunt in certain manners.
RGD/Dave

[birddog1968]

The wind is warm in here tonight

[northern cajun]

Northern Cajun,
Although 90% of all dog breeds can be FF trained, there are a few like the Ryman Setter who do not take at all well to it. The passive dominant Ryman
Setter, especially the male, will do the job you ask when FF trained, the dog however might hate the master after the training, and then never become the true companion hunter his Grouse hunting master desires. These Ryman dogs are not the same kind of hunting animal a dominant Versatile gun dog is, treating them in the same manner you would a GSP, Weimar, or a retriever such as a Lab or Chessie is a big mistake. In some cases the dog breed does matter greatly.
RGD/Dave

Ryman I have worked with very, very "soft" dogs before may take a tad longer but you can get them to do it ( no they were not all dominant Versatile dogs). I stand by my statement.

[Ruffshooter]

IMO FF is a good thing. Having brits that all but one were natrural retrievers and one that did not know it liked retrieving or did not understand (myfault) I ff them all. They all act out, they all act soft. The softest dogs turn more bold an confident. The harder dogs become more in tune with the handler.

FF is a the finish to a natural retrieve of more difficult and or perfect work (so to speak). It is the disipline that helps that dog understand to trust you that you did shoot somehting and that dog needs to find it no matter what. A FF dog compeletely understands its duty with no confusion.
Most dogs are natural retrievers. The FF cleans up sloppy retrieves, The ff cleans up the presentation. The ff helps the dog gets to its potential quicker.. The Pup that will be ff will be introduced and started just as Ryman GD (Dave) suggests or in a similar manner. If you will never duck, dove hunt or enter in competions. Then you may not need or want the ff. I have one that I did not do and it retrieves good for upland and visual marks of downed ducks, but thats it.

I know a guy who is a NAVHDA , senior judge and has very good dogs, he did not believe in ff. His dogs did very nice retrieving on upland game in tests etc. Never could get his dogs over a prize 2 UT. He went to Clyde training seminar. Clyde asked him if he ever had a prize one (knowing the answer). A little embarassed he begrudingly answered, no. Since that seminar this person has been ff his dogs, still breeding for the natural retrieving instinct. He has since got two or three Verisatile champions. The FF just brougt it all together.

As suggested, it is not for every one, not every one needs a dog to be at its top level, but every dog can benefit from ff if done properly. IMO

You decide what and how you wish to have a dog retrieve and if you will compete or duck hunt.
(Have GSP's also)

[Vman]

I am stuck in the office this morning because of rain so I will take time too comment.
RGD, first off read the title, "FF with Vizslas" He doesn`t have a Ryman and I doubt he really cares if your dogs cannot be FFd.

RGD wrote

You have missed the point, if after doing all the play training, a dog has to be FF to retrieve, the genetic imprint is lacking and the dog should not be bred futhering failed genetics.

You may be correct, but if you are breeding dogs so soft that can`t be FFd you have a genetic problem and I am sure the lack of mental stability will show up elsewhere in the training of the dog. This statement is meant for all breeds of hunting dogs not just he Rymans.

If you ask anyone that has FFd more than 20 dogs and ask them if they have seen improvement in the soft dogs confidence after a solid FF program and the answer will be YES. more often than No.
Sometimes these so called soft dogs are nothing more than smart and manipulative, and once they understand the gig is up they quit playing the I am a wuss game.
This is why in a previous thread I wrote.

The pups temperament is what you need to evaluate. Vizslas tend to mature slower than some other breeds.

I still stand by this statement.

[gittrdonebritts]

RGD

your talk of so called "failed" genetics is BS to me but if you really want to get into that I think breeding generations of soft "Ryman" Setters that can't have their trainer even raise their voice or they shut down is failed genetics, I have see even the most natural retrievers fail to finish a retrieve for many reasons, a good solid FF done right will do the trick every time in boosting a dogs confidence and making them become a better team player with you.