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[jtsgsps]

I have an 18 month old shorthair that has started flagging and creeping very bad on planted quail, she has only been exposed to pen raised birds and did have a pretty solid point, sometimes much more intense than others but nothing like she is doing now. She has her yardwork down very well, she is a little soft except when in the field and she is a rocket. Today I took her out she pointed the first bird nicely and the next 3 she flagged and crept in, almost like very unsure about the scent and needed to see the bird before pointing. I need some direction, she is a very well bred young dog. What should I do????? Thanks, Jim

[Ayres]

First of all, welcome to the forum, glad to have you here.

About the creeping and flagging, I can think of no better way to prevent that than with the use of remote release launchers. Read your dog, and when she hits the scent cone and starts to creep in, pop the bird. Don't fire a gun. Move her on. Eventually she will begin to understand that creeping = bird flush.

You can also use a check cord on her. When she hits the scent cone and starts moving in, gradually increase tension on the cord and do not let her creep in. This works best in combination with the remote release launchers.

Finally, does she know "woah?" If so, the checkcord method will work best by stopping her from moving and giving the woah command. That way she'll know that stopping is the correct response.

There's another thread around here somewhere that deals with this type of thing too, but I couldn't find it in a quick look-over. But if you look around the training section I'm sure you'll come across it. It contains several good methods of correcting that type of behavior, most of which are in agreement with the two mentioned above.

[GRIFF MAN]

I like to plant with launchers, if you have them, 3 birds all in the same area. When she gets scent launch the bird that is furthest away and if she doesn't stop yet launch the next and so on. This is so she will learn that with scent she needs to stop or she will flush other birds that she didn't know where around. When she does it right don't be afraid to shoot a blank and giver her a retrieve for a reward, but nothing if she does it wrong. Don't yell or anything just load them up and do it again. She will get the idea quick.

Griff

[Ryan]

I like to plant with launchers, if you have them, 3 birds all in the same area. When she gets scent launch the bird that is furthest away and if she doesn't stop yet launch the next and so on. This is so she will learn that with scent she needs to stop or she will flush other birds that she didn't know where around. When she does it right don't be afraid to shoot a blank and giver her a retrieve for a reward, but nothing if she does it wrong. Don't yell or anything just load them up and do it again. She will get the idea quick.

Griff

You could do it with one bird. Just CC her and as soon as she starts to creep launch that bird and stop her with the CC. this will save on birds and make it o you wont have to move your launchers every time you can spread them out.

[GRIFF MAN]

Ryan,

True, you could use a cc. But I want my dogs to want to stop for one reason and that is so not to flush a bird. If you cc you maybe teaching that dog that it only has to stop on scent when you have control of it. I would use a cc on a young dog early in the process, but Jim said he has done the yard work and the dog has pointed before.

I'm not saying your way wouldn't work, just telling my rationale for doing it my way.

Thats the fun thing about training we all have our own ways and the dogs are smart enough to learn even though we keep trying to screw things up.

griff

[Ryan]

But wouldnt you want the dog pointing everytime before you start making him stop to flush?

[GRIFF MAN]

But wouldnt you want the dog pointing everytime before you start making him stop to flush?

No the by flushing other birds when it creeps you aren't teaching the steady to flush..it maybe an indirect result but not the primary reason for the drill.
I just beleive that if you let the dog learn it with out our direct contact it will learn it better. Now remember I did say that the primary yard work needs to be done first and this is only a correction drill.

Griff

[Buckeye_V]

I've read this same tactic of popping the bird when they creep. i will use this on my dog as well. They move a muscle and the bird goes by-by. Don't say a word, just keep repeating (not necessarily in the same training session). Eventually they will learn.

Note: I have not actually been successful with this method. I will be applying it within the week on my own dog, so I will let you all know how it goes.

[jtsgsps]

I have 1 remote launcher, I can get a couple from friends. I understand the part about the dog creeps you pop the bird ( and hope the bird flies well enough to not be caught if you are without cc on the dog) I also am not opposed to her being steady to flush, I hope to run a few NSTRA trials with her next year, but will this stop the flagging? Thanks for your replies.. Jim

[Ayres]

I don't know of anything that you can really do to stop the flagging. In many cases it stops when the dog stops creeping and becomes more intense. On some dogs it will never stop happening.

[GRIFF MAN]

JIM,
I think of flagging and creeping as two different things. What I gave you is for a dog that is creeping, but is full of intensity. If your dog is flagging or not showing intensity or interest than that is a different solution.
Which one is she doing?

Griff

[Casper]

FWIW

Many people will also tell you that creeping and flagging are easily solved with enough wild bird contact.

Now you didnt disclose your location so Wild birds may not be available to you so the use of the remote launcher is a good plan of attack. Also many states close public grounds during the nesting season so it becomes hard to use wild birds during the summer months so in order to continue training we have to resort to other methods.

[jtsgsps]

Griff, she is very intense when she gets a good nose full or if she sees the bird. I took her out a couple of times to preserves and she held point very nicely, especially on those walking chukars, she stood like a rock... She finds the birds gets birdy sometime points very intense ( quivering intense) other times, more often now, she gets birdy , points while flagging, creeps in to the bird. I live in Indiana, pretty much no wild bird population. Thanks again, keep the info coming. Jim

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Most dogs can tell the difference between wild and pen raised birds. Pen raised just plain stink. Try using a variety of birds, beginning with trapped pigeons. The key it to not have too many and keep them in a place they can't get fouled with their own poop.

If you haven't already, work on whoa braking your dog. There was another thread concerning this.

[GRIFF MAN]

Jim,

What it sounds like is that she is what I call creeping and not what I call flagging. That creeping thing is not as big a deal as flagging.

Try the multiple planted birds and don't be afraid as soon as she looks like she has scent to launch that sucker. If you have to launch them all due it. Now of course it helps if you have pigeons that are homers saves $$. But even if you need to buy some its worth the money.

Have a dead bird in your pocket and when she holds thru it all give her the retrieve as the reward.Note..don't give her a retrieve every time she does it right just a few to start things out, also don't be afraid to have a check cord and to set her back where she got first scent if you had to launch the first bird. Put her back and then keep her there until you kick around and launch the other ones. Then let her go and reset the launchers and do it again.

I did this with my Belle and two other dogs last year and the owners where amazed how quick it works, but it does.
You'll be amazed how quick she will learn that by doing what you want she will get what she wants.

Griff

[jtsgsps]

Griff and others who helped here, I took her out today and planted a couple of quail ( in small wire cages hidden in the grass) put the launcher down with a piegon about 5 yards out let her go in she got birdy the first couple of times but creeped in and tail was in motion and she did not stop to point, popped the piegon, the bird flew away, after 3 birds she got it, she got scent, locked up solid, tail stiff as a board and I got in front of her and kicked like crazy, she stood great, I allowed 1 retrieve out of 4 to 5 good points... Thanks for the info, it worked, she is more confident and so am I. Jim

[GRIFF MAN]

Jim,

Hey great job !!! Give the pup a scratch for me

Everyone has there own way of doing it. You just have to take all the information and sort through it and then come up with your own method.

I'm glad that it worked. Don't be afraid to do it a few times then lay off for a while come back to it if she has problems. Once she has it don't take any thing less than perfection.

Good luck and send some pict. of that pup.

GriffMan

[NVgsp]

Jim-
sounds like you really accomplished what you were looking for. Just one question though: does your dog flag when it is locked solid on point, not creeping, but solid as a rock? Just curious.

[jtsgsps]

Griff, as soon as I figure out how I will post some pics of both my pup and my 2 1/2 year old as well. I will not accept less than perfection at this point ( no pun intended) ,as stated earlier she is a very well breed pup and I hope to run NSTRA with her when she is ready. I am running my male in a couple of weeks in his second one. Thanks again.

Chris, she does not flag at all when solid on point.

Jim

[jtsgsps]