Which Command in What Order?

[shootfor25]

Well, Trigg (GSP) is now 10 weeks...and from reading and talking to other "trainers"...there seems to be a common belief that 12 weeks is when the formal training should start. So first off....how many of you agree with the 12 week point as the best time to start formal training? Also...having browsed many different resources I am still trying to determine which commands to teach in what order. Some people say you should start with "SIT", while others say to never use "SIT" with a pointer. Then some say that "STAY" and "COME" should come next, followed by "WHOA".

As a newbie...I am just wanting to ensure that I start my pup off right to help him become a good bird dog....so any advice is welcome!

[ezzy333]

Let me ask what and when would you be teaching a mutt type puppy picked up at a shelter?

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Any dog that knows come and whoa can be hunted and is obedient. sit and down are just whoa's in other positions, they are just easier because the dog has to complete more steps to break the stay in the other positions so you can catch him easier. Whoa is stay, sit is stay, down is stay. I don't know what your definition of formal training or anyone elses so that is kind of difficult to answer. The reason people don't teach sit is because dogs sometimes revert to doing what they know in stressful situations and you don't want your dog sitting during the breaking process. Will your dog sit during the breaking process? Depends on how you teach sit, how you break the dog, your skills, and the dog. I wouldn't worry so much on commands. Get him waiting for for his food at supper time at the door when your going out etc..., teach him no or ahah, teach him go pee, teach kennel, teach his name and come/here, and do lots of socialization, lots of fun and games and socialization.

[helpful_cub]

Any dog that knows come and whoa can be hunted and is obedient. sit and down are just whoa's in other positions, they are just easier because the dog has to complete more steps to break the stay in the other positions so you can catch him easier. Whoa is stay, sit is stay, down is stay. I don't know what your definition of formal training or anyone elses so that is kind of difficult to answer. The reason people don't teach sit is because dogs sometimes revert to doing what they know in stressful situations and you don't want your dog sitting during the breaking process. Will your dog sit during the breaking process? Depends on how you teach sit, how you break the dog, your skills, and the dog. I wouldn't worry so much on commands. Get him waiting for for his food at supper time at the door when your going out etc..., teach him no or ahah, teach him go pee, teach kennel, teach his name and come/here, and do lots of socialization, lots of fun and games and socialization.

Agree. Some things are better taught in the field with real birds, I've found whoa to be one of those. Heel needs to be taught while on the move. But most of the rest can be taught in your backyard. You asked for an order, here's roughly how I do it. If the weather is bad and I'm running out of drills to do with him indoors I'll start walking him through the fetch drills again. Also keep in mind, that even though the dog knows a command inside the house, does not mean he'll follow it in the field with birds around. You have to keep drilling those commands in multiple locations with distractions until he gets it figured out.

name
no
off/down (got off the cabinets in the kitchen, off the bed, etc.)
kennel
sit (if you teach it)
lay-down (if you teach it)
come
come with whistle
stay
heel
go get'um (release command to go hunt)
field hand commands (go this way, come back, etc)
whoa
fetch/hold/drop

After all of that is done I'll start working on the versatile command "track" to let him know I want him to ground sniff something out for me. This is more for deer session so its not a big thing for bird hunting. He knows I want him to retrieve the bird after the gun shot and I give him the fetch command.

[shootfor25]

Thanks for the insight!

@ Winchey:
In regards to my mentioning "formal training," I definitely understand that everyone will have a different definition of what it actually is. I guess I understand it to be when the fun and games stop and the sole focus is on teaching the puppy a command. I realize the importance of the fun and games while training and I will not stop using that method though...

@ helpful_cub:
Thanks for your "rundown" of the commands and your advice. I have already noticed that something the pup will do in the house doesnt always immediately carry over into the field. My pup will come on command in the house...and when you take him out he doesnt listen too much....but once again he is only 10 weeks.


I am leaning towards not teaching him to SIT, but one thing I noticed with him right away is his natural tendency to SIT while waiting to go out or to eat....is this something any of you have run into with your pups? How would you recommend dealing with this?

Thanks again!

[Cajun Casey]

First thing they learn is HERE, from the time they can walk. Then, WAIT, in a variety of situations. Then, a release command. The rest is arbitrary. "Formal" is a silly concept. They never quit learning. By twelve weeks, the concept of being with you should be well established.

[kninebirddog]

I do formal shaping of what I want the dog to do in the future but I wouldn't expect a 12 week old puppy to respond well to any IE real formal training///Make stuff games where they learn and it is a good thing.

I like for them to learn to go with me in the field when I am walking and when I stop and stand still I want them to come to me and check out why I am standing still I will pet them when they come to me not just do a drive by as I will not reach out and try and catch them this will lead to the heavy veer offs later if you keep doing that...If you let them come to you and pet them and send them off then coming to you doesn't always mean the end of fun..PS i let my body language be the cues to what I want and keep the words out of it till they are responding to me and are doing what I want and the verbal comes when I can back up the command with the desire cue to get the desired results I want

[helpful_cub]

@ helpful_cub:
Thanks for your "rundown" of the commands and your advice. I have already noticed that something the pup will do in the house doesnt always immediately carry over into the field. My pup will come on command in the house...and when you take him out he doesnt listen too much....but once again he is only 10 weeks.

You'll end up re-training a command about 5 times. Each time will probably be in a different enviroment until its well hammered into the dog. It should get easier each time to revisit it. Just be pacient and keep in mind no matter how fustrating it is for you, your little one wants to make you happy and as he gets older you can expect more from him like being able to "stay" for a couple of minutes.

Locations I'm using:
1. Start in the house in a narrow hallway with zero distractions or excape points. Then he graduates to around the house with walls and doors and other obsticies.
2. Backyard and around the house.
3. Neighborhood with barking dogs and other distractions.
4. Desert field with sparrows, rabbits and other natural criters around.
5. Real game birds in the field.

I am leaning towards not teaching him to SIT, but one thing I noticed with him right away is his natural tendency to SIT while waiting to go out or to eat....is this something any of you have run into with your pups? How would you recommend dealing with this?

I won't worry to much about it. The main times I've worried about it is when I've ordered a "stay" or "heel" and he immedially sits instead of complying. To correct this, I've been reaching down and picking him back up and placing him where he should be. You'll get really good at "correcting" once you hit pointing training.

[nitrex]

First, I use clicker training beginning around 8 weeks to start building a pup with a "want to learn" attitude. You can call it want you want, formal training or play, but at 8 weeks it's all fun and positive training. I don't use age as a determining factor of when I move on in training since every pup is different. I use benchmarks. Once I have a pup reliably following the commands (here, whoa, kennel, and heel) using the clicker in the yard, I move to the e-collar.

When I move to the e-collar and demand perfect compliance, I teach "kennel" first. My reason for doing so two fold. First, dogs that become confused later in training will most often revert to the first thing they learned. If they are in the field and become confused with the whoa command, they won't try to come back to me and become sticky if I wait to teach here after kennel and whoa. Secondly, I want the dog to move away from me. I've seen too many dogs that learned "here" so well that it was hard for their owners to get them to move out and hunt.

After "kennel" I usually teach "whoa," followed by here and heel. I want "whoa" to be the command they revert to in the field and since I don't put kennels in the field, I seem to have young dogs whoaing if and when there become confused.

Nitrex

[displaced_texan]

First thing they learn is HERE, from the time they can walk. Then, WAIT, in a variety of situations. Then, a release command. The rest is arbitrary. "Formal" is a silly concept. They never quit learning. By twelve weeks, the concept of being with you should be well established.

I also start HERE immediately.
Next is BOX which I start the first night.
NO and STAY (with hand signal) are next. (I don't teach sit. If he/she will stay, that's all I care about.)
OK for a release overlays with STAY.
We also teach RELAX pretty much from the start as well.

ALL dogs learn these commands in my house (the wife has two pets.)

[crazyboy]

Any dog that knows come and whoa can be hunted and is obedient. sit and down are just whoa's in other positions, they are just easier because the dog has to complete more steps to break the stay in the other positions so you can catch him easier. Whoa is stay, sit is stay, down is stay. I don't know what your definition of formal training or anyone elses so that is kind of difficult to answer. The reason people don't teach sit is because dogs sometimes revert to doing what they know in stressful situations and you don't want your dog sitting during the breaking process. Will your dog sit during the breaking process? Depends on how you teach sit, how you break the dog, your skills, and the dog. I wouldn't worry so much on commands. Get him waiting for for his food at supper time at the door when your going out etc..., teach him no or ahah, teach him go pee, teach kennel, teach his name and come/here, and do lots of socialization, lots of fun and games and socialization.

Agree. Some things are better taught in the field with real birds, I've found whoa to be one of those. Heel needs to be taught while on the move. But most of the rest can be taught in your backyard. You asked for an order, here's roughly how I do it. If the weather is bad and I'm running out of drills to do with him indoors I'll start walking him through the fetch drills again. Also keep in mind, that even though the dog knows a command inside the house, does not mean he'll follow it in the field with birds around. You have to keep drilling those commands in multiple locations with distractions until he gets it figured out.

name
no
off/down (got off the cabinets in the kitchen, off the bed, etc.)
kennel
sit (if you teach it)
lay-down (if you teach it)
come
come with whistle
stay
heel
go get'um (release command to go hunt)
field hand commands (go this way, come back, etc)
whoa
fetch/hold/drop

After all of that is done I'll start working on the versatile command "track" to let him know I want him to ground sniff something out for me. This is more for deer session so its not a big thing for bird hunting. He knows I want him to retrieve the bird after the gun shot and I give him the fetch command.

Just curious with teaching him to track, do you have any issues with them coming across a scent trail while they're supposed to be hunting birds?

[RayGubernat]

Shoot -

From where I sit, there are only two commands that a dog needs to be a good hunting dog, whoa and here. No question to me which is first...here.

I firmly believe that one should bond wth a puppy and get them to "want ' to be with you, as a foundation...before anything else. If the dog wants to be with you and is having fun being around you, just about anything else can be worked into that scenario. If the dog does not want to be with you or if it becomes not much fun to be around you, you will have to impose your will on the dog which usually results in a dog that is perhaps about half what it could be.

I am one of those folks who believes that a puppy can and should be "trained" for the most part via "play training" which I define as short training sessions embedded and surrounded by play.

I have never had a puppy that would not come to me when I got down on one knee, clapped my hands and waved my hat. Overlaying the word "here" or "come" while the pup is charging toward you really is effective training and if it is done that way, you will likely wind up with a dog that comes arunnin' to you with its head up and happy...all the time. That is what I want and that is what I train for... a dog that WANTS to do what you want it to do.

RayG

[4dabirds]

Im in the same camp as nitrex, although I can see rays idea of bonding first with here as advantageous . The only thing about this is that to bond on the here command does not necessarily mean that you have to demand compliance to get the bonding effect. So if you are talking about what command to teach where you are formally expecting compliance the whoa command is first . This would bring you back to the kennel command because with the kennel command you are teaching the dog how to turn off the ecollar, without the e collar you can not reinforce the learned command to get compliance 100% of the time. That said there is no reason why you can not work a very young dog on a barrel to start the whoa command before or simultaneously teaching kennel and here in a non pressure atmosphere . So maybe the question should be what command should the dog be 100% compliant on that is important to the actual hunting situation and that leaves you with whoa . It is the only command a hunting dog really needs. If you have a good whoa you can go out and pick your dog up, stop the dog in an emergency, and keep your dog from chasing birds or unwanted game. Also this should be the dogs best known command because a dog that is confused or unsure of itself will revert back to what it learned last or knows best in a tense situation. The dog can not get in any trouble if it is standing still. As far as the sit command it is not really necessary to have a pointing dog sit on command so I would save the sit until my whoa was 100% and generalized this way your dog will not be sitting when you are training for a staunch point.

[ezzy333]

Im in the same camp as nitrex, although I can see rays idea of bonding first with here as advantageous . The only thing about this is that to bond on the here command does not necessarily mean that you have to demand compliance to get the bonding effect. So if you are talking about what command to teach where you are formally expecting compliance the whoa command is first . This would bring you back to the kennel command because with the kennel command you are teaching the dog how to turn off the ecollar, without the e collar you can not reinforce the learned command to get compliance 100% of the time. That said there is no reason why you can not work a very young dog on a barrel to start the whoa command before or simultaneously teaching kennel and here in a non pressure atmosphere . So maybe the question should be what command should the dog be 100% compliant on that is important to the actual hunting situation and that leaves you with whoa . It is the only command a hunting dog really needs. If you have a good whoa you can go out and pick your dog up, stop the dog in an emergency, and keep your dog from chasing birds or unwanted game. Also this should be the dogs best known command because a dog that is confused or unsure of itself will revert back to what it learned last or knows best in a tense situation. The dog can not get in any trouble if it is standing still. As far as the sit command it is not really necessary to have a pointing dog sit on command so I would save the sit until my whoa was 100% and generalized this way your dog will not be sitting when you are training for a staunch point.

Surely you are not trying to tell us whoa should be first because of an e-collar. We don't even use an e-collar till the pup is half grownup at somewhere over 6 months. I think I want my pup not knowing a single command till it is grown. What Ray is saying he is teaching here and many other things to in the normal activity of the pup. Think that is what most of us do such as kennel, leading and possibly heeling, down, and whatever you need for the pup to live comfortably within his family. Whoa may wait till the pup is a year old or more.

Ezzy

[GUNDOGS]

for me, the very very first commands taught are "come" and "here" which are life saving commands and i feel should always be priority, we teach "come" to mean come right to me and we teach "here" to mean look at me for changing direction or i want you to be closer but not necessarily right to me then later the whistle is introduced for these commands also because we hunt waterfowl as well as upland..also when you are teaching a dog(some rescues you dont know their name so you rename) or a new pup its name when you first bring it home the way you do that is by calling it to "come" to you so i cant imagine "come" or "here" not being the first command cause its the only way to teach a dog its name..i always say a dogs name first when i give a command, i know some trainers say dont use the dogs name when commanding because it will associate its name with correction but i have always done it this way because i have alot of dogs in my home at times or out in the field or bush for walks and if i have 5 dogs with me first of all i need obedience and a dog to "come" when its called or there will be chaos and thats not an option, also if i just say "come" or "here" they would all come and it may be a particular dog i want, but if i do want them all to come at once they know by the intensity i say it in and can differentiate it..so i say the name then the command and the other dogs go about their business with no confusion..I have found that each pup is different and requires different training in different orders (when it comes to obedience in the home)..what i mean is i tend to teach commands in no particular order because if i bring a pup home and immediately he/she tries jumping on the couch well than i will be working on "off " at that moment with that dog/pup..whereas some dogs and pups i bring home just never try to get on the couch so its not the first thing i teach them..if the moment i bring a dog or pup home they try grabbing my shoes i begin teaching "leave it" at that moment with that pup/dog..i heard a saying a long time ago that i like to go by as best as i can when it comes to teaching and that is a dogs brain has many locks and only at a certain age can each lock be opened so dont expect a pup to understand what a dog will its just not realistic......ruth

[ezzy333]

so i say the name then the command and the other dogs go about their business with no confusion

Exactly ny method also when you have more than one dog. And after they learn thatyou will have to continue it even if they are the only one around since they have learned that their name meaans pay attention to the command about to be given.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

Ezy what I am saying is it is irrelevent what command is taught first . i was trying to say it is not so important what is taught first but which command is most important. Framed this way the whoa command is not only the most important but the only command you really need. There is no reason why you could not put a ten week old dog on a barrel and praise and stack the dog. It has no negative association if done right. This is the early development of the whoa command. You can work on this simultaneously with here as well as other obediance commands . As far as the e-collar is concerned I use the kennel command to teach the dog how to turn off the collar.This does not mean I have to wait till the dog is at a level where he is ready to use the e-collar to start on any command. It is a complete waste of a dogs early development ,a stage where the dog is adapted to learn best, to wait to teach a command that is the most important to the dogs success in the field. When I work on these commands at an early stage I use click and treat. With this technique all of the training is positive with no corrections. The dog is trained at meal time so he is motivated to perform. In no way is the dog compelled to do any thing , so the dog is learning the commands in the best way possible.

[ezzy333]

4dabirds,

You may be right but I am ashamed to tell you that I have had a lot of dogs that never heard the term whoa. It seems to have become much more important in todays world than it was in the past. And to tell you the truth, my dogs today hear whoa a great deal more during their yard training than they ever will again. I do agree it is a good command to teach and use but it becomes strictly an emergency type command between my dogs and myself. And I try to keep them out of any situation where we need it in the field.

I understand where you are coming from but just can't agree it is that important, but it sounds to me you use it instead of come. If a dog can whoa then that dog can come just as easilyand it saves me the walk to go get it.

I'll bet there isn't one out of a hundred people on here that doesn't teach come as the first and most important command.

Ezzy

[Redfishkilla]

"I think I want my pup not knowing a single command till it is grown."

Really? If you live out in the country and don't do a lot of training with your young dog you might could get away with this but if you live in the city or would like to hunt over an obedient young dog you'll have to teach them a few commands, IMO.

At 12 weeks, teach here or come with treats in the house then in the back yard, then teach the come to whistle with treats, it helps if you have other dogs that like treats, Then teach it on your free runs etc. Heel and whoa are taught to a little older dog, all dogs are different, only use the here command a few times each day (or any command for that matter). When they get 6 or 8 months old use the e-collar to enforce the here command, lots of free runs, let pup build independence and drive. I want a new puppy but I also love my wife, oh the world of bird dogs.

[GUNDOGS]

"I think I want my pup not knowing a single command till it is grown."

Really? If you live out in the country and don't do a lot of training with your young dog you might could get away with this but if you live in the city or would like to hunt over an obedient young dog you'll have to teach them a few commands, IMO.

At 12 weeks, teach here or come with treats in the house then in the back yard, then teach the come to whistle with treats, it helps if you have other dogs that like treats, Then teach it on your free runs etc. Heel and whoa are taught to a little older dog, all dogs are different, only use the here command a few times each day (or any command for that matter). When they get 6 or 8 months old use the e-collar to enforce the here command, lots of free runs, let pup build independence and drive. I want a new puppy but I also love my wife, oh the world of bird dogs.

I think what ezzy was saying Redfishkilla is he doesnt think a dog should only be taught only 1 command such as whoa and he was referring to 4dabirds comment about whoa being the only command a hunting dog needs..by the rest of the post he is saying other commands are neceessary thats what i enterpreted it as him meaning anyway ....ruth

[4dabirds]

Ruth I think you misunderstood what I was saying. My point is that whoa is the most important command for me. My dog will whoa, come ,heal,sit lay down. He will whoa on the whistle as well as come and change direction on the whistle. He will also retrieve to hand. The only command I really need in the field while hunting or training is whoa. The key word here is need, the other commands are nice but they are not necessary. I have complete control over the dog whith whoa. Not every person gets to train and hunt on 200000 acres of grassland where you can see the dog at all times.I hunt and train in close proximity to roads and need to have a perfect whoa.

[GUNDOGS]

Ruth I think you misunderstood what I was saying. My point is that whoa is the most important command for me. My dog will whoa, come ,heal,sit lay down. He will whoa on the whistle as well as come and change direction on the whistle. He will also retrieve to hand. The only command I really need in the field while hunting or training is whoa. The key word here is need, the other commands are nice but they are not necessary. I have complete control over the dog whith whoa. Not every person gets to train and hunt on 200000 acres of grassland where you can see the dog at all times.I hunt and train in close proximity to roads and need to have a perfect whoa.

No i understood what you were saying, i was explaining to redfishkilla that the quote he was commenting on of ezzys was meaning something different..i totally understood what you were saying and whoa is taught to our dogs very young as well we use it when we go to feed them as pups and they dont get fed until they are calm and still, we use it on the checkcord when teaching them to be steady on birds and also to be very still while stacking and practicing for shows..we train close to roads as well so your are correct it is very important and i do agree with you.....ruth