Retriever Book

gcastillo · Post by **gcastillo** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:16 pm

I have read people not liking water dog or game dog for a retriever and recommending smatwork for retrievers for other people posting on the board. However I haven't read any information on exactly why people recommend one over another. I have a 3 month old lab that I would like to train in every aspect, Obedience, flushing, retrieving both upland and waterfowl. I am new to this and don't want to spend so much time and money buying all the books but I would like to find out "WHY" some people prefer one over another not just that you prefer one over another. If you can please respond to this. I have seen the Water Dog book at Barnes and Noble before .

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:26 am

Dog training can and is very simple, the bad thing about the internet is that you learn that to many people want to make a job out of it. There are several things that you can be teaching right now, in the house. Dog won't even realize you guys are working. Books are great, but the bad thing is that they dont tell you what to watch for or when to back off, or stop, hands on with training is a must. If you want I will, and can get you started with what and why, and how right there in the house. I am not gonna bother typing it out right here, because to many others jump in and you will get confused. If you are interested, you can send a message at jonesy68@alltel.net or pm me here. Thanks Jonesy's Gun Dogs train and fix all breed bird dogs, and retrievers. Berea, Kentucky, thanks again...Dave Jones, .....Jonesy

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:38 pm

i have trained only one lab in my life. i used the water dog book. the dog turned out to be a real brag dog. my only complaint with the book was when i began to run hunt tests the judges sometimes thought my dog was popping when given hand signs. He was not popping it just the way "bleep" explained to give direction then a release command. my feelings are if more people had followed water dog you would not see so many labs languishing in the back yard or in shelters.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:40 pm

i was not trying to use a censored word. see above. i was trying to use richard wolters, nickname.

Post by **pear** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:01 pm

birdshot ""bleep"" is one of the words covered by our filter so we know what you were meaning.... Thanks for the positive input on learning from books. We are a board comprised of folks sharing and learning from each other. As we communicate openly we all stand to learn from what others have experienced, both good and bad. I have found there is no hard fast rule that will work of every situation. No two dogs or people are the same. Together we can help anybody who seeks help. Hopefully we have and can prevent, dogs from finding their way to back yards and shelters. Thanks again for sharing. ..."pear"

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:25 pm

On a mark there is no need for assistance from the handler, the dog should mark, with out assistance, confidence is taught between the handler and the dog, you can explain as you want, popping is popping, anytime the dog asks for assistance on a mark, ouch judges dont favor that at all, ukc might, but akc wont, ummm I dont know, go to retriever.net, or working retriever central, go to there forums and see what they posts, maybe that will help.

Post by **Az Draht** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:46 am

I will not comment on the virtues of "Waterdog", but I will try to explain why it is not highly recommended by those with a vested interest in dog training (pros, etc)

There are a few reasons which usually pop up when a discussion of "Waterdog" arises.

The first is the belief that Richard Wolters use of timelines provides a disservice to first time trainers. They get all worked up on whether the pup is on schedule or not. This usually results in advancing through the training to fast and not setting a good foundation or going at the pups speed and learning ability.

The second reason is the fact that the book has been in print for about 40 years. It is thought to be out dated and it has not kept up with advances in training techniques and the new understandings of dog behavior (learning).

The third reason from what I understand is this. Richard Wolters was not a dog trainer. He was a outdoor writer who grabbed some techniques from a couple of different trainers and trained one dog ( I believe it was "Tar" in the book) for the purpose of writing a book.

gcastillo · Post by **gcastillo** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:41 am

Thanks Az Draht that is a very good answer. Explains why people don't like it rather than an I just don't endorse it answer. Your answer also makes sense. In your opinion what then is a good book for retriever training? I can buy 2 books like say Water Dog and another book to kind of take some good info from both books kind of ignoring the timeline.

Post by **Az Draht** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:21 am

The books that seem to be the most recommended by current retriever people are "10 Minute Retriever" by John and Amy Dahl and "Smartwork I" and "Smartwork II" by Evan Graham. Both of these are said to be easy for newbies to understand. The Smartwork series can also take you as far as you want to go (trialing, etc). They are both based off of the Rex Carr method so they can be complimentary. Evan Graham is also producing DVDs to compiment the topics in his book. Right now he is working on the puppy training dvd. It should be released soon. I have also heard Butch Goodwin has a good book and DVD package out, but I don't remember the name.

If you plan to force fetch. Evan Grahams "Smartfetch" is a highly recommeded book that covers force fetch by itself. Rather than being a chapter in a book.

Also, Jackie Mertens "Sound beginnings" for getting your pup off to a good start.

I probably wouldn't mix "Waterdog" with another book. I would either do it by itself of not at all. It really is a different system.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:21 pm

Tailcrackin, I was referring to handling on blinds. wolters made the motion, then gave the release que. To someone used to seeing the dog go on motion, wolters method looks like the dog has popped. i ran in akc and ukc hunt test, my dog had seasoned and senior passes, though i never followed through to get a title.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:22 pm

Hey guys,

This is a thread asking about your reason for recommending different books on retrieving. There have been a couple of good answers but too many are completely off the original subject. This happens so often when someone takes it upon himself to give advice instead of just answering the question asked.

We all look forward to advice when it has been asked for since this is how we all learn. The people on here with experience can teach us a lot if they answer the questions asked and post those answers here for all to see and learn from. But when you volunteer other info you are cluttering the original post too often and then we don't get the answers that were asked for.

The subjects discussed here are all good but just don't belong in this thread. No question was asked about retrieving training but just what book do you recommend and why. Lets get it back on subject so everyone has a chance to answer that question. And lets start new threads when the subject changes and make sure your questions and answers are posted for all to see so we all can learn.

Thank you for your cooperation

Ezzy