Shooting over JH dog

[subatomicstang]

I have 2 dogs. 1 year 7 months on the youngest and about 2.5 years old on the second one.
Both dogs while they havnt gotten their JH titles my youngest has 1 or 2 of his qualifying runs. Anyways they both find birds, and will get on point and wait for us to flush the birds most of the time. Sometimes the youngest one will pounce in and flush it himself. At this point in the training we dont actually shoot the birds because they arent WHOA trained with birds. So should we continue just flushing the birds and firing the pistol and letting them fly and the dog chase? Toby my youngest has been worked on with WHOA he will stand still as we walk around him throw numerous toys then release him to get them, and retrieve back. But we havnt put that WHOA to the bird side yet. So using the whoa training we do with him now, and adding in the presence of one of our pigeons is what i am thinking of doing before taking him to the field. Can you guys give me any suggestions on whats next? How have yoou guys had success in this? Also incorperating a Whistle, with the come command to use in the field? He is 100% with come if hes not in bird mode.

-Randy

[subatomicstang]

I got totally off my thought process on this post. I titled it shooting over dog? But i forgot to ask that question.

Does it do any good to take your more novice dog even if theyre not STW and down the bird and let them retrieve? Will that teach them bad habbits? Or should i not wait til they are a finished product

[Dave Quindt]

Randy,

To answer the last question, there is no reason not to kill a few birds over your unbroke dogs. If they hold point until you get there, great, but even if they point and then take the bird out it's ok to kill a few for them. You want them to begin to understand that their job is to find, point and then retrieve game.

Training is about balance, and sometimes you need to give a little to get something in return. Even though we eventually want broke dogs, we allow pups to point, bust and chase birds. This is to develop confidence and prey drive, and because those youngsters are not ready to handle formal training.

Having said that, Newton's Law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) usually does apply to dogs. It's easier to teach the 4 month old not to jump on people (after being allowed to for 8 weeks) than it is to teach the 4 year old dog not to jump on people after years of being allowed to; it just takes more time and pressure to extinguish the more established behavior. So, the more birds the dog is allowed to chase and then retrieve, the more established the behavior becomes. The more established the behavior, the more pressure it takes to retrain it. It comes back to balance; you want to kill enough birds for the dog to help the development of the dog but not so many that it will take a unusually amount of pressure to undo the behavior.

My suggestion to you would be to kill a few birds for your dogs and then stop there. More importantly, find a local pro or experienced amateur, spend time with them learning their process of steadying dogs and find a system that will work for you. What I read in your comments is training one step at a time, without a real good idea of what the next step is going to be. My advice is to become familiar with an entire system, so you understand how all of the steps come together to result in a trained dog.

The trick in this though is that you can't mix and match between programs, as they are often very different in their methodologies. In the system I use, we allow young dogs to develop their pointing and hunting instincts up to the 6-9 month age range (these are well-bred GSPs). We do kill a few birds over them to introduce the retrieve and so they start to associate the entire "sequence" of hunting, pointing, and retrieving. Once they are hunting and pointing well enough, we begin the breaking process. We staunch the dogs up (standing to the flush) using release boxes and pigeons, and also start the whoa work in the yard. When it comes time to formally break the dog to wing & shot, it's done in one process over a 6-9 week period. The dog starts as a youngster whose had no pressure on him, and 6-9 weeks later is a fully broke (and usually force fetched) dog. Because the system I use focuses on young dogs who have not had enough time to develop and ingrain bad behaviors, less pressure is needed to train for good behaviors. At the same time, because you are dealing with younger dogs that are a bit more fragile, reading how the dog handles pressure becomes more important.

Other programs take a very different approach. Some will staunch the dog not until a year or so, and then allow the dog to break at the flush for a 6-12 months, before being broke out. Some of the techniques require an older dog that can handle more pressure. Or, they will break the dog to wing, and allow him to go at the shot for a season before breaking fully.

Two different approaches that end up with the same result. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Dog training is an art, not a science, and each dog will take a slightly different path to becoming a fully trained hunting dog.

Serious birddog training is about putting pressure on dogs around birds and in the field, to get the behaviors you want. This is something that many newbies don't understand. You can throw all of the toys you want, or work obedience by itself to the dog is old and gray, but real training is accomplished by making the dog do want you want in the presence of game.

At this point, with the age of your dogs, I would stop running them in Juniors and focus on getting them broke to the level of steadiness you desire. If you want a fully broke dog, then break them to wing and shot and be done with it. Find a training who will help you get it done, and a training program you believe in.

The questions you ask are very common, but the fact that you are training two dogs, and dogs that are approaching adulthood, suggests you need to get started on a formal training program very quickly.

JMO,
Dave

[snips]

Agree with Dave. Running the 2 dogs together can only put them in a competitive mode encouraging each to want to get there first. I would separate the older one for training and focus on a steadying process. I like to let the younger ones grow up some beore steadying, and after they are showing boldness and hunting well I restrict the no of pen birds exposed to, as it can make the steadying process somewhat harder if they go on chasing down and catching them.

[subatomicstang]

The younger of the two is a Male "Toby" and the older one is a female "Hope" we got her a little less than a year ago from rescue. She is obviously the more mature one. she doesnt have a natural retrieval going for her but she is really willing to please her handler. She is more my wifes dog, and he mine but we work together on them all be it alot less than we should. We do have the perfect start perfect finish Videos so u guess we need to follow it strongly. Im however not comfortable in using the E Collars at this point. I understand their use of it but neither of us are obediant enough to use it and the timing wouldnt be there.

So taking them out to the hunting grounds it would be wise to stake one out and let it watch the other work then vice versa? I do see the point, last week he was on point, and she came charging his direction and he reacted and snatched up the live bird and i called him to bring it to me. Well as soon as he went to let go in my hand the bird flew off and he went hunting it again! I guess its nice knowing he didnt chomp it up like i saw other dogs ou there doing.

[north country guy]

HEY DAVE. THAT THERE WAS A " GREAT POST "