AKC Hunt Tests and Steadiness Training

[JoeB]

Thanks to all who responded to my questions on Steadiness Training & Repitions. Some time ago, I registered my dogs in an upcoming AKC hunt test to complete their JH titles. Now that work on steadiness is underway, and now that I have a better appreciation for the amount of time that this will take, I am growing concerned about the potential for problems at the test (which is a couple of weeks away). In retrospect, I wish that I had not registered my dogs until they were beyond this phase of their training.

Specifically, I am afraid that the dogs will encounter poorly flying quail at the hunt test, and I am afraid that they may chase and catch the birds, greatly setting back their progress toward steadiness. Is it acceptable for me to put a check cord on the dogs, after they establish point in the JH test, to prevent chasing? I know that you are allowed to collar your dog in the SH test, e.g., after your dog honors the point of the brace-mate, but I have not seen anything relating to collaring your dog in a JH test. Is this allowed?

Also, out of curiosity, what is required at the SH level with regard to steadiness? The rules booklet indicates that the "Senior hunting dog must be steady to wing on all pointed birds and must remain in position until the shot or they are released." Does "remain in position" mean that they must be completely steady (with no steps and without spinning around to follow the flight of the bird), or does in mean that they must not chase (but where some movement is acceptable)?

Joe

[wems2371]

Specifically, I am afraid that the dogs will encounter poorly flying quail at the hunt test, and I am afraid that they may chase and catch the birds, greatly setting back their progress toward steadiness.

Happened to me on both days this weekend. Cover was thin and many of the birds just walked right off into view while the dog's pointed. My girl has always been a staunch pointer, but was not ready for the temptation of "walking" birds. So there was a good point, followed by a few steps forward, followed by a point. Saw that very same thing DQ some MHs and SHs--which granted, they need to be steady. To top it off, they were lowflying soso flyers and she caught a couple of them. Normally at home, we plant birds in appropriate cover and do not have "walking" birds....and she has NEVER caught one of our training birds. It made me cringe everytime at the JH test. We are working at perfecting steady to flush at this point, so I'm hoping a couple bad days here and there won't set her back. I've got mine entered in 2 more tests the end of April.....and am wanting to wrap it up in a hurry and continue on without any more big setbacks. I am curious what others will have to say about this. Denise

[phermes1]

Is it acceptable for me to put a check cord on the dogs, after they establish point in the JH test, to prevent chasing? I know that you are allowed to collar your dog in the SH test, e.g., after your dog honors the point of the brace-mate, but I have not seen anything relating to collaring your dog in a JH test. Is this allowed?

Also, out of curiosity, what is required at the SH level with regard to steadiness? The rules booklet indicates that the "Senior hunting dog must be steady to wing on all pointed birds and must remain in position until the shot or they are released." Does "remain in position" mean that they must be completely steady (with no steps and without spinning around to follow the flight of the bird), or does in mean that they must not chase (but where some movement is acceptable)?

Joe

Check cord - no. BUT - I personally would not have a problem with you collaring your dog prior to flushing the bird. It doesn't get in the way of me evaluating your dog. Although be prepared for judges that won't allow it.

SH - the dog must remain steady through shot. Once the shot is fired, he can bust and chase.
Prior to the shot, "remain in position" will be defined differently by different judges. Marking the bird's flight is usually fine. Steps forward will hurt you but not necessarily fail you. All depends on just how much forward movement we're talking about.

[dan v]

Here's waht you'll run up against:

Section 8. Training. There shall be no training on the
grounds of a Hunting Test during the running of the event.

Now, some of the judges that have worked a few dogs might let you grasp the dog by the collar and kick the bird out. But what are you going to if it actually takes a flushing attempt?

Better to call the test secretary before the drawing and scratch the dog, refund or have your check mailed back.....and train instead.

Also, don't underestimate how easily dogs get test wise.

[RayGubernat]

Joe -

I am not intimately familiar with hunt tests but a JH need only establish and hold point until the handler gets within reasonable shooting range. I think I remember something about a five second point.

That to me, means two things. First and foremost, the dog you are going to be braced with will almost certainly not be steady to any great degree. Sooo, whichever dog initially points the bird, it is quite likely that the other dog will either bust in on the bird or join in the chase.

Second, if your dog is not the steadiest...you are going to have some training work to do after the test. That is actually kinda normal. Stuff happens. I wouldn't worry about it too awful much.

There is not very much you can do about your bracemate, however.

About the only two things you can do are to get in between your dog and the bird while keeping at least one eye trained on the dog during your flushing attempt. This tactic can help to anchor your dog a bit, since you are staring at him and second you can do some brushing up beforehand on your dog's whoa and come commands because if(heck I'll say it...WHEN) the dog chases and you can stop him and bring him back to you, that will go a long way towards demonstrating responsiveness to the handler and that should be all you need to pass. Dog found bird, dog pointed bird, dog listened to handler. Sounds like a JH to me.

RayG

[Gordon Guy]

Because of the posibility of the birds walking around in front of the dog during tests and trials you should set your dog up in training situations specifically for that. I let wing clipped pigeons walk around in front of my dogs while on the table. I then move them to the ground and let the birds get right around the dog while at whoa. Then I go out to my training area and do it again. If you play in dog events long enough this situation WILL come up in tests as a matter of fact it's quite common.

It's also good for the real world. Chukar and valley quail are notorious for running in front of a dog. Which causes untrained dogs to break and chase 'em up. If your dog has been trained to remain steady to birds walking under it's nose it will stay steady with birds 10 yards or 20 yards away.

[kylenicholas02]

Im working on the same thing as the last comment currently with my pups. Buy a harness with clip off LCS, and then attach it to a pole and string. It's nice to have a friend work the bird while you stand beside or just in front of dog. walk the bird in and out, and eventually I like to run the bird between the dogs legs.. That takes a while tho.. This is a true whoa broke dog IMO. I even start steadying dog to shot at this pt. I'll send pics next time I train.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Since you plan to go farther in testing and NAVHDA then I would skip the JH. It will do nothing for the training you have completed so far. One issue you will face is that you only have to have 1 point from your dog most judges say for about 3 secs, but chances are if you will get into multiple birds. You will have birds that will run, possibility of the other dog taking your dogs birds out, both dogs chasing a bird. Anything you can think that will mess up the training you have completed will probably happen. I ran my pup this year as early as I could get her into test 8mos and 10mos. Having not tested before I wanted to get some experience for the pup and I. Chances are I won't run another dog in JH. It is great to get people started, and for the folks who plan to go no farther in testing. While in test my dog caught multiple birds each day. She retrieved 1 bird from about 300yds, not quite to hand but close. She is also not a fan of only 15 min runs as that is not enough time to get started. JH is also frequently run on small course or field and if you dog has some range can create a challenge to keep them in judgement.

Use the time and train for MH so that you are ready to run SH. Better off to get them to where you want them and spend your time training for walking birds, dogs busting them in front of your dog, etc. If a few steps back in training won't bother you and being able to move forward from there then not a problem. How easy can you call your dog off a flushed bird that is not shot? If you can't call them off easily chances are they will catch a bird.

[JoeB]

Thanks for the responses.

The pups have been making some progress with their training on steadiness. They have been through a good amount of whoa training, and I have used the “bird in the net” and “bird on a pole” to help to get the pups steady on visible/walking birds. At this point, I would be confident that they would not jump in on walking birds if my dogs were alone in the field. However, I am pretty sure that they will break if their brace-mate tries to move in to steal the point (or take out the bird).

I am much more concerned about chasing and the potential for catching poor flying birds. Although I am working at it, my pups really want to chase.

It is interesting to me that there seems to be a fair amount of concern about chasing & catching birds in JH tests, and that there is a simple solution to this problem. If we were allowed to snap on a check cord when moving past the dog for the flush, we could easily prevent the chase & catch. If done after the point is established and held, this should not affect any aspect of the JH assessment (from my understanding). I am not sure that I can see a reason why this use of a cc is not allowed.

My pups completed a couple of legs for their JH last year, and I now wish that I finished their title last fall, before the start of training on STWSF.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Go to AKC.org under events and rules, hunt tests. You probably may want to print it off and refer to it in the future.

[Tejas]

I agree with Miller. If your intention is to break your dog steady to wing, shot and fall and your already making progress in that direction, I would not run the dog in JH. I have a dog that was in about the same place as your dog in training and everything that could go wrong did go wrong and my dog regressed a good deal. The dog was better at eight months old than it was when it completed its JH and I'm still trying to overcome some of the issues that resulted.

That experience galvanized my thoughts and this spring I entered a two year old in a hunt test for the first time, but at the Master level. There are still potential issues, but you are far less likely to deal with the bracemate issues. The dog scored four 10s and two nines and navigated the thin cover and running/poor flying birds without a problem; however, quite a bit of training had been completed on the walking/running bird on bare ground possibilities.

[JoeB]

Here's waht you'll run up against:

Section 8. Training. There shall be no training on the
grounds of a Hunting Test during the running of the event.

Now, some of the judges that have worked a few dogs might let you grasp the dog by the collar and kick the bird out. But what are you going to if it actually takes a flushing attempt?

Better to call the test secretary before the drawing and scratch the dog, refund or have your check mailed back.....and train instead.

Also, don't underestimate how easily dogs get test wise.

Wyndancer - In reading your post, I was reminded of the old (Delmar Smith?) line indicating that we are always training our dog something, and that we need to be sure that we are training the right things. Maybe I should approach the judges, citing the rule that there should be "no training on the grounds" to support placing a check cord on my dog on point. My argument would be that I do not want to train the dog to chase and catch birds!

[MillerClemsonHD]

As you said though if the brace-mate tries to take out a bird your dog will break. If they are 100yds out your dog goes on point and before you can get their your brace-mate's dog does the checkcord won't help. Based on many of the dogs I ran with in JH there were quite a few that would not catch a bird unless it flew into their mouth. I saw dogs that the handler was moving faster than they were and some that it obviously took a lot of time and work as well as multiple test to pass their JH. I also saw some pretty nice dogs run. I ran mine as early as I possibly could after 6mos based on the test near me, but wish it would have been earlier, and next time won't do it. The extra leg of SH is worth not going backwards in training. My dog would point hold, let me flush most of the birds in the test but she was going to chase them, catch them, and bring them back before moving on.

Obviously its your decision but I wouldn't do it if I were you. I almost didn't run the 2nd 2 legs after the first test and won't run another of my dogs in JH.

[CherrystoneWeims]

Maybe I should approach the judges, citing the rule that there should be "no training on the grounds" to support placing a check cord on my dog on point.

NO training devices are allowed. Period. That includes check cords.

How old is your dog? I take it that these are your first hunt tests that you have attended. Use these tests as a tool to learn what the hunt tests are all about. Use them also for getting your dog used to running in a brace with another dog in front of horses. I can't begin to tell you the amount of times I have judged dogs who are not used to horses and it impedes them during the test.

A dog may be collared so it does not interfere with a bracemate who is on point. You cannot collar your dog while it is on point. Heck how would the judge know if your dog is not going to hold point for the required time allowed for you to flush?? What if the bird is 20 ft. in front of your dog?? Are you going to drag your dog up to the bird while you attempt to flush??

If you are that concerned about ruining your dog's training for SH and his progress for steadiness then I would scratch from the tests. Once you have started training for steadiness you should not let your dog mess up and chase. Train for success. Don't set your dog up for failure.

One other suggestion. If you plan on going for Master Hunter TRAIN for Master Hunter right from the start. Don't allow breaking at the shot even though it is allowed in Senior. I see so many dogs who get into the habit of breaking and then the training is that much harder for MH. BUT run your dog in SH for YOUR experience in running a dog in the tests.

[Gordon Guy]

I believe according to the AKC rules. If you have successfully completed a JH test you cannot run in SH or MH until you earn the title, in this case the JH title, is that right? I'm talking from memory here so I maybe wrong.

[CherrystoneWeims]

I believe according to the AKC rules. If you have successfully completed a JH test you cannot run in SH or MH until you earn the title, in this case the JH title, is that right? I'm talking from memory here so I maybe wrong.

You can run a dog in SH or MH if you have a leg of JH. It's if you have a leg of MH or SH that you can't run in a level lower.

[dan v]

One other suggestion. If you plan on going for Master Hunter TRAIN for Master Hunter right from the start. Don't allow breaking at the shot even though it is allowed in Senior. I see so many dogs who get into the habit of breaking and then the training is that much harder for MH. BUT run your dog in SH for YOUR experience in running a dog in the tests.

I believe the same, but I think that if the trainer, the amateur trainer, feels his student is ready for MH it's not a bad idea to run the dog in a SH test or two. He gets to handle the dog as a MH, and if he/she feels the need gets to apply a tad more "handle" in the backing situation, at the shot and the retrieve he/she can.

[CherrystoneWeims]

One other suggestion. If you plan on going for Master Hunter TRAIN for Master Hunter right from the start. Don't allow breaking at the shot even though it is allowed in Senior. I see so many dogs who get into the habit of breaking and then the training is that much harder for MH. BUT run your dog in SH for YOUR experience in running a dog in the tests.

I believe the same, but I think that if the trainer, the amateur trainer, feels his student is ready for MH it's not a bad idea to run the dog in a SH test or two. He gets to handle the dog as a MH, and if he/she feels the need gets to apply a tad more "handle" in the backing situation, at the shot and the retrieve he/she can.

Yes that is my feeling also. When I ran my dog in SH I ran her as if she was running in MH. Because we trained like this she breezed through her SH in 5 entries of SH. Get that SH title though. I feel that it is important to finish it as it gives some credentials to the dog. And you never know if something were to happen to the dog and it couldn't finish its MH title and has a couple of legs. I have several friends that this happened to. The dogs were either killed or injured before finishing MH.

[phermes1]

One other suggestion. If you plan on going for Master Hunter TRAIN for Master Hunter right from the start. Don't allow breaking at the shot even though it is allowed in Senior. I see so many dogs who get into the habit of breaking and then the training is that much harder for MH. BUT run your dog in SH for YOUR experience in running a dog in the tests.

I agree. In the long run, it makes the job a lot easier.

And, MH can be a bit stressful for the handler. It's awfully good to get your feet wet in SH and gain a level of comfort/confidence with your dog prior to moving up.

[Tejas]

I believe according to the AKC rules. If you have successfully completed a JH test you cannot run in SH or MH until you earn the title, in this case the JH title, is that right? I'm talking from memory here so I maybe wrong.

You can run a dog in SH or MH if you have a leg of JH. It's if you have a leg of MH or SH that you can't run in a level lower.

In the interest of further clarification, per the AKC rules a dog may test in any of the levels without having a qualifying score in JH. If you want to start at SH you can, if you want to start at MH you can; however, a dog cannot test down a level from qualifying scores achieved with the exception of dogs handled by a Junior handler. See the following url http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTPNT.pdf pages 11-13.