sit or not

[Duane M]

Don't buy that line and never will. I've worked with a bunch of pointing dogs that would point birds, but had no interest in retrieving them. They had to be forced and were never good retrievers. Why? People didn't have access to, or were afraid to let them retrieve birds. They were afraid they would build tremendous retrieving desire in a dog then not know how to channel it. Hogwash. You balance the training,as you do all training. Half is handling and retrieving clipwings, half is cc work on traps. Do it this way and you won't have a problem. You have to think out of the box a little and be open to advancement.


Much agreed on that one I start mine out young with birds in the mouth, young as 8 weeks old, and they begin to associate good manners with the reward of the retreive. Matter of fact the three hardest to break dogs I have ever had in all had the same issue of never getting a bird in the mouth before I got em. I know several, known, public record, pros and breeders who do the same thing.

This girl here who i got at 9 months old was not introed to anything due to her owners personal commitments but she retreived the first several clips wings and frozens I threw for her before she ever had a live point. Her face looks like that from diving into a blackberry thicket to retreive a bird I had shot. The other pic is obviously a staunch point, BTW she don't know whoa from sic em.




This little dude was all of 7 weeks old when this was taken, it's a pigeon in his mouth in case ya wonder


Here he is a 9 months staunch enough for us to cover a couple hundred yards before I took the pic. See any lack of style or intensity?


Notice no checkcords holding em back and in case ya wonder all my dogs wear collars while in the field to avoid ever getting collarwise. The collars were turned off in other words so there aint no control issues and BTW the little man knows sit very well but never sat during a training session. Case ya wonder why I posted this off tangent post it's just to go along with Bobmans last post of different ways working and Gones quote at the start was a good example I felt

[gonehuntin']

After reading threads like this, I am convinced that many "experienced" trainers have no idea what a properly trained pointing dog can look like. And it's my opinion that ALL retriever trainers should undergo cult deprogramming prior to training their first pointing dog!!

(gonehuntin' - love ya buddy!!)
(jakemaster - absentmindedness ...or Alzheimer's!!)

That big foot of yours is gettin' deeper and deeper in your throat. You backwards pointer folk just keep watchin' this thread and maybe you'll learn that there's a whole brave new world out there.

[gonehuntin']

Here one an ol' and cantankerous retriever trainer trained.



Shoot!!!!! I forgot that Yawal only thinks dogs with tales have class and style!!!!!!!!







Lora a' mighty, what's gonna happen next? They even sit, lie down and have retrieved birds form 8 weeks on!
Will wonders never cease!!!!!!!

Sorry Ross, don't have any that point the moon and look like banannas!!

[slistoe]

I really don't know what has these folks all in a knot. Did anyone here imply that it was impossible to have any dog, anywhere learn sit without having serious problems with style and intensity on point? Hogwash. Pure unadulterated imagination on their part.

What I don't get is the unabashed egotism to suggest that any one of us who has experienced a dog trained first to sit that created additional training problems for that dog in steadiness training is somehow an inferior trainer. Along with this is shown the outright refusal to admit that somewhere, sometime there is a dog where this will become an issue.

Real? Yes.
Infrequent? Yes.
Worth worrying about? Depends.

[Yawallac]

gonehuntin' wrote:
Lora a' mighty, what's gonna happen next? They even sit, lie down and have retrieved birds form 8 weeks on!
Will wonders never cease!!!!!!!

Sorry Ross, don't have any that point the moon and look like banannas!!

No problem. We both made our points. I'm comfortable with my position.

Happy hunting!!

[Don]

Hey Ross,

Been a hoot budy. I get to where I can't do my own, I'm sending them to you! We do have a lot in common.

[gonehuntin']

I What I don't get is the unabashed egotism to suggest that any one of us who has experienced a dog trained first to sit that created additional training problems for that dog in steadiness training is somehow an inferior trainer. Along with this is shown the outright refusal to admit that somewhere, sometime there is a dog where this will become an issue.

Real? Yes.
Infrequent? Yes.
Worth worrying about? Depends.

That's what everyone here is saying. DO NOT TEACH SIT AS THE FIRST COMMAND. We all agree on that.

[Don]

I really don't know what has these folks all in a knot. Did anyone here imply that it was impossible to have any dog, anywhere learn sit without having serious problems with style and intensity on point? Hogwash. Pure unadulterated imagination on their part.

What I don't get is the unabashed egotism to suggest that any one of us who has experienced a dog trained first to sit that created additional training problems for that dog in steadiness training is somehow an inferior trainer. Along with this is shown the outright refusal to admit that somewhere, sometime there is a dog where this will become an issue.

Real? Yes.
Infrequent? Yes.
Worth worrying about? Depends.

I think yawallac made a good point in not encouraging first timers to do that. Problem is as I see it, it is so easy to do that a first timer could screw it up. It's a command best taught gently. But there are various other commands that lend themselves to being done wrong and screwing up the dog also. As GH mentioned, some poeple can teach their dog to bolt teaching here. So I don't think any command should be avoided but rather the trainer needs to learn to train without screwing up reguardless of how simple the command. I used to know a guy that screwed up his dog so bad he'd turn it loose and it would simply run away, circle and go back to the truck and wait with the guys wife. Now and again it would get on a bird and was obviously pressured hard. But the dog never sat, rather as he approached the dog would take out the bird and run off. So it doesn't really matter what the command is, you put to much pressure on the dog and your gonna get a reaction. Myself, I'd rather than to run off the dog sat there. That is not so hard to over come. I can also read the difference between pressure and confussion really easy with the dog sitting there and that tells me what to do.

[remmy]

My first three GSP's learned to sit and never had a problem sitting on point. Although, I have stopped teaching sit anyway.

I trained two dogs for my buddy...both were littermates. Neither one was ever taught sit but they both ending up sitting on point...now why is that?

We had this discussion a while back on here and I believe it's because sitting is a dog's default whether taught or not. Just think, out of the most common commands we teach, what can a dog do on his own that he has not been trained? They can sit!

Now I don't agree or disagree about teaching a dog to sit. I think it just depends on the dog itself.

[Don]

Let's not go through this again!