Training without a launcher?

[jsc11700]

How do you guys train without bird launchers? I cannot afford a remote launcher right now but I do have plenty of birds. The way I have been doing it is with a buddy. We plant the birds and work the dogs up to them on a check cord until they scent the bird and point. Then my partner will walk up and nudge the bird to fly. The problem with this is that the dogs think this is an invitation to help flush the birds. I have been using the perfect Start/Finish dvd's and they say the way to stop that is to use a remote launcher and spring the bird the instant the Dog moves, but as I metioned I don't have a launcher. Anyone have anyother suggestions until I can afford a remote launcher?

[Dennmor]

I'm assuming you're using a check cord on the pup,right?
When the dog goes for the "flushed bird" just hold him back and give the whoa command. Don't shoot the bird or even pay anymore attention to it and straight away turn towards the next planted bird, letting him know that if he moves and it flies off, then it's gone! It sounds like he really wants the bird, he'll be able to figure out that he only gets it when he holds. I would think it should be an easy fix. But then, you might have to do a whole session where he doesn't get one. Or more.
Denn

[topher40]

This is one instance why I like to whoa break a dog before I start putting the manners on them around birds. If the dog is truly whoa broke then once the dog establishes point you can tell them whoa. Then send your helper in to flush the bird. If the dog moves, even a foot, pick him back up and set him back till he will stand. Your lucky though, you have a helper! You can get more done on a budget as long as you have good help! Good luck!

[RayGubernat]

I agree with Chris -

My youngsters are whoa broke in the yard before I put them on birds. I finsih whoa breaking them with a prong collar and checkcord and proof them with it in the yard.

When they are very relaible in the yard, typically 9-12 months of age or older, I introduce them to birds in the field. The dog is wearing the prong collar and I have the dog on a checkcord which is attached to the dog's regular collar.

I typically will bring the dog in crosswind to the bird. Since I know where the bird is, I can watch the dog for any sign that it scented the bird. I want the dog to stop and stand the instand it enters the scent cone. That is where launchers shine. If the dog takes one more step, up goes the bird.

If you don't have a launcher but have an assistant, the assistant can carry a bird bag and toss a bird if necessary. A finger pointed skyward is a typical signal and if the assistant is watching the dog intently as well they will know when a bird should be tossed.


Let's go back to the original setup and assume the dog points the bird at first scent...most do.

I would then walk up the checkcord very quietly and switch the checkcord from the flat collar to the prong collar and quietly walk back. The checkcord is held such that there is a generous droop in the rope, but not too much slack. Take a firm hold of the checkcord and have the assistant go in and flush. Gloves are recommended for this part of the training. If the dog jumps in, pull back on the cord and the dog will come to a screeching halt. SAY NOTHING!! Quietly go back up the checkcord, physically pick the dog up and walk it back to about where it was originally pointing, place it down gently, stroke the dog up and style it up and make it stand. SAY NOTHING!! After a few minutes(actual---by- the- watch minutes) , have your asistant walk in and toss a bird into the air. If the dog stands, walk up quietly, stroke the dog a few times, then pat him and physically pick him up and walk away with him. A low, quiet "good dog!" would be appropriate at this juncture. Put the dog away for at least an hour or so, better still put him up for the day. You want to quit with him remembering doing it right.

If the dog dives in again...instant replay... pull up, stop hard, pick up and replace. This time however, after having the dog stand for two or three minutes, just clip the cord back onto the flat collar and heel the dog out of the field, saying nothing whatsoever.

If you do the prep work in the yard, it would not be at all unusual for a dog to stand its first or second bird. Once the dog stands its birds, it is repetition, change scenarios, reinforce, reinforce, change scenarios, reinforce until the dog is reliable enough to trade the prong collar and checkcord in for an e-collar.

I would recommend that you spend a week conditioning the dog to respond to the checkcord and prong(or pinch type) collar.

I know some folks use e-collars instead of pinch or prong collars. I am not comfortable with them at this point in a dogs' training. If I were a more accomplished trainer or had tons of dogs to work through, I might try going directly to the e-collar.

I have seen a number of trainers using a flank hitch instad of a prong collar when steadying dogs. I have not used this technique myself, so i cannot recommend or explain how to do it, but it certainly looks promising and may even be better than what I am currently doing. Maybe next time.

Hope this helps.

RayG

[wfkgsps]

Good posts...RayG you brought up a question for me..

put the dog away for at least an hour or so, better still put him up for the day.

In my situation, I do have two launchers. My dog sees two birds...carry him away as you described, then we break and he sees two more. How many bird contacts is too many?
Thanks

[topher40]

wfk-
Thats a good question and I dont think anyone can honestly give you a number without being full of BS. I can however tell you what I do and it works for me. When I am working on whoa breaking then steadying a dog on birds I train each dog twice a day. If they are being steadied and ready for bird work they will see around 3-6 birds a day depending on how they do. It depends on how they do since I have plenty of dogs to work with and if they arent up to the task that day I will put them up till the next, theres no sense in fighting them. You can always overwork a dog but laying off a day wont hurt a thing.

[jsc11700]

Ray,
Thats some good advice. I do have one concern though. Won't using a pinch collar when training on birds cause a negative association to birds or will they just relate the pinch to chasing? I am open to any one that has thoughts on this as well.

[RayGubernat]

Wfk -

I can only telly what i do and what seems to work for me. On the pups first encounters with birds, I most definitely ascribe to the theory of less is more. If the pup does it perfectly on their first bird...that is all the birds they see that day. If I have to correct a chasing dog and it stands fo the flier or bird in second trap, that dog is also probably done for the day as well. The key is to always quit a winner..never take achance on going backward.

As the youngster progresses, I may work them on as many as thee birds, but I am always ready to quit. I alsmost never have a dog on more than three birds in any one workout. You really have to watch the dog's body language and if the dog is showing any signs whatsoever of unease, you need to stop...lighten up and do something else that the dog truly enjoysa and does well. again...quit a winner.

JSC -

Yes it can. Jerking a dog off its feet with a prong or pinch collar can have negative consequences. That is why I feel that conditioning and whoa breaking in the yard before you get the pup into birds, is so very important. They learn that the cue from the collar is an obedience thing. They also are pre-conditioned to the pressure and I think that helps a lot to avoid negative consequences. My guys seem, usually, to associate the pinch with the fact that they chased and that's all. But again, you need to kow your dog and watch the body language.

RayG

RayG

[luke0927]

I have some launchers orderd but do not have them yet....I am whoa breaking the dog....I have the dog stopping on whoa in the field, and have now started making the dog stand still while i drop the birds and they fly off....Since i do not have a helper this is what i do...

I will put the dog on the CC and tie it to my 4 wheeler the dog has a good 10' off the 4 wheeler.... I will Whoa the dog (the dog is collar contitioned if he moves after he is whoa'd stimulation is on he knows to turn it off he must stand still). I Have the pigeons in my bag walk around and drop the birds....I have only done a couple sessions and the dog is standing still and watching the birds fly off...I will work closeer and closer to the dog....Then when i have my lauchers i will start working the dog into the scent cone and steadying them to the flush and shot.....basically just like they do in the PS/PF DVD's

[wfkgsps]

laying off a day wont hurt a thing.

You are exactly right...because of work, rain, and travel, I had to take 10 days off of training, but my dog progressed when I got back too him. He was actually better than when I last trained.
Thanks
RayG

The key is to always quit a winner..never take achance on going backward.

I agree.